Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2023: “A Red Dragon”

[Mercury]

Personal attacks aren't very becoming. If some fans are feeing fearful, maybe it's because they have good reason to be? Forums are places for open discussion which means you'll encounter all types of posts, both positive and negative, and the majority will be somewhere in-between. Unless someone is outright breaking the regulations, you can't police discourse just because it isn't going your way. It's also very possible to continue your own posts and discussion without responding to ones you aren't interested in or feel uncomfortable with. I for one really enjoy reading your posts which are always very insightful and informed, so even if you'd rather not respond to mine anymore, I'd hope you'd continue to post. I don't consider Teen Jean's arrival as part of Jean's resurrection, the way Wolverine fans wouldn't say that Wolverine wasn't really dead during the period when Old Man Logan replaced him. And I'm sorry if this bursts your bubble, but I'm sure nobody thought Jean was going to be killed off the second time around in Morrison's run. I don't know anybody who started that run when it came out who was predicting that she'd be dead for fourteen years after it, yet, that's exactly what happened. There's never any guarantee with any character, but with Jean especially there's the fact that there are multiple generations of Marvel writers and editors who were reared on eras when she was dead so they take that as the status quo. That's why Jean is always more at-risk than other Marvel characters (Elektra is another who suffers from that).

Your comments about Brevoort do reassure me and I'm genuinely thankful that you posted them. I wanted someone to inform me that Brevoort doesn't dislike Jean and you've been able to do so, which makes me feel a lot better. My only connotation of him was in hearing about his interactions with Jean fans during the "Dark Ages," so that's why I automatically have a very negative impression of him with little positivity to follow back on. At least we won't have to worry about him killing off Jean just so Scott can shack up with somebody else. The age of burying Marvel marriages with redheads seems to be over at least (poor Mary Jane Watson was another major casualty of Joe Quesada). Going by what both Claremont and Byrne thought of Cyclops in the 21st century, it makes sense to me that Brevoort would feel similarly, so that does make me feel we'll be in good hands. I abhor the Hickman/Krakoa era and I want a back to basics era as quickly as possible which Brevoort sounds like he's willing to do.

By "being back for good," I mean if and when the Jean Grey solo results in her resurrection and isn't just a goodbye to Jean. It felt very convenient when I heard that the X-Men's resurrection protocols have failed just when Jean is a casualty, so I'll sleep better at night when she's restored after this and I hope I can say when and not if.

I never spoke to any of the Marvel writers and editors myself during that period, but frankly after knowing the extreme bias many of them had towards Jean and the fact that they wouldn't even mask it, I have no sympathy for such misogynists. It's not my place to say if Jean fans "deserved" the trolling they received or not, but I don't think such unprofessional behavior on part of Marvel would ever be justified. I don't think Jean fans on here would like being told that they deserved those years of hanging in the air for nothing concrete to stand on, especially an implication that their behavior was perhaps in part responsible for why Jean was not restored earlier.

As I said earlier, I enjoy reading your posts so I hope you continue to post here and interact regularly. If there are posts of mine you don't care much for, feel free to ignore them. I know I'm learning very much from your posts and the stuff you told me about Brevoort already makes me feel a lot better and more optimistic about the situation that this isn't another case where Jean will be killed off again for an arbitrary reason. This wave of positivity I'm feeling now would only be possible because of you, if that makes you feel better. Peace.

I'm heading to bed, but I wanted to say this much: Thank you for the positive feedback and compliments; that's very kind of you. And I totally agree about no one having the right, including me, to police anyone's posts. I think I just had my share of negative banter for the day. As for ignoring posts, I suppose I could start blocking people—I've never done it—because, in order to look past negative posts, I'd have to read parts of them first to determine they're negative, at which point their negativity has already, for lack of a better term, infected me. I've done a decent job within the last several months of ignoring such posts, but sometimes it's impossible to. Anyway, I think you write insightful and thoughtful posts, too, so I won't stop reading what you write.

However, I can urge you to try to remain hopeful and optimistic! The world is so much better that way.

[The Thunderbird]

Maybe that's something you should work on. Frankly, the constant doomsaying by some fans in this forum sometimes makes it impossible to discuss her current era in an enjoyable fashion in this thread. Counting her time displacement era, Jean's been back for over a decade now, and I highly doubt Marvel is going kill her off again.



