Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2023: “A Red Dragon”

[Havok83]

I don't want Steve Orlando touching Jean again, that one quote from Leah Williams has done more damage to the perception of Jean's ability than anything ever shown in the actual comics!

Context? 10char

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Edit: I gotcha now, CB. Just saw.


Steve Orlando said on Twitter that Emma is a better telepath than Jean.

CB is referring to this quote from Leah about "Jean is a sledgehammer, Emma is a scapel" or something to that effect. Saying Emma has to be more skilled than Jean because Jean is more broadly powerful.

Personally, I'll be glad if someone with an interest in Jean moves us along from the Jean/Scemma dynamic entirely. There is nothing more dry or as heavily forced.

I don't want Steve Orlando touching Jean again, that one quote from Leah Williams has done more damage to the perception of Jean's ability than anything ever shown in the actual comics!

Steve Orlando is writing Jean?

What did Leah say? She's a Cyke fan who stans via Emma, so we know not to take what she has to say about Jean with much weight. Then there was that issue she wrote where Jean was against using TP to protect Mutant Resurrection. Yuck.

[Celestialbodies]

Context? 10char

Edit: I gotcha now, CB. Just saw.


Steve Orlando said on Twitter that Emma is a better telepath than Jean.

CB is referring to this quote from Leah about "Jean is a sledgehammer, Emma is a scapel" or something to that effect. Saying Emma has to be more skilled than Jean because Jean is more broadly powerful.

Personally, I'll be glad if someone with an interest in Jean moves us along from the Jean/Scemma dynamic entirely. There is nothing more dry or as heavily forced.



Steve Orlando is writing Jean?

What did Leah say? She's a Cyke fan who stans via Emma, so we know not to take what she has to say about Jean with much weight. Then there was that issue she wrote where Jean was against using TP to protect Mutant Resurrection. Yuck.

Thanks Kitty!

I only meant in general, this demonstrates how little writers really study characters, this isn't even an opinion as a fan of Jean. I've literally combed through various X-telepath feats and there's nothing Emma or even Xavier have done that Jean hasn't matched. It's frustrating because this is a woman trained by the most skilled telepath on the planet but her own ability can be be downplayed. I mentioned, Leah because readers have taken her sentiments regarding Jean/Emma as fact. It doesn't help that she's tried to force her opinions on Jean's ability into the comics, the example Kitty mentions and in TOM, where Jean needed Emma help to reach a part of Erik's mind.

[MechaJeanix]

It seems like an accepted X-men fact that Emma has the skill and Jean has the raw power. The idea originated from Leah Williams and pretty sure it was posted on her tumblr maybe twitter too. JDW picked it up and mentioned it in a few places (twitter and maybe a few interviews), and Connor host of the Cerebro podcast has also repeated it. So it kind of stuck.

Claremont had Emma state she was more skilled than Rachel in the X-men Reload, where it was said Rachel's powers were off the charts. Maybe that inspired or informed Leah's thoughts about the differences in Jean and Emma's telepathy, but who knows.

At any rate both Jean and Emma have been shown to be skilled and capable telepaths. Jean often does beat Emma when they clash (though that is adult Jean, Emma was able to impact Teen Jean's powers though Teen Jean also was shown to overpower Emma at other moments).

It is annoying but I think folks wanted to give Emma something and there you have it. I do hate that it has become an accepted thing and it is not from the actual source material. That is my main gripe, and not so much that some fans and creators want a special distinction for Emma Frost.

Jean was trained by Xavier who is very skilled and thanks to her Teen Jean years she has training from Emma as well.

[Wiccan]

Edit: I gotcha now, CB. Just saw.


Steve Orlando said on Twitter that Emma is a better telepath than Jean.

CB is referring to this quote from Leah about "Jean is a sledgehammer, Emma is a scapel" or something to that effect. Saying Emma has to be more skilled than Jean because Jean is more broadly powerful.

Personally, I'll be glad if someone with an interest in Jean moves us along from the Jean/Scemma dynamic entirely. There is nothing more dry or as heavily forced.



Steve Orlando is writing Jean?

What did Leah say? She's a Cyke fan who stans via Emma, so we know not to take what she has to say about Jean with much weight. Then there was that issue she wrote where Jean was against using TP to protect Mutant Resurrection. Yuck.

Well, at least he said this after lol.
https://twitter.com/thesteveorlando/...25545305292893

[Havok83]

Edit: I gotcha now, CB. Just saw.


Steve Orlando said on Twitter that Emma is a better telepath than Jean.

CB is referring to this quote from Leah about "Jean is a sledgehammer, Emma is a scapel" or something to that effect. Saying Emma has to be more skilled than Jean because Jean is more broadly powerful.

Personally, I'll be glad if someone with an interest in Jean moves us along from the Jean/Scemma dynamic entirely. There is nothing more dry or as heavily forced.



Steve Orlando is writing Jean?

What did Leah say? She's a Cyke fan who stans via Emma, so we know not to take what she has to say about Jean with much weight. Then there was that issue she wrote where Jean was against using TP to protect Mutant Resurrection. Yuck.

Oh thanks. That may have been something that was true 30 years ago but not anymore. Jean has grown so much as a telepath since then especially in this era where that power has been recieved far more focus

[Mercury]

Gillen put a nail in the “scalpel and sledgehammer” coffin.



Considering the fact that Omega Level mutants are born with an undefinable upper limit of their power classification—i.e., Jean was born an Omega Level mutant, Emma was not—I think it's clear Emma is talking about skill here.* After all, Jean’s openness—that is, her empathy or willingness to be “touched, and touched profoundly”—makes her a more versatile and skillful telepath who is not hindered or inhibited by her fears or a need “to achieve perfection.”

