Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2023: “A Red Dragon”

[The Thunderbird]

Question...the coherent Jean we saw at the end of the recent mini, what state of being is she in? Hope, Exodus, and her other self are there, and Jean(with the Phoenix) is able to affect things(or at least her other self, thereby allowing Hope to mimic her Phoenix powers), but is unseen/unheard and seemingly out-of-phase. I know Jean's mini seems from the perspective of immediately following her Gala death, and Jean does recount her death there...but as her other projections said, she's "starting" to remember...what if this is her consciousness after what we just saw, getting stabbed by Mother Righteous?

It's certainly possible. Jean in the mini was stated to be displaced from time after all.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

The thing is, the idea that the "last few years have been a buffet" is just one opinion that perhaps not everyone shares, and not an immutable fact. So starting from that point to criticize how someone reacts to the stories is kinda shaky foundation. The vast majority of the Jean content has been dry and basic, and I have been taking solace mainly in the fact that she isn't actually killed off so she is there if a writer has something ambitious for her in the future.

I thought Percy had a good couple issues with her, Duggan had her solo a robot with water and successfully conveyed the message that Jean's message to Firestar was meant to be a big deal, and Gillen had some notable enemies say Jean is special. Maybe I shouldn't expect more than that, but I didn't find that much compelling about Jean in the Krakoa era. If it wasn't for a couple of lines from a couple of Gillen's sinisters and the fact that the last issue of the Jean series (that should have been a slightly larger single issue) showed Jean and the Phoenix together, I'd be calling Krakoa Jean a wash on the balance sheet at best, if not a negative.

The main thing is she is alive (maybe? lol) and they are off the anti-Jean/Phoenix tirade (maybe? lol). I can take those wins regardless of what I've thought of the character's narrative or lack thereof.

[Wiccan]

The thing is, the idea that the "last few years have been a buffet" is just one opinion that perhaps not everyone shares, and not an immutable fact. So starting from that point to criticize how someone reacts to the stories is kinda shaky foundation. The vast majority of the Jean content has been dry and basic, and I have been taking solace mainly in the fact that she isn't actually killed off so she is there if a writer has something ambitious for her in the future.

I thought Percy had a good couple issues with her, Duggan had her solo a robot with water and successfully conveyed the message that Jean's message to Firestar was meant to be a big deal, and Gillen had some notable enemies say Jean is special. Maybe I shouldn't expect more than that, but I didn't find that much compelling about Jean in the Krakoa era. If it wasn't for a couple of lines from a couple of Gillen's sinisters and the fact that the last issue of the Jean series (that should have been a slightly larger single issue) showed Jean and the Phoenix together, I'd be calling Krakoa Jean a wash on the balance sheet at best, if not a negative.

The main thing is she is alive (maybe? lol) and they are off the anti-Jean/Phoenix tirade (maybe? lol). I can take those wins regardless of what I've thought of the character's narrative or lack thereof.

I don't think it's been a "buffet", but it's better than we had at first with Hickman, and better than what we had before that with Disassembled and Age of X-Men (imo, at least). And for a good while she was just dead.

It's maybe not as good as X-Men Red, but in hindsight I don't feel like X-Men Red was really all that. We were hyped about Jean's return and it was a book focused on her where she was the clear protagonist and framed very positively by the narrative. But the actual story could've been better, and like, led up to something. Now, whatever has been going on in Immortal and her mini might not be the most "look how awesome and right and empathetic and a good leader Jean is" thing, but I think it's a pretty interesting story. Duggan's X-Men were a bit of a middle ground in that it showed her in a positive light, she had enough presence on it and it gave her a few feats, but the stories were neither that much about her nor particularly interesting.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I don't think it's been a "buffet", but it's better than we had at first with Hickman, and better than what we had before that with Disassembled and Age of X-Men (imo, at least). And for a good while she was just dead.