Brevoort's biggest issue was with the way she was brought back because he felt it lessened the impact of the Dark Phoenix Saga, which to him, like many creatives, is a seminal work. He had no personal issue with her per se. And he edited both Judgement Day, in which she was treated very good, and the upcoming Marvel Ages #1000, which contains a story centered on Jean and Scott. He had a hand in personally picking the creative team for that story. And, by all accounts, he's a fan of Jean and Scott as a couple and found the latter's pairing with Emma "inauthentic."



But what is going to constitute being "back for good" for you? And Brevoort isn't taking the reigns for another 1-2 years, so are you going worried about her getting killed off until then and reminiscing about dark times past and possibly to come until then?



Or maybe it was because of fans pestering and insulting him to a degree that made him annoyed.

Anyway, I just don't have the energy for this kind of negativity anymore. I'm sorry. It's not you. It's me.

I respect your optimism Mercury. I remember back in 2010 or so when Brevoort answered one of the earlier "when will Jean come back questions" he basically answered with this

Not any time soon, but in the world of comics, anybody can come back. Heck, she's done it before.

I remember that Jean fans got upset over this since it basically confirmed that Jean wasn't going to come back around the time of Second Coming and they got mad at Brevoort over it.

[whitecrown]

I'm heading to bed, but I wanted to say this much: Thank you for the positive feedback and compliments; that's very kind of you. And I totally agree about no one having the right, including me, to police anyone's posts. I think I just had my share of negative banter for the day. As for ignoring posts, I suppose I could start blocking people—I've never done it—because, in order to look past negative posts, I'd have to read parts of them first to determine they're negative, at which point their negativity has already, for lack of a better term, infected me. I've done a decent job within the last several months of ignoring such posts, but sometimes it's impossible to. Anyway, I think you write insightful and thoughtful posts, too, so I won't stop reading what you write.

However, I can urge you to try to remain hopeful and optimistic! The world is so much better that way.

Good night! Have sweet dreams! I don't think you were policing anyone especially since I've seen what you had to put up with today in the Jean Grey #2 preview thread so I can understand your mood and why you were just done by this time lol. In that thread, I thought it would be better to ignore some of the crank posts that were being made about characters who weren't even Jean in a Jean Grey book, because I didn't want to fuel the ammunition and because I wanted to keep the peace between two fandoms that generally overlap. However, those posts from said users kept coming and coming no matter how many attempts were taken to change the discourse, so I also want to thank you for calling that behavior out and challenging the ridiculous and nitpicky arguments with hardcore proof and facts! You did an amazing job and I'm glad I have the opportunity to let you know about that on here since you were defending our Jean and should be commended. In fact, I regret not assisting you since it felt discouraging that you were the only Jean fan putting in the effort when you deserved support.

Thank you so much for the kind words as well! They mean so much to me coming from you! Honestly, I think the Jean fandom is always one of the greatest and every Jean fan on here has always been so kind and supportive to everyone else. I don't know if that says more about the character we're all here for or if it says something about us as a fandom that has accumulated around this character. Either way, I'm very thankful for your air of positivity and I feel so much more optimistic now all thanks to you! I heartily agree with you that the world feels much better this way

[whitecrown]

I respect your optimism Mercury. I remember back in 2010 or so when Brevoort answered one of the earlier "when will Jean come back questions" he basically answered with this



I remember that Jean fans got upset over this since it basically confirmed that Jean wasn't going to come back around the time of Second Coming and they got mad at Brevoort over it.

Thank you for posting this direct quote. Reading it in hindsight, I feel better about it because he doesn't ever claim here that he prefers her to stay dead. He just admits what we now know is the unfortunate truth, that Marvel was not interested in bringing Jean back at this point. In his own way, he was warning the Jean fandom not to get our hopes up and not to expect anything but crumbs to a nonexistent trail. Is he perhaps a bit too blunt? Yes. He always comes across that way in his writings from what I've seen, perhaps a consequence of so much public dealing. I can see why many of us would get riled up at the time and felt he was being unnecessarily rude but it all makes sense now with context. Perhaps I'm being too optimistic now lol.

Second Coming and 2010 was definitely still when that hack Joe Quesada was still around, so there was no way Jean was coming back then. As I said in a prior post, we got Teen Jean in 2012 because Joe Q was out by 2011. How much difference a year can make.

I'm feeling a lot better about an editor who feels Scott and Jean are the foundation of the X-Men, both as a couple and as individuals. No more ridiculous relationship drama, I hope, although even as I say that I recall that Marvel will never forget the third wheel who is still the second most popular character of theirs and will likely lead the X-Men's new status quo in the movies at least.

