Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2023: “A Red Dragon”

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Any non-Jean Phoenix is just as forced as the Inhumans. They need to stop.

Because it's hers. Plain and simple. We wouldn't be asking the same thing of Storm (who remained an interesting character when she was depowered). She's powerful enough with just lightning, but we want the full scope of Storm, which means she can do so much more. We wouldn't ask it of Xavier if he lost his telepathy. We wouldn't ask it of Colossus if he could no longer turn to steel. Emma Frost is a very skilled telepath, and was only that for a very long time. They decided to give her a secondary mutation. Did she need it? No. But it suits her. We could go on and on about characters, and their refined abilities over the years. But Phoenix is Jean's, and should have ONLY been Jean's.

[Wiccan]

I would have liked them to have not taken the "now and forever" iconic line away from her (more dumb avoidance) but at least she and the bird are hanging out.

The series went through effort to say a lort without saying much at all.

I thought the way she said that was interesting, kinda funny and a bit meta. Cause at the end of the day the "Now and forever" line has kind of lost all its meaning, because whether we like it or not, it's just not true. Jean has the Phoenix, and then she doesn't, and then she does, and then she doesn't. Other characters have become hosts and they all say it too. It's just a memorable catchphrase that writers can't help but use. So Jean being kinda bored and dismissive, like she's saying "so what, we're on that shit again? I mean, who knows" makes sense. I think she's kind of on that mindset of going a step at a time, she's taking the Phoenix again now but who knows what's to come.

And I think the "lesson learned" was that she shouldn't be doubting herself, obsessing with the past and thinking things went wrong because of one of her choices. The Phoenix understands her even when she doesn't and has been trying to lead her into the right direction, but without forcing it into her. It doesn't land perfectly because it's an issue that she only has had as of the start of this mini, but it's a decent message.

[Hakka84]

Because it's hers. Plain and simple. We wouldn't be asking the same thing of Storm (who remained an interesting character when she was depowered). She's powerful enough with just lightning, but we want the full scope of Storm, which means she can do so much more. We wouldn't ask it of Xavier if he lost his telepathy. We wouldn't ask it of Colossus if he could no longer turn to steel. Emma Frost is a very skilled telepath, and was only that for a very long time. They decided to give her a secondary mutation. Did she need it? No. But it suits her. We could go on and on about characters, and their refined abilities over the years. But Phoenix is Jean's, and should have ONLY been Jean's.

Love this post.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

AND ANOTHER THING: this situation where the Phoenix is now some separate Rocket Raccoon thing that's gonna be making wisecracks or whatever is very dim.

Are we going to meet Jean's aunts, Caroline Rhea and Beth Broderick, next?

I thought the way she said that was interesting, kinda funny and a bit meta. Cause at the end of the day the "Now and forever" line has kind of lost all its meaning, because whether we like it or not, it's just not true. Jean has the Phoenix, and then she doesn't, and then she does, and then she doesn't. Other characters have become hosts and they all say it too. It's just a memorable catchphrase that writers can't help but use. So Jean being kinda bored and dismissive, like she's saying "so what, we're on that shit again? I mean, who knows" makes sense. I think she's kind of on that mindset of going a step at a time, she's taking the Phoenix again now but who knows what's to come.

And I think the "lesson learned" was that she shouldn't be doubting herself, obsessing with the past and thinking things went wrong because of one of her choices. The Phoenix understands her even when she doesn't and has been trying to lead her into the right direction, but without forcing it into her. It doesn't land perfectly because it's an issue that she only has had as of the start of this mini, but it's a decent message.

I'm not feeling it, Wic. The regression is doing...nothing. It's flat.

[Exodus]

What do you guys make of the quick moment when Jean manifests a pink Phoenix in issue 4? Is this foreshadowing what she will transform the Phoenix Force into next?

The White Hot Room is broken? The Phoenix Force is dead. I am wondering where they are going with this. I personally hope that the Force will indeed die and Jean will rebirth a different version of the force. Maybe not as ridiculously overpowered. ;-) Still don't know how any writer can write X-Men stories with Jean controlling the White Hot Room.

[Charybdis4]

You're too cute sometimes.





Beautiful story and tattoo!



