Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2023: “A Red Dragon”

[davetvs]

100 percent agree with everyone you have written. I also think it is relevant to the discussion about Jean and Scott...

xoxoxoxo <3

[Exodus]

Love is enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Jean Grey

Always a matter of how we define "love" (in a Jean "kick ass " Grey kinda way).

I just leave this quote by Jennifer C. Nash here that I really admire:

"Love-politics practitioners dream of a yet unwritten future; they imagine a world ordered by love, by a radical embrace of difference, by a set of subjects who work on/against themselves to work for each other. This dreaming, of course, does not suspend labor; black feminist love-politics practitioners have always been attached to the idea that the radical future requires certain kinds of very hard work, pushing beyond our investments in selfhood and sameness, and reaching toward collectivities and possibilities. Nor does this vision neglect the host of ways that power and structures of domination work on and against bodies in quotidian and spectacular ways."

Jennifer C. Nash, 2013, “Practicing Love: Black Feminism, Love-Politics, and Post-Intersectionality", pp. 1–24, here 18.

Maybe this politicized understanding of love is what Jean has in mind when she speaks to Scott. I do not think that Marxist Queen and ally to Black feminists like Storm and Misty Knight, Jean Grey, is ever naive when she speaks about love. I really wished Jean would bring Xavier's dream back in a redefined way that is not assimilative but informed by a strong desire for solidarity and a shared struggle for change.


Cheers!

[MechaJeanix]

There is definitely an interesting discussion here about prejudice, racism, activism, and how we deal with it. I often think of my basic assumption about humans and whether we are basically good or if we are basically bad - do we learn to hate or do we have to learn to love. When it reality all of us learn both throough primary and secondary socialization and we learn both love and hate.

I think of the professional activists that I personally know. Some of them self define as radical, and others define themselves in other ways. They have strong opinions but usually when doing activist work they are a little more strategic and measured - trying to mobilize folks to action - trying to reach as many as they can to draw them in to their cause. They use a lot of empathy which does look different than online activism at times.

Jean and Scott's approaches are different and I think that is fine. There is room for empathy or love and there is room for direct (and physical) action. It isn't so much an either or, but if you look at online discussions we are often hyper focused on who (or what) is right or wrong. Which take is the correct one? Look at all the Cyclops is right discourse. It makes me cringe.

I agree in the discussion on this thread that you can't discuss minorities fighting for their rights (and their right to exist) without discussing power (in the sociological sense) - and that is why reverse racism will never be a thing - folks can show prejudice to others but marginalized communities do not have the power like the majority does and that is an important distinction. Intersectionality is also important but in an academic way because sometimes well meaning folks mischaracterize it.

Someone on twitter posted Jean and Scott's heated discussion during New X-men. This time it was Scott saying mutants aren't like humans, and it was Jean saying we can't hind our glowing eyes from Republicans (something to that effect). It is an interesting discussion on how the best for mutants to deal with humans. Not all humans are like Orchis but many humans still fear mutants, still hold prejudice against mutants, may know someone who has been harmed by mutants, etc.

Fighting for the right to exist can also take many forms - violence, non violent action, political pressure, etc. Personally what annoys me at times is how some fans act like they are members of the weathermen underground and advocate violence but I have a feeling many of us are non-violent and are more comfortable from the safety of a keyboard. I do think most of us think ourselves more radical than we actually are. We exist in a culture and system, and many operate within the confines (even if it may greatly upset us).

I'm not sure the answer about Scott and Jean's discussion, and I don't bother with who was right or wrong - or who might be portrayed as ultimately right or wrong. It brought interesting discussion. Their conflict to me was rushed overall, but hopefully it will leave both characters in a better place. I still like Jean's compassion, empathy, and optimism. I tend to share it since I often give people the benefit of the doubt and even those who do not deserve it. I want to believe in humanity's ability to be good (even though I know that humanity is capable of great evil and is still doing evil in the world). I have to believe that some people can change or have the ability to change (because otherwise life would be very hard to process).

Also I work in the CJ system so I work with folks that both the left and the right discard (people accused of and/or convicted of crimes and that sometimes include violent crimes). Every day when I work with a client I have to see that person's humanity even if they may have committed horrible offenses and even if there were victims, etc. It gives a certain perspective of people when you directly work with those others label as the "worst of the worst". I definitely fall in the rehabilitation can work (even if minimally) than the "nothing works" doctrine that led to mass incarceration in the US.

When it comes to hatred, prejudice, bigotry I like to believe people can grow and change and that those in the majority must be held accountable and must be responsible for their growth (it isn't on minorities to educate the majority, etc.). Bigotry will never die out because bigots are constantly teaching others unfortunately. So it is a problem that is ever present and a fight that always remains.

*of course structural issues is a bigger discussion but Dave handled it well so I did not get into it.

[Mercury]

That's similar to what Exodus said and to what I replied in the previous posts.

Bigotry is bigotry. It doesn't matter who is the bigot, it doesn't matter if it's understandable that they are bigots, considering their history.