This anecdote from Alan Davis in 1999 is kinda hilarious but also a harbinger of what was yet to come in the 2000s with the X-Men movies.

Within the next year Claremont would leave the franchise, and Cyclops and Jean would marry in 1994's X-Men #30 (in addition to the popular animated series), but the enthusiasm from some fans for a Wolverine/Jean pairing never abated. While plotting the main X-titles in 1999, writer/artist Alan Davis experienced pressure from Marvel's editorial to produce a cover that featured another kiss. As Davis told TwoMorrows Publishing's Rough Stuff in its debut issue:
"(T)here was one 'request' that baffled me--a cover image with Wolverine and Jean Grey kissing. My question was always why, what is the story behind it? The answer was always the same, it's what the fans want and it's gonna be big -- and it will boost sales! I sent my sketch (an image of Rogue and Jean Grey making out) as an alternative that would certainly boost sales."
https://www.cbr.com/claremont-wolver...riangle-x-men/

This certainly explains why in the 2000s, even with Jean dead, we got so many covers with Jean and Logan together, usually kissing. I guess the only thing that sells better than Jean is Jean with Logan.

[The Thunderbird]

Thank you for posting this direct quote. Reading it in hindsight, I feel better about it because he doesn't ever claim here that he prefers her to stay dead. He just admits what we now know is the unfortunate truth, that Marvel was not interested in bringing Jean back at this point. In his own way, he was warning the Jean fandom not to get our hopes up and not to expect anything but crumbs to a nonexistent trail. Is he perhaps a bit too blunt? Yes. He always comes across that way in his writings from what I've seen, perhaps a consequence of so much public dealing. I can see why many of us would get riled up at the time and felt he was being unnecessarily rude but it all makes sense now with context. Perhaps I'm being too optimistic now lol.

Second Coming and 2010 was definitely still when that hack Joe Quesada was still around, so there was no way Jean was coming back then. As I said in a prior post, we got Teen Jean in 2012 because Joe Q was out by 2011. How much difference a year can make.

I'm feeling a lot better about an editor who feels Scott and Jean are the foundation of the X-Men, both as a couple and as individuals. No more ridiculous relationship drama, I hope, although even as I say that I recall that Marvel will never forget the third wheel who is still the second most popular character of theirs and will likely lead the X-Men's new status quo in the movies at least.

This anecdote from Alan Davis in 1999 is kinda hilarious but also a harbinger of what was yet to come in the 2000s with the X-Men movies.

Within the next year Claremont would leave the franchise, and Cyclops and Jean would marry in 1994's X-Men #30 (in addition to the popular animated series), but the enthusiasm from some fans for a Wolverine/Jean pairing never abated. While plotting the main X-titles in 1999, writer/artist Alan Davis experienced pressure from Marvel's editorial to produce a cover that featured another kiss. As Davis told TwoMorrows Publishing's Rough Stuff in its debut issue:
"(T)here was one 'request' that baffled me--a cover image with Wolverine and Jean Grey kissing. My question was always why, what is the story behind it? The answer was always the same, it's what the fans want and it's gonna be big -- and it will boost sales! I sent my sketch (an image of Rogue and Jean Grey making out) as an alternative that would certainly boost sales."
https://www.cbr.com/claremont-wolver...riangle-x-men/

This certainly explains why in the 2000s, even with Jean dead, we got so many covers with Jean and Logan together, usually kissing. I guess the only thing that sells better than Jean is Jean with Logan.

To elaborate on my previous post I believe that many Jean fans started hating on Brevoort after he answered that question and subsequent answers from Brevoort had a more snappy tone like the Jean fans were getting on his nerves. When Richard Rider was dead Brevoort posted identical replies on his tumblr to those asking for the return of the first Nova.

[PhoenixStudies]

I also think it is strange when folks hate on Morrison's run or his take on Jean. Morrison's Jean was very much loved and very popular at the time. Her Phoenix Disinfection plot was a huge story for her at that time. I'd argue it is her second main Phoenix story after the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Sagas. Morrison's Jean was confident, fiery, and powerful-- but she was still her deeply compassionate and empathic self as well (we saw that in her comforting Xavier, Beast, Beak, rescuing Emma, etc). She was also becoming more of a mutant leader with her press conference, being acting headmistress, and helping Xavier create the international X-Corps.

Morrison brought back and elevated her White Phoenix status, re-imagined the cocoon concept as a Phoenix Egg, and wrote her connection to the Phoenix as part of her mutation.