:Hug:

Thank you all for sharing. The diversity of Jean's fans is a beautiful thing. I'm glad to see it highlighted here.



Thank you for chiming in! Also, I don't think anyone will interpret your post as snarky.

Personally, I don't "need" or necessarily want Jean "to become the Phoenix again." I only want her history and identity as Phoenix preserved and respected (if that makes sense), which I think this miniseries has done beautifully. That said, my reasons for wanting this are clear:

(1) I adore Claremont's original impetus for creating Phoenix: It was simply meant to be the next evolutionary step in the progression of Jean's abilities, which were hinted at as far back as X-Men #48, in which she was described as having "infinite mental powers" by Computo's biosensor-equipped artificial intelligence. It also served as a symbol of her empowerment and break-away from the patriarchal conceits, constructs, and constrictions that hindered her and other female comic book characters. After all, she was conceived as "the first female cosmic superhero" in Marvel's canon, and the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Sagas became and are still used as templates for the development of myriad female and male characters. Jean remaining Phoenix, whether in essence or appearance, upholds this important development in the history of female comic book characters.

(2) The way in which Jean's abilities—again, symbolic of her empowerment and autonomy—were stripped from her was, to put it mildly, offensive. The impetus here was rooted in conscious and subconscious misogyny. Moreover, she was turned into a victim of physical and psychological abuse but framed as a woman who couldn't handle power—an odious trope—while her abusers were absolved of their crimes and the profoundly pernicious impact said crimes had on her without explanation. Rather than recognize that she had been traumatized, she was simply charged with being cruel, crazy, incompetent, and incapable of handling her vast newfound abilities, which, to add insult to injury, completely contradicted the stories that came before (e.g., her fight with Firelord and ability to repair the M'Kraan Crystal). Ultimately, it's a gross display of victim-blaming. Jean remaining Phoenix, again, whether in essence or appearance, is a necessary response to the aforementioned misogyny and victim-blaming that also serves to validate the plight of victims, the boons and hazards to be found on the journey toward healing, and the strengths and capabilities of women as a social group or category and human beings as a whole, both blighted by and protected from abuse.

(3) Phoenix as a concept brims with storytelling possibilities that most fans of other characters would be eager to have intrinsically connected to their favorite characters.

Great answer - thank you!

[Charybdis4]

Because it's hers. Plain and simple. We wouldn't be asking the same thing of Storm (who remained an interesting character when she was depowered). She's powerful enough with just lightning, but we want the full scope of Storm, which means she can do so much more. We wouldn't ask it of Xavier if he lost his telepathy. We wouldn't ask it of Colossus if he could no longer turn to steel. Emma Frost is a very skilled telepath, and was only that for a very long time. They decided to give her a secondary mutation. Did she need it? No. But it suits her. We could go on and on about characters, and their refined abilities over the years. But Phoenix is Jean's, and should have ONLY been Jean's.

Completley agree the power should stay with the Grey family. I feel a bit nauseous when every Marvel character gets a chance with it!! Its been diluted so badly by some writers & editors.

[Icefanatic]

My thoughts from the series discussion thread:

I went into this series with more excitement and anticipation than I have had for a comics in quite some time. Did this issue, and the overarching series, fully satisfy me? No. Was it supposed to? No, I don't think it was.

This series has functioned much as a prologue and an appetizer for a story to come. It also served to get Jean; and specifically in her relationship with the Phoenix to a better place after they parted in Phoenix: Resurrection, and it archived that. We also got beautiful art and solid characterization, easily some of the best the character has ever had. We got answers to long-held questions by fans, but what if Jean had... And Jean answered those questions, for us and for herself.

Would I have liked something more from this story? Sure, but what I want is likely in the story to come and that's probably a good point to leave readers in this final issue, effectively fans are in the same place Jean is in the story and that's a good thing.

Bring on Immortal X-Men and X-Men Forever!

[Grey]

Copied from the review thread

I also wanted to add how happy I am that time displaced jean had a fairly big part in issues 1 (mostly) and 4. It’s no secret bendis’s jean was my favorite iteration. To see her so prominently revisited, and almost be an advisor or “voice” for adult jean to listen to, really solidified her place in the jean mythos.