If you don't make this clear distinction, you're inviting more bigotry and more hatred and fomenting a vicious cycle that only gets worse and worse. If Jean is really about love and winning hearts, she should have corrected Scott right away. And she should most certainly not have referred to humans the way she did.

But this goes beyond comics, Mercury. This is really serious.

I think you're failing to take the following into consideration: (1) This is a private exchange between Jean and Scott; (2) both of them are likely experiencing burnout and speaking from a combination of wariness and weariness; (3) they are more likely than not referring to bigoted humans exclusively, despite the dialogue, especially considering the acceptance and gratitude they have received from countless humans throughout their time on this team and as X-Men in general. That said, I understand your point of contention; I just do not subscribe to it.

Always a matter of how we define "love" (in a Jean "kick ass " Grey kinda way).

I just leave this quote by Jennifer C. Nash here that I really admire:

"Love-politics practitioners dream of a yet unwritten future; they imagine a world ordered by love, by a radical embrace of difference, by a set of subjects who work on/against themselves to work for each other. This dreaming, of course, does not suspend labor; black feminist love-politics practitioners have always been attached to the idea that the radical future requires certain kinds of very hard work, pushing beyond our investments in selfhood and sameness, and reaching toward collectivities and possibilities. Nor does this vision neglect the host of ways that power and structures of domination work on and against bodies in quotidian and spectacular ways."

Jennifer C. Nash, 2013, “Practicing Love: Black Feminism, Love-Politics, and Post-Intersectionality", pp. 1–24, here 18.

Maybe this politicized understanding of love is what Jean has in mind when she speaks to Scott. I do not think that Marxist Queen and ally to Black feminists like Storm and Misty Knight, Jean Grey, is ever naive when she speaks about love. I really wished Jean would bring Xavier's dream back in a redefined way that is not assimilative but informed by a strong desire for solidarity and a shared struggle for change.

Cheers!

What a great quote and point. I honestly don't understand people's aversion to Jean underscoring that love is one of the central tenets and principles by which she governs herself and views the world at large. I mean, do these people not grasp what she's seen and endured or the heights to which she has ascended? Frankly, I'd find it bizarre if she were the petty, quippy, aggressive, sardonic type, i.e., a cliche of comic books. She's transcended and is much more multifaceted than that. Then again, people have very fixed ideas about who and how Jean should be and present herself, whereas I'm happiest seeing her dwell in dualities and contradictions. This is something Gillen excelled at illustrating about her during Judgment Day, i.e., her altruism and brutality when pushed.

There is definitely an interesting discussion here about prejudice, racism, activism, and how we deal with it. I often think of my basic assumption about humans and whether we are basically good or if we are basically bad - do we learn to hate or do we have to learn to love. When it reality all of us learn both throough primary and secondary socialization and we learn both love and hate.

I think of the professional activists that I personally know. Some of them self define as radical, and others define themselves in other ways. They have strong opinions but usually when doing activist work they are a little more strategic and measured - trying to mobilize folks to action - trying to reach as many as they can to draw them in to their cause. They use a lot of empathy which does look different than online activism at times.

Jean and Scott's approaches are different and I think that is fine. There is room for empathy or love and there is room for direct (and physical) action. It isn't so much an either or, but if you look at online discussions we are often hyper focused on who (or what) is right or wrong. Which take is the correct one? Look at all the Cyclops is right discourse. It makes me cringe.

I agree in the discussion on this thread that you can't discuss minorities fighting for their rights (and their right to exist) without discussing power (in the sociological sense) - and that is why reverse racism will never be a thing - folks can show prejudice to others but marginalized communities do not have the power like the majority does and that is an important distinction. Intersectionality is also important but in an academic way because sometimes well meaning folks mischaracterize it.

Someone on twitter posted Jean and Scott's heated discussion during New X-men. This time it was Scott saying mutants aren't like humans, and it was Jean saying we can't hind our glowing eyes from Republicans (something to that effect). It is an interesting discussion on how the best for mutants to deal with humans. Not all humans are like Orchis but many humans still fear mutants, still hold prejudice against mutants, may know someone who has been harmed by mutants, etc.

Fighting for the right to exist can also take many forms - violence, non violent action, political pressure, etc. Personally what annoys me at times is how some fans act like they are members of the weathermen underground and advocate violence but I have a feeling many of us are non-violent and are more comfortable from the safety of a keyboard. I do think most of us think ourselves more radical than we actually are. We exist in a culture and system, and many operate within the confines (even if it may greatly upset us).

I'm not sure the answer about Scott and Jean's discussion, and I don't bother with who was right or wrong - or who might be portrayed as ultimately right or wrong. It brought interesting discussion. Their conflict to me was rushed overall, but hopefully it will leave both characters in a better place. I still like Jean's compassion, empathy, and optimism. I tend to share it since I often give people the benefit of the doubt and even those who do not deserve it. I want to believe in humanity's ability to be good (even though I know that humanity is capable of great evil and is still doing evil in the world). I have to believe that some people can change or have the ability to change (because otherwise life would be very hard to process).