Sure, she died in New 150, but only to be reborn in the future to complete her disinfection of Sublime.

He wrote that she dies to return, always coming back.

And gave her the means to return, the Phoenix Egg.

It was editorial that demanded, dead is dead, and wouldn't let her return for a long time. They also wanted to push Scott and Emma. I realize some fans blame Morrison for starting that though.

Morrison implied Scott chose Jean, but Jean had to push Scott to stay with Emma to continue the school and Xavier's dream. She had to water the changed universe with her heart's blood.

I've long considered Morrison's Jean to be a perfect blend of "Jean Grey" and "Phoenix".

But I can see how some fans didn't like the Scott/Emma affair or Jean's death.

And of course Endsong was always in canon. Claremont had Rachel refer to it in Uncanny Reload. She mentions that her mom Jean returned briefly but was back to being dead. For some reason he had her say she thought Jean was severed from the Phoenix now which didn't make any sense since Jean was White Phoenix at the end of Endsong, but I think he wanted to use it with Rachel.

[whitecrown]

Speaking of the White Phoenix of the Crown, does anyone think that when Jean becomes Phoenix again by the end of this mini, she'll finally wear the White Phoenix costume as her permanent look instead of just a one-off or in the White Hot Room? I think this would be the perfect chance to establish that Jean and Phoenix are merged together forever and she's attained her most perfect state.

I'd love to see, not just a palette swap, but a more regal look in general as seen with her original Dave Cockrum design with the Captain Marvel cape and collar, more intricate phoenix emblem, and flame/talon edges on the gloves and boots. A modern-day interpretation is posted as well. (Credit to @LuisBajoCollados at https://www.deviantart.com/luisbajoc...sign-943533236)

[Exodus]

I also think it is strange when folks hate on Morrison's run or his take on Jean. Morrison's Jean was very much loved and very popular at the time. Her Phoenix Disinfection plot was a huge story for her at that time. I'd argue it is her second main Phoenix story after the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Sagas. Morrison's Jean was confident, fiery, and powerful-- but she was still her deeply compassionate and empathic self as well (we saw that in her comforting Xavier, Beast, Beak, rescuing Emma, etc). She was also becoming more of a mutant leader with her press conference, being acting headmistress, and helping Xavier create the international X-Corps.

Morrison brought back and elevated her White Phoenix status, re-imagined the cocoon concept as a Phoenix Egg, and wrote her connection to the Phoenix as part of her mutation.

Sure, she died in New 150, but only to be reborn in the future to complete her disinfection of Sublime.

He wrote that she dies to return, always coming back.

And gave her the means to return, the Phoenix Egg.

It was editorial that demanded, dead is dead, and wouldn't let her return for a long time. They also wanted to push Scott and Emma. I realize some fans blame Morrison for starting that though.

Morrison implied Scott chose Jean, but Jean had to push Scott to stay with Emma to continue the school and Xavier's dream. She had to water the changed universe with her heart's blood.

I've long considered Morrison's Jean to be a perfect blend of "Jean Grey" and "Phoenix".

But I can see how some fans didn't like the Scott/Emma affair or Jean's death.

And of course Endsong was always in canon. Claremont had Rachel refer to it in Uncanny Reload. She mentions that her mom Jean returned briefly but was back to being dead. For some reason he had her say she thought Jean was severed from the Phoenix now which didn't make any sense since Jean was White Phoenix at the end of Endsong, but I think he wanted to use it with Rachel.

Amen to all of that! Morrison's Jean Grey is superior to all other versions of the character. The relationship to Cyclops got boring and stale. I also think it is a very realistic depiction of a relationship that after moments of trauma-like Cyclops merging with Apocalypse-that a marriage will face rough time. It is so weirdly moralized that Cyclops had an affair. Things like that happen, also in the best of relationships.

[Exodus]

Speaking of the White Phoenix of the Crown, does anyone think that when Jean becomes Phoenix again by the end of this mini, she'll finally wear the White Phoenix costume as her permanent look instead of just a one-off or in the White Hot Room? I think this would be the perfect chance to establish that Jean and Phoenix are merged together forever and she's attained her most perfect state.

I'd love to see, not just a palette swap, but a more regal look in general as seen with her original Dave Cockrum design with the Captain Marvel cape and collar, more intricate phoenix emblem, and flame/talon edges on the gloves and boots. A modern-day interpretation is posted as well. (Credit to @LuisBajoCollados at https://www.deviantart.com/luisbajoc...sign-943533236)

I never really liked this color combination. White, gold, and red do nothing for me. I wished she will get an amazing new costume but not with those colors.