It doesn’t matter to me whether others see her as important as I do. But seeing it acknowledged through storytelling by different writers reslly makes it feel more “official” and here to stay. I.e. when talking of jeans past- time displaced jean will be among the great versions such as marvel girls and ohoenix.

[Havok83]

Because it's hers. Plain and simple. We wouldn't be asking the same thing of Storm (who remained an interesting character when she was depowered). She's powerful enough with just lightning, but we want the full scope of Storm, which means she can do so much more. We wouldn't ask it of Xavier if he lost his telepathy. We wouldn't ask it of Colossus if he could no longer turn to steel. Emma Frost is a very skilled telepath, and was only that for a very long time. They decided to give her a secondary mutation. Did she need it? No. But it suits her. We could go on and on about characters, and their refined abilities over the years. But Phoenix is Jean's, and should have ONLY been Jean's.

I dont think those are quite the same comparisions. Really what powers is Jean missing without it outside of eradicating timelines? Jean has been shown multiple times to be able to most of the things she could with the PF without it. She isnt a character that is crippled by not being bonded to it. What it gives her more than anything is an iconic imagery and branding. I dont think it really does as much for her powerwise

[SugarMan]

Posted in the JG4 thread…


“Shall we do it together?”

“There may be something we can do…together”

“But what comes next..be it life or death..we face it together.”


They drove the point home 3 times towards the end. The old band is back “together.”

[Omega_DCD]

"Because it's hers" is such a perfect answer...that has been many of our viewpoints for decades...the retcon did much more than just try to rob Jean of her power and potential...that whole UXM 97-137 period was meant to also be Jean's growth as a woman full stop. Deciding to step away from being a full time X-Man, loving Scott but forging some independence away from him, Xavier, the school...making a life for herself, forging new relationships (Misty Knight...and eventually the Muir Island crew)...she does essentially return to the X-Men post shuttle/Phoenix incident, which allows her to continue developing and deepening her relationships with the new 2nd Gen X-Men...all of which makes for the profound emotional impact as they see and feel Jean changing (stoked in no small manner by the Hellfire Club's long term and insidious manipulations), culminating in her transformations into the Black Queen and Dark Phoenix...yet they fight with all their hearts and souls to try to save JEAN...the JEAN they've come to love during this time.

The retcon is the first cut...which made for thousands of cuts to come...she had her power stripped, her complexity stripped, her relationships partially erased, her iconography bandied about, her identity and self-image regressed (Marvel Girl...Apocalypse's manifesto touches on this), her personality chopped up and split among others for a time, even her look...she spends most of the 90s tucked under Xavier's psychic shadow (years and years of "2nd only to Xavier")...even her non-Phoenix unique attributes slowly but surely became obnoxiously ubiquitous (almost every psychic mutant...being or becoming a dual-psion...i think single psions may actually be more rare than dual psis these days)...even as someone who pioneered being an Omega level mutant(with Bobby), the start of the Krakoa era couldn't help but make her share the distinction with friggin' Quentin Quire, while downgrading her TK(which thankfully has been all but irrelevant by actual stories and feats).

It just...gets EX-HAUST-ING...to see everything taken from a character and thrown onto others...it's like that nightmare Maddie had of all of her features being stripped away...even her roles as headmistress and romantic partner of Cyclops...we won't even get into that.

Lately, certain "creators", keep trying to downplay Jean...now that she's shown to be incredibly powerful, for some reason her skill level gets called into question...that godawful, and erroneous, Hammer/Scalpel analogy...why does one impact the other? Who is the scalpel to Xavier's hammer? Who is the scalpel to Magneto's hammer? Let Jean be great in all the ways she's been shown to be...her journey has earned her that right.

Which other X-character has had as many intrinsic traits stripped and cloned and disseminated as much as Jean?

So yes, while Jean has finally been allowed to be as powerful as she was meant to be "on her own"...it would be even better if she still reclaims wholly what started as hers .

*Fake Edit* Then there's Hope's whole inception...which was a huge "Return of Jean Grey" tease and so annoyingly on the nose with the "shockingly powerful Omega Level red head child messiah with Phoenix connection"...it would have made so much sense for her to be an aspect of Jean(Jean being plural/split is no new concept, not even then), maybe she still can be revealed as such... and I would have appreciated the bookend of Cable basically raising "Jean" in the future, the way Jean (and Scott), raised Cable in the future.