Also I work in the CJ system so I work with folks that both the left and the right discard (people accused of and/or convicted of crimes and that sometimes include violent crimes). Every day when I work with a client I have to see that person's humanity even if they may have committed horrible offenses and even if there were victims, etc. It gives a certain perspective of people when you directly work with those others label as the "worst of the worst". I definitely fall in the rehabilitation can work (even if minimally) than the "nothing works" doctrine that led to mass incarceration in the US.

When it comes to hatred, prejudice, bigotry I like to believe people can grow and change and that those in the majority must be held accountable and must be responsible for their growth (it isn't on minorities to educate the majority, etc.). Bigotry will never die out because bigots are constantly teaching others unfortunately. So it is a problem that is ever present and a fight that always remains.

*of course structural issues is a bigger discussion but Dave handled it well so I did not get into it.

Very astute. Thank you for this.

[Havok83]

What a great quote and point. I honestly don't understand people's aversion to Jean underscoring that love is one of the central tenets and principles by which she governs herself and views the world at large. I mean, do these people not grasp what she's seen and endured or the heights to which she has ascended? Frankly, I'd find it bizarre if she were the petty, quippy, aggressive, sardonic type, i.e., a cliche of comic books. She's transcended and is much more multifaceted than that. Then again, people have very fixed ideas about who and how Jean should be and present herself, whereas I'm happiest seeing her dwell in dualities and contradictions. This is something Gillen excelled at illustrating about her during Judgment Day, i.e., her altruism and brutality when pushed.

I think its more to do with how Duggan presented it. Ive been a defender and fan of him as a writer, especially for Jean but to say how this current conflict has been clunky would be an understatement. I think it would do him wonders to do an interview where he explains what he was going for bc whats on panel isnt clear and a bit confusing. Like Jean up and deides to quit the X-men here and people dont understand why. When she quit X-Force, the narrative made it it make sense but most of us are left scratching our heads wondering "What?" here

[Grinning Soul]

I think you're failing to take the following into consideration: (1) This is a private exchange between Jean and Scott; (2) both of them are likely experiencing burnout and speaking from a combination of wariness and weariness; (3) they are more likely than not referring to bigoted humans exclusively, despite the dialogue, especially considering the acceptance and gratitude they have received from countless humans throughout their time on this team and as X-Men in general. That said, I understand your point of contention; I just do not subscribe to it.

Even though this is clearly about the comics, I just don't think this conversation with you can be productive anymore. So, I'm dropping it.

[Soulsword323]

Bernard Chang shared a little preview of Jean in 'Jean Grey' on Instagram.

Love it.

Very thankful Jean has a good artist working on her solo.

[juan678]

https://twitter.com/amadcartoonist/s...08765186400257

[Daedra]

I agree that you probably won't change the minds of certain people. But you don't need to change them. Everybody dies, eventually they will too. If you're creating a society which doesn't accept bigotry as a whole, the next generations will be better.

That being said, I've met people who were bigots and changed their minds when they had to actually interact with the people they were prejudiced against. Those are not the exceptions.



Love is not enough, but it's part of the equation.

You don't fix hatred with more hate.

You are totally correct GS, anyone can be racist and anyone can be a bigot, being part of a minority does not magically wave away the hate, prejudice or bias in someone’s belief system.
Racism only leads to more racism and making negative assuptions about people based on their skin color or sex is despicable no matter who does it.

[Grinning Soul]

You are totally correct GS, anyone can be racist and anyone can be a bigot, being part of a minority does not magically wave away the hate, prejudice or bias in someone’s belief system.
Racism only leads to more racism and making negative assuptions about people based on their skin color or sex is despicable no matter who does it.

Thanks for saying this, my Prince, but we're the minority here.

Wait! Does it mean we get to say whatever the hell we want? :D

--

Relax, everyone. It's just a joke. Daedra and I have a wicked sense of humor.


---

EDITED for clarification:

I know one shouldn't try to explain a joke, but given the times we live in, maybe I should (also in case people didn't read the previous messages and are reading this out of context.)

This is wordplay. Daedra and I seem to be in the *numerical* minority of posters who expressed their view that bigotry is bigotry no matter who commits it.

Obviously, we don't believe this give us the right to say something hateful towards any group. That was, after all, our point.

It's a pun about the different applications of the same word.

[Exodus]

I am just happy that I do not have to have this converation alone here. Sending some "Jean Grey group hugs" to the ones who deserve them! :-)

[Exodus]

https://twitter.com/amadcartoonist/s...08765186400257

it is maybe not the most popular opinion in this thread but I TRUELY think that this Jean Grey is the best version of the character of all time!!! She cracks me up EVERY SINGLE TIME!

[5cents]

Just saw a pic of Hugh Jackman in Deadpool3 wearing Wolverine’s yellow suit. Wonder how much screen time the x-men will get esp if Famke returns.

[Phoenixx9]

Just saw a pic of Hugh Jackman in Deadpool3 wearing Wolverine’s yellow suit. Wonder how much screen time the x-men will get esp if Famke returns.

I would love to see Famke in Jean's current costume. She would look great!

[starduck]

I want Famke to have either the 90s or the phoenix costume, but without all the unnecesary detail they put on mcu costumes