I also do not think it is possible to be the Phoenix of the Crown and be part of a regular x-team. Her power-level would be way too high.

[johnnysv75]

Did John Byrne really not like Jean as Phoenix, or did he just think that Jean as Phoenix was too powerful to be a member of X-Men? That is, having Jean being immensely powerful was not in itself the problem, but having one member being much more powerful than the rest was for him a problem.

Byrne made Sue the most powerful member of Fantastic Four, so from what I know of him and his writing, he doesn’t have a problem with powerful women. But I know that he can have a sort of rigid way of looking at things. So in his view, a team should really be working as a team, where no member overshadows the other members. Maybe that was his main problem with Jean, that her power level didn’t make her a good fit in a team like the X-Men?

[davetvs]

I also think it is strange when folks hate on Morrison's run or his take on Jean. Morrison's Jean was very much loved and very popular at the time. Her Phoenix Disinfection plot was a huge story for her at that time. I'd argue it is her second main Phoenix story after the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Sagas. Morrison's Jean was confident, fiery, and powerful-- but she was still her deeply compassionate and empathic self as well (we saw that in her comforting Xavier, Beast, Beak, rescuing Emma, etc). She was also becoming more of a mutant leader with her press conference, being acting headmistress, and helping Xavier create the international X-Corps.

Morrison brought back and elevated her White Phoenix status, re-imagined the cocoon concept as a Phoenix Egg, and wrote her connection to the Phoenix as part of her mutation.

Sure, she died in New 150, but only to be reborn in the future to complete her disinfection of Sublime.

He wrote that she dies to return, always coming back.

And gave her the means to return, the Phoenix Egg.

It was editorial that demanded, dead is dead, and wouldn't let her return for a long time. They also wanted to push Scott and Emma. I realize some fans blame Morrison for starting that though.

Morrison implied Scott chose Jean, but Jean had to push Scott to stay with Emma to continue the school and Xavier's dream. She had to water the changed universe with her heart's blood.

I've long considered Morrison's Jean to be a perfect blend of "Jean Grey" and "Phoenix".

But I can see how some fans didn't like the Scott/Emma affair or Jean's death.

And of course Endsong was always in canon. Claremont had Rachel refer to it in Uncanny Reload. She mentions that her mom Jean returned briefly but was back to being dead. For some reason he had her say she thought Jean was severed from the Phoenix now which didn't make any sense since Jean was White Phoenix at the end of Endsong, but I think he wanted to use it with Rachel.

Agreed. Morrison's run is Jean at her absolute best.

[Micabe]

Agreed. Morrison's run is Jean at her absolute best.

[Mercury]

I respect your optimism Mercury. I remember back in 2010 or so when Brevoort answered one of the earlier "when will Jean come back questions" he basically answered with this. I remember that Jean fans got upset over this since it basically confirmed that Jean wasn't going to come back around the time of Second Coming and they got mad at Brevoort over it.

Thank you for the positive feedback. Regarding being optimistic, it's a choice. It's always a choice to exhibit radical acceptance and focus on the good and promising in any situation. As for Brevoort, I can't imagine how taxing it must be for some writers and editors to wade through the swamp of vitriol repeatedly laid before them. Hell, I'm only a fan and can take but so much of people's criticisms and complaints.

Good night! Have sweet dreams! I don't think you were policing anyone especially since I've seen what you had to put up with today in the Jean Grey #2 preview thread so I can understand your mood and why you were just done by this time lol. In that thread, I thought it would be better to ignore some of the crank posts that were being made about characters who weren't even Jean in a Jean Grey book, because I didn't want to fuel the ammunition and because I wanted to keep the peace between two fandoms that generally overlap. However, those posts from said users kept coming and coming no matter how many attempts were taken to change the discourse, so I also want to thank you for calling that behavior out and challenging the ridiculous and nitpicky arguments with hardcore proof and facts! You did an amazing job and I'm glad I have the opportunity to let you know about that on here since you were defending our Jean and should be commended. In fact, I regret not assisting you since it felt discouraging that you were the only Jean fan putting in the effort when you deserved support.