Another way to look at it is like what happened with Wanda and Pietro's mutant status...why would we want them back as mutants? Because they were

[Phoenixx9]

"Because it's hers" is such a perfect answer...that has been many of our viewpoints for decades...the retcon did much more than just try to rob Jean of her power and potential...that whole UXM 97-137 period was meant to also be Jean's growth as a woman full stop. Deciding to step away from being a full time X-Man, loving Scott but forging some independence away from him, Xavier, the school...making a life for herself, forging new relationships (Misty Knight...and eventually the Muir Island crew)...she does essentially return to the X-Men post shuttle/Phoenix incident, which allows her to continue developing and deepening her relationships with the new 2nd Gen X-Men...all of which makes for the profound emotional impact as they see and feel Jean changing (stoked in no small manner by the Hellfire Club's long term and insidious manipulations), culminating in her transformations into the Black Queen and Dark Phoenix...yet they fight with all their hearts and souls to try to save JEAN...the JEAN they've come to love during this time.

The retcon is the first cut...which made for thousands of cuts to come...she had her power stripped, her complexity stripped, her relationships partially erased, her iconography bandied about, her identity and self-image regressed (Marvel Girl...Apocalypse's manifesto touches on this), her personality chopped up and split among others for a time, even her look...she spends most of the 90s tucked under Xavier's psychic shadow (years and years of "2nd only to Xavier")...even her non-Phoenix unique attributes slowly but surely became obnoxiously ubiquitous (almost every psychic mutant...being or becoming a dual-psion...i think single psions may actually be more rare than dual psis these days)...even as someone who pioneered being an Omega level mutant(with Bobby), the start of the Krakoa era couldn't help but make her share the distinction with friggin' Quentin Quire, while downgrading her TK(which thankfully has been all but irrelevant by actual stories and feats).

It just...gets EX-HAUST-ING...to see everything taken from a character and thrown onto others...it's like that nightmare Maddie had of all of her features being stripped away...even her roles as headmistress and romantic partner of Cyclops...we won't even get into that.

Lately, certain "creators", keep trying to downplay Jean...now that she's shown to be incredibly powerful, for some reason her skill level gets called into question...that godawful, and erroneous, Hammer/Scalpel analogy...why does one impact the other? Who is the scalpel to Xavier's hammer? Who is the scalpel to Magneto's hammer? Let Jean be great in all the ways she's been shown to be...her journey has earned her that right.

Which other X-character has had as many intrinsic traits stripped and cloned and disseminated as much as Jean?

So yes, while Jean has finally been allowed to be as powerful as she was meant to be "on her own"...it would be even better if she still reclaims wholly what started as hers .

*Fake Edit* Then there's Hope's whole inception...which was a huge "Return of Jean Grey" tease and so annoyingly on the nose with the "shockingly powerful Omega Level red head child messiah with Phoenix connection"...it would have made so much sense for her to be an aspect of Jean(Jean being plural/split is no new concept, not even then), maybe she still can be revealed as such... and I would have appreciated the bookend of Cable basically raising "Jean" in the future, the way Jean (and Scott), raised Cable in the future.

Another way to look at it is like what happened with Wanda and Pietro's mutant status...why would we want them back as mutants? Because they were

I think you read my mind and then wrote this here!

[Portsian]

What I really enjoyed about Jean and Phoenix’s conversation, was their agreeing to be a partnership between the 2, which we have not seen before, not even with Morrison’s take. I’m SO excited to see where this takes us, and hope that Jean retakes the name Phoenix at the end of it all, even if the partnership is dissolved.

[Omega_DCD]

I think you read my mind and then wrote this here!

*Psychic High-five*

What I really enjoyed about Jean and Phoenix’s conversation, was their agreeing to be a partnership between the 2, which we have not seen before, not even with Morrison’s take. I’m SO excited to see where this takes us, and hope that Jean retakes the name Phoenix at the end of it all, even if the partnership is dissolved.

Yeah I agree...enough with the petulant Phoenix vibes of late