It's maybe not as good as X-Men Red, but in hindsight I don't feel like X-Men Red was really all that. We were hyped about Jean's return and it was a book focused on her where she was the clear protagonist and framed very positively by the narrative. But the actual story could've been better, and like, led up to something. Now, whatever has been going on in Immortal and her mini might not be the most "look how awesome and right and empathetic and a good leader Jean is" thing, but I think it's a pretty interesting story. Duggan's X-Men were a bit of a middle ground in that it showed her in a positive light, she had enough presence on it and it gave her a few feats, but the stories were neither that much about her nor particularly interesting.

I can agree with this. I love Red for what it is, but yeah it could have had more bite to it. Nova did blow up a politician's head and all, but the book could have gotten deeper, a touch more serious overall, and could have given Jean more arduous trials. We've talked recently about how the final Jean/Nova conflict could have had more oomph.

I'm waiting for a writer come along with something to put Jean through and show it from her perspective. Have her flex a little and show some confidence. Have her make a mistake or two and come back from it. Walk her right up to the edge and actually play with and question that 'compassion vs fire' thing. She needs some narrative with some grandiosity, spice, and active action from her, no lie.

[Wiccan]

I can agree with this. I love Red for what it is, but yeah it could have had more bite to it. Nova did blow up a politician's head and all, but the book could have gotten deeper, a touch more serious overall, and could have given Jean more arduous trials. We've talked recently about how the final Jean/Nova conflict could have had more oomph.

I'm waiting for a writer come along with something to put Jean through and show it from her perspective. Have her flex a little and show some confidence. Have her make a mistake or two and come back from it. Walk her right up to the edge and actually play with and question that 'compassion vs fire' thing. She needs some narrative with some grandiosity, spice, and active action from her, no lie.

Yeah I wonder if we will finally get that in the new era. I feel like Morrison's Jean still hasn't been topped. But I think a part of that is also that books get relaunched all the time now. Reading a whole run of a character is so much more satisfying, especially after it's done, and I feel like going from HOX to X-Force to X-Men to the Jean mini/Immortal now she hasn't had that much consistency in the krakoan era. It would've been nice if she had that one writer who got to have her for all of it, like Percy with Logan.

I feel like that was also another problem with Red in a different way, it came in a time where the line was very disconnected from each other, and towards the end of that era. She was a big deal in Red but then we had Gold at the same time, somehow Storm was in both and Rachel was getting mindcontrolled in both... I hope that the next relaunch is well organized and Jean has a place and role in it from the start.

[Mercury]

Question...the coherent Jean we saw at the end of the recent mini, what state of being is she in? Hope, Exodus, and her other self are there, and Jean(with the Phoenix) is able to affect things(or at least her other self, thereby allowing Hope to mimic her Phoenix powers), but is unseen/unheard and seemingly out-of-phase. I know Jean's mini seems from the perspective of immediately following her Gala death, and Jean does recount her death there...but as her other projections said, she's "starting" to remember...what if this is her consciousness after what we just saw, getting stabbed by Mother Righteous?

I love this dichotomy, which I think Simonson and Gillen have used to underscore how immeasurably vast Jean's psyche and being are. It also elucidates how she was both Phoenix and in stasis in a cocoon at the bottom of Jamaica Bay during Claremont's original run. (The two realities are not mutually exclusive.) And I'm certainly convinced that Gage touched upon this dichotomy by depicting fleeting moments in which Purple Phoenix registered that there is no distinction between herself and alternate versions of herself, again, underscoring her vastness...her "multitudes," to quote Whitman. Part of me doesn't want any of this over-intellectualized and explained in simple terms. It should remain esoteric or "gnomic," to quote Gillen.