Thank you so much for the kind words as well! They mean so much to me coming from you! Honestly, I think the Jean fandom is always one of the greatest and every Jean fan on here has always been so kind and supportive to everyone else. I don't know if that says more about the character we're all here for or if it says something about us as a fandom that has accumulated around this character. Either way, I'm very thankful for your air of positivity and I feel so much more optimistic now all thanks to you! I heartily agree with you that the world feels much better this way

Once again, thank you for the positive feedback and kind words. I think those of you who tried to ignore the mean-spirited posts and redirect the conversation did the right thing. I just couldn't stand by and watch it go on anymore, which could be deemed a mistake or flaw on my part. Oh well, that's water under the bridge now. Anyway, I'm glad you're feeling more optimistic. I genuinely believe that as Jean and X-Men fans, we have a lot to look forward to.

Did John Byrne really not like Jean as Phoenix, or did he just think that Jean as Phoenix was too powerful to be a member of X-Men? That is, having Jean being immensely powerful was not in itself the problem, but having one member being much more powerful than the rest was for him a problem.

Byrne has repeatedly admitted that he loved Jean but didn't like Phoenix. In fact, after he and Claremont bluffed Shooter and suggested she be killed off, and Shooter agreed, he and Claremont both panicked and regretted suggesting she die. That's why he jumped at Busiek's idea; he wanted Jean back.

[CaptainUniverse]

Speaking of the White Phoenix of the Crown, does anyone think that when Jean becomes Phoenix again by the end of this mini, she'll finally wear the White Phoenix costume as her permanent look instead of just a one-off or in the White Hot Room? I think this would be the perfect chance to establish that Jean and Phoenix are merged together forever and she's attained her most perfect state.

I'd love to see, not just a palette swap, but a more regal look in general as seen with her original Dave Cockrum design with the Captain Marvel cape and collar, more intricate phoenix emblem, and flame/talon edges on the gloves and boots. A modern-day interpretation is posted as well. (Credit to @LuisBajoCollados at https://www.deviantart.com/luisbajoc...sign-943533236)

Moments before disaster: Hellfire Gala 2024 (Also, I like the Mary Marvel-esque redesign.)

[whitecrown]

Once again, thank you for the positive feedback and kind words. I think those of you who tried to ignore the mean-spirited posts and redirect the conversation did the right thing. I just couldn't stand by and watch it go on anymore, which could be deemed a mistake or flaw on my part. Oh well, that's water under the bridge now. Anyway, I'm glad you're feeling more optimistic. I genuinely believe that as Jean and X-Men fans, we have a lot to look forward to.

Byrne has repeatedly admitted that he loved Jean but didn't like Phoenix. In fact, after he and Claremont bluffed Shooter and suggested she be killed off, and Shooter agreed, he and Claremont both panicked and regretted suggesting she die. That's why he jumped at Busiek's idea; he wanted Jean back.

I think you did the right thing since in a very civil manner, you posted all kinds of proof to refute the nonsense that was being posted. There's different types of trolling, for example a specific troll in the Jean Grey #1 thread who was constantly posting to try and get a rise out of Jean fans, even displaying their ignorance by mixing up Louise Simonson and Gail Simone, but luckily no Jean fans fell for the bait. I see that troll has even moved over into the Jean Grey #2 preview thread but luckily, I don't think anyone is going to respond there either. The specific trolling you were dealing with involved false arguments and fallacies and that needed to be corrected, which thankfully you did.

I think part of Byrne's issue was also that he was very attached to the Silver Age X-Men so Jean for him was the Marvel Girl he grew up with. Phoenix was not his creation as she belonged to Claremont and Cockrum. I feel as though if Cockrum had stuck around instead of Byrne, things would have been very different and there would never have been a Dark Phoenix. Byrne has repeatedly said how Claremont only ever read the Neal Adams run of X-Men when he joined the book and thus he didn't have the same attachment to the O5. Jean and later Hank were the only two of the O5 that Claremont really ever liked, especially after he soured on Scott. For Claremont, there is no Jean without Phoenix and vice-versa, whereas that's not the case for Byrne since even in Phoenix: The Untold Story, he said he always viewed Jean as possessed by the Phoenix and that they were two separate entities and Jean shouldn't have been held responsible for her actions as Dark Phoenix because it wasn't her. I believe it's also in Phoenix: The Untold Story where Byrne mentions that it was only in the process of writing Dark Phoenix that he realized that all this bad stuff he was doing to the character was really Jean, a character that meant a lot to him, so I think that also shows how for a while he didn't even consider Phoenix to be Jean or his Jean anyway.