Gillen understood perfectly what he was underscoring here.

*EDIT: Interpreting Emma’s statement as being about power doesn't make in-story logical sense. A mutant cannot will themselves into becoming Omega Level; they're born that way. However, mutants can develop and increase their skill set within the bounds of their power levels. In other words, Emma choosing to be more open and empathic, like Jean, wouldn't put her “quite up there with Jean” in terms of power, only skill.

[The Thunderbird]

Considering the fact that Omega Level mutants are born with an undefinable upper limit of their power classification—i.e., Jean was born an Omega Level mutant, Emma was not—I think it's clear Emma is talking about skill here. After all, Jean’s openness—that is, her empathy or willingness to be “touched, and touched profoundly”—makes her a more versatile and skillful telepath who is not hindered or inhibited by her fears or a need “to achieve perfection.”

Gillen understood perfectly what he was underscoring here.

That goes quite a long way explaining one of the reasons why everyone in universe seems to love Jean so much. I would think that it would be hard to like a telepath, they can easily access your most protected secrets, embarrassing moments, and shameful regrets. And yet Jean manages to be so popular with everyone.

[Mercury]

That goes quite a long way explaining one of the reasons why everyone in universe seems to love Jean so much. I would think that it would be hard to like a telepath, they can easily access your most protected secrets, embarrassing moments, and shameful regrets. And yet Jean manages to be so popular with everyone.

True. Also, read my addendum, i.e., edit.

[PyroFN]

Doubt it.

I don’t mean to come off rude, but I will have to be blunt to say what I mean. I apologize if it comes off disrespectful or rude.

I am flat-out saying you are wrong. When you are existing in a space outside time and space, then you aren’t operating within the confines of the timestream. That is exactly where Jean Grey and the mutants are.

I am not being hyperbolic when I say that “Jean can literally wake up late ten minutes before lunch, have millions of years of character development, and make it on time for lunch”.

That is just literally how the White Hot Room operates. Convenient and deus ex machina-y? Yes. But it’s not something you can logic away when the very confines of the space is meant to break all forms of logic and science.

They are having the JG mini tie into Immortal X-men.

Okay? We are operating on the logic of a god. Just because the mutants are experiencing everything with Jean does not mean that they are existing in a temporal linear space. It’s the exact opposite. It’s a space where Jean creates anything and everything from nothing and edits things as she wishes. We have literally seen her edit time form this space and communicate through time from there.

The mere act of having a leisure conversation with Cyclops is mere child’s-play to her. It’s that level of power that sort of keeps her from coming back to life, which is why there are Jean fans who get real nervous with her and Phoenix being in the same room.

I really don't think they are simultaneously doing that here in X-men with something so contradictory. It unnecesarily confuses the audience and I don't think thats the route they are going

Lol, don’t look at me! When you are basically god of your realm, you don’t follow the rules. I am just reporting where my research got me to learn about that place. I will say Jean probably at least is already done with her mental breakdown by the time this X-Men issue is out. So, you are right in the sense that Jean probably is okay now, but Jean very much can still contact Scott from that realm directly afterwards. She has done it before after all.

Jean very literally is one of those playground kids who throws out “black hole” in a rock-paper-scissors match after the other kids have been cheating with “gun” or “bazooka”. Lol!

[Mercury]

Love you to bits, PyroFN, but Phoenix is not a god or goddess; she is a primal force—“a primal force second only to that of the Creator,” if I want to get specific and Claremontian.

Nevertheless, keep on preaching the gospel!

[Celestialbodies]

Love you to bits, PyroFN, but Phoenix is not a god or goddess; she is a primal force—“a primal force second only to that of the Creator,” if I want to get specific and Claremontian.

Nevertheless, keep on preaching the gospel!

Tbf, former Phoenix host have compared themselves to God's and I'm almost certain there's been mentioning of the Phoenix power being god-like.

[PotniaTheron]

I remember when JDW, Gillen, and Ewing all emphasized in interviews that SOS is NOT an alternate universe. (In fact, this event did occur in the 616 reality before the Moira engine was activated to restart the reality.)

Orlando tweeted that SOS is an alternative universe.

1787B706-C2C1-4EDD-8868-446C0828AF86.jpg
95229493-3382-454C-A11E-FA4D8FAE1F38.jpg

JDW: Sins of Sinister is NOT an alternate universe
Orlando: Sins of Sinister is an alternate universe

He pretty much contradicted the whole X-Offcie...

I thought he was weird at that time. He is not the writer or editor responsible for this event at all.
Does he really think what he's doing is reasonable?

What happened this time is similar to what happened before. He dragged Jean and Emma into his own war with Wanda stans for no apparent reason. It is very crazy. Unlike Wanda, Jean and Emma both are not his characters. I don't understand why he suddenly drags two characters who have nothing to do with this.

He said to all those who were unhappy with what he had done: "It is not the correct way to interact with a writer".

But first, his irresponsible attitude doesn't make him look like a writer.

[Devaishwarya]

Jean is OL. Emma isn't.
Emma employs her telepathic skill subtly but devastatingly. Jean can do subtle but clearly prefers subatomic displays also with devastating results.
Why is this verses nonsense between the two a thing? They are two very distinct telepathic characters equally powerful in their own right.

[Soulsword323]

I understand people's frustrations. I'm not exactly fond of the "sledgehammer, scalpel" comparison, or how it's had such an impact on fans and writers when it it isn't really supported by the books.

Just recently we saw Jean implant false memories into someone's mind at the Gala. Something that took a lot of finesse to achieve IMO (particularly with Jean dying while doing so). We've also seen Emma preforming stunts on a global scale at times. I don't think it holds too much weight, but I get the concern. I hope it doesn't bleed it's way into the films.