Ultimately, I'm exhilarated by what Duggan, Gillen, Simonson, and Gage have collectively done with Jean in the last two plus years. Duggan highlighted her raw power without underscoring her identity as Phoenix. Gillen and Simonson mined her mythos and, one might say, burned away the impurities, revealing the pure diamond and gold that Claremont harvested decades ago. Gage simply underscored what Simonson and Gillen were already playing with. In the end, what we're left with is Jean's identity as Phoenix—their inextricable connection—explicitly reestablished and underscored with a few new layers and mysteries thrown in for good measure.

And when I look back on this era, I'll quickly recognize and be able to follow the throughline of a woman vastly more powerful and essential to all creation than she has ever been able to consistently accept due to the pain and trauma this truth has caused her and others, not to mention the weight and responsibility it entails. I'll look back on her subtle and oh-so-mortal attempts to turn back the hand of time in order to cling to a past and identity—Marvel Girl!—that she outgrew long ago, and I'll feel nothing but empathy and a small, sharp ache for her. Oh, Marvel Girl; a primal force playing dress up. I'll also look back and remember that even beneath that seemingly naive, innocent, and nostalgic veneer, she remained quietly sharp, passionate, and indulgent as if a greater part of her was bidding its time to fully blossom. In the interim, she reunited with her husband and finally consummated her love for a friend (it was about time), all while playing up the fragility, meekness, and mildness of a 1960s schoolgirl. How simultaneously precious and pathetic of her. How achingly...beautiful. Marvel Girl. Ha!

She truly is a marvel.

[MechaJeanix]

I am an optimist at heart, so I see a lot of good with Jean in the modern era. She's had a role and she's had an emotional arc if you will - from starting off as a member of the ruling council to doing work in X-force and struggling with difficult choices. Jean went through some distance with her portrayal in Tom Taylor's X-men Red to where Percy had her.

I didn't mind that she quit X-force because we saw glimpses of Jean struggling with being part of the "dirty work". She believed in Krakoa but wanted to do heroic things. She had a decent role in X of Swords along with Scott. I missed her being on the QC and I missed her having something of a job in X-force, but Jean and Scott believe in the dream and seeing them lead the X-men was great. I love Jean as a team leader. Duggan's writing may be mid to some, but at least he had Jean do stuff. Hickman's Jean was a little mixed for me.

Jean had a simmering Phoenix subplot since X-men 4 and her first battle with Nightmare. AXE X-men issue was great. Jean's role in AXE was more than decent overall. She was one of the major x-men characters in the story.

Major standouts for me in this era include the Giant Size Jean Grey and Emma Frost issue (though it would have been nice if it was more than a homage) and Planet Size X-men. I'll add the three Gala issues as well.

Someone brought up Taylor's X-men Red and it will always be special to me because Jean had a starring role in a team book (it was basically a stealth solo for her), and for that I will always look back at it fondly.

I don't know where this Dominion stuff will go or what will happen with Jean/Phoenix bleeding out, but I am eager to continue to read and find out. I'm always hoping for good things - and that when it is over Jean is still around to be a central figure in the next era coming up.

[Hakka84]

And when I look back on this era, I'll quickly recognize and be able to follow the throughline of a woman vastly more powerful and essential to all creation than she has ever been able to consistently accept due to the pain and trauma this truth has caused her and others, not to mention the weight and responsibility it entails. I'll look back on her subtle and oh-so-mortal attempts to turn back the hand of time in order to cling to a past and identity—Marvel Girl!—that she outgrew long ago, and I'll feel nothing but empathy and a small, sharp ache for her. Oh, Marvel Girl; a primal force playing dress up. I'll also look back and remember that even beneath that seemingly naive, innocent, and nostalgic veneer, she remained quietly sharp, passionate, and indulgent as if a greater part of her was bidding its time to fully blossom.

These are such wonderful words. You're passionate and with your words can make other passionate of this character as well. Often comic characters feel 2-dimensional, especially if you don't have time or you aren't invested enough to dive under the superficial layers of the story-of-the-month/year. Especially now that we aren't given thoughts boxes anymore and plots come and go quickly, a fight after another without any respite, and characters must do their things as character-as-weapon, with no time or panel space for the character-as-person.
Are posts like this one that remind me that, might it be us "humanizing" fictional characters, with real emotions, hurdles and feelings... but, boy, these are characters that feel very real. Thanks.

[Havok83]

Yeah I wonder if we will finally get that in the new era. I feel like Morrison's Jean still hasn't been topped. But I think a part of that is also that books get relaunched all the time now. Reading a whole run of a character is so much more satisfying, especially after it's done, and I feel like going from HOX to X-Force to X-Men to the Jean mini/Immortal now she hasn't had that much consistency in the krakoan era. It would've been nice if she had that one writer who got to have her for all of it, like Percy with Logan.

I feel like that was also another problem with Red in a different way, it came in a time where the line was very disconnected from each other, and towards the end of that era. She was a big deal in Red but then we had Gold at the same time, somehow Storm was in both and Rachel was getting mindcontrolled in both... I hope that the next relaunch is well organized and Jean has a place and role in it from the start.

I feel like you'd have to ignore the Hickman and Percy stuff bc Jean has been fairly consistent from Duggan's Xmen to Gillen's AXE and now immortal with Simonson thrown in there for added context. I feel like thats where Jean's Krakoa arc really began and its largely been those 2 main writers and someone brought in to expaond on what they've done

[Mercury]

These are such wonderful words. You're passionate and with your words can make other passionate of this character as well. Often comic characters feel 2-dimensional, especially if you don't have time or you aren't invested enough to dive under the superficial layers of the story-of-the-month/year. Especially now that we aren't given thoughts boxes anymore and plots come and go quickly, a fight after another without any respite, and characters must do their things as character-as-weapon, with no time or panel space for the character-as-person.
Are posts like this one that remind me that, might it be us "humanizing" fictional characters, with real emotions, hurdles and feelings... but, boy, these are characters that feel very real. Thanks.

Thank you for the kind words and positive feedback—I’m glad I was able kindle your imagination—and for reminding us that there are whole worlds to explore in the liminal space between the panels of any given comic book page. I miss the narrative boxes and thought bubbles but have also come to realize that without them, we’re freer to explore and imagine what is and could be…

[brightnessatmidnight]

The cover of Immortal 1 apparently had some hints.

Enigma is written on the Krakoan gates and there's an image of a bird pecking a crown near Magneto on the Phoenix throne.

I'm not sure what the discussion was people were having when this cover was first revealed, but just some notable placements.

The Phoenix throne with the crown and bird is where Jesus would have been on the Last Supper.

Sinister =Judas
Exodus = Peter
Death = John who Jesus loved

https://comic-watch.com/uncategorize...nt-last-supper

[Omega_DCD]

Just had a snap thought...

What if that weird, distorted, broken-up sounding voice in the WHR at the end of NXM was A.I....what if it was the 5th Sinister/Enigma..."The Crown", with Jean being the White Phoenix of "The Crown".

[MechaJeanix]

Just had a snap thought...

What if that weird, distorted, broken-up sounding voice in the WHR at the end of NXM was A.I....what if it was the 5th Sinister/Enigma..."The Crown", with Jean being the White Phoenix of "The Crown".

I had the same thought. My brother and I discussed this yesterday. It would be wild and not sure if I’d like that since the voice seems good or neutral. My other idea it is the one above all lol

[PhoenixStudies]

I think originally the broken voice was suppose to be the Phoenix Consciousness. Jean did say in New 148 that the Phoenix talks to her.

But since it wasn't fully explained it can be reinterpreted.

If Sinister-Dominion aka Enigma reaches or controls the Crown (seemingly the highest level of being) how can the X-Men possibly defeat him?

[Odd Rödney]

If Sinister-Dominion aka Enigma reaches or controls the Crown (seemingly the highest level of being) how can the X-Men possibly defeat him?

Time travel is the first thing that comes to mind. Though I'm not even certain that would work.