Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2023: “A Red Dragon”

[Mercury]

Temper expectations, tbh.

Another rare instance in which I agree with you, not because I think this miniseries will be lackluster, but because I think we owe it to Jean and Simonson to be open and receptive to the story at hand. As fans, despite the fact that Jean and Phoenix have been seemingly kept apart, we have very little to complain about. For the last two years, she’s been central and depicted as complex and powerful, neither of which I think will change anytime soon. Let’s enjoy this.

[SugarMan]

How would Jean take action on past events? I don't recall actual time travel/chronoskimming as part of her powerset unless she developed that somewhere along the way. Reads just like a meditation on her life as she has her death experience. Hopefully leading to a conclusion that will propel her forward instead of retconning her own existence.
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Well, we know from reading the solicits that Jean is out of place and time. She’s searching for something, and it’s not just to reminisce about the old days. This is a woman who commands the Phoenix force, itself having the power to transcend. It also says she doesn’t know the power of her own mind, so we’ll see something with her we haven’t yet. From reading the other FOX books, we know that weeks have passed, and Jean hasn’t returned yet. So it’s not taking place while she’s dying at the gala. She’s on a journey, and will return.

[mike7171]

I am hoping at the end of this Jean mini-series that :

- that cocoon thing get retconned out of existence
- that what Progenitor said of Jean 'is phoenix now and forever' be set in stone
- that the she ends up like that Jean that whopped 4 Silver Surfers and Galactus and retain some of Teen Jean's personality

[johnnysv75]

I am hoping at the end of this Jean mini-series that :

- that cocoon thing get retconned out of existence
- that what Progenitor said of Jean 'is phoenix now and forever' be set in stone
- that the she ends up like that Jean that whopped 4 Silver Surfers and Galactus and retain some of Teen Jean's personality

Oh, don’t tease me so. This would be incredible!

While waiting for the first issue of ”Jean Grey”, I am re-reading Claremont’s X-Men issues with Jean as Phoenix. Does anyone know if others have written about Jean as Tiphareth? It is mentioned when Jean repairs the M’Kraan Crystal. It is an interesting idea, and something a writer like Gillen might like to examine further. It could be that it was only when she repaired the crystal, with the X-Men as her anchors, that she was Tiphareth, but I liked that image.

There are other interesting aspects to this issue (UXM 108) as well. When Jean repairs the crystal and saves the universe she sort of transcends from her human form to the form of the Phoenix. Could also be something that Gillen would like to explore.

[Phoenixx9]

Ah, Jean as Glorious Phoenix, the Psionic Goddess!

[The Thunderbird]

Oh, don’t tease me so. This would be incredible!

While waiting for the first issue of ”Jean Grey”, I am re-reading Claremont’s X-Men issues with Jean as Phoenix. Does anyone know if others have written about Jean as Tiphareth? It is mentioned when Jean repairs the M’Kraan Crystal. It is an interesting idea, and something a writer like Gillen might like to examine further. It could be that it was only when she repaired the crystal, with the X-Men as her anchors, that she was Tiphareth, but I liked that image.

There are other interesting aspects to this issue (UXM 108) as well. When Jean repairs the crystal and saves the universe she sort of transcends from her human form to the form of the Phoenix. Could also be something that Gillen would like to explore.

Something that I find fascinating about the original Phoenix saga was that there was no Phoenix Force. It was all Jean's mutant powers amplified to 11. I can't help but think that what if the Phoenix Force itself is a transcended Jean Grey (either from the future, from a previous universe like Galactus, or even a consequence of one of Jean's trips to the White Hot Room transcending time) and 616 Jean has the potential to evolve into another Phoenix Force level being without merging with a cosmic force.

[johnnysv75]

Something that I find fascinating about the original Phoenix saga was that there was no Phoenix Force. It was all Jean's mutant powers amplified to 11. I can't help but think that what if the Phoenix Force itself is a transcended Jean Grey (either from the future, from a previous universe like Galactus, or even a consequence of one of Jean's trips to the White Hot Room transcending time) and 616 Jean has the potential to evolve into another Phoenix Force level being without merging with a cosmic force.

It would be lovely if that was the case. I think that the Phoenix force is a transcended Jean from the future. BobbysWorld wrote a great ”essay” about this in the Jean Grey thread in … 2021?

[5cents]

- that the she ends up like that Jean that whopped 4 Silver Surfers and Galactus

I agree with this.

[johnnysv75]

Something that I find fascinating about the original Phoenix saga was that there was no Phoenix Force. It was all Jean's mutant powers amplified to 11. I can't help but think that what if the Phoenix Force itself is a transcended Jean Grey (either from the future, from a previous universe like Galactus, or even a consequence of one of Jean's trips to the White Hot Room transcending time) and 616 Jean has the potential to evolve into another Phoenix Force level being without merging with a cosmic force.

I dug up BobbysWorld’s old post. I think you will like it, Thunderbird.

I'm just copying and pasting my post from the Most Controversial X-Franchise opinion because of Johnnysv5's idea for the Phoenix and Jean.....because ironically, its actually pretty similar to one of the original ideas for Jean and omega mutants in general when they first did X-Men Forever in the 90s. Putting it here since not everybody goes into that thread obviously and its relevant to this particular discussion, I feel:

My controversial opinion on the X-Universe was I preferred the take where the Phoenix was always Jean and Jean was always the Phoenix. It was the basis behind the original X-Men Forever miniseries establishing omegas, and why Bobby was chosen as the other original omega aside from her. Basically the idea as I understood it was that the Phoenix was always the ultimate evolution of Jean herself, what she could grow to become in thousands of years, kept alive via her own mutant power and telekinetic control over her molecular structure and her psyche, until a point where she transcended the need for a physical body and just existed as the Phoenix. But as for the Phoenix existing in the past.....that's because Jean's ultimate omega potential was to exist as an entity of pure telekinetic and telepathic godhood anywhere in TIME and space. Because see, Nathan and Rachel inherited her powers.....and the idea was that Rachel's chronoskimming power, to psychically see through time, was supposed to be rooted in a latent aspect of Jean's own powers, something that would unlock with her full potential.

And thus that's how Jean would become the Phoenix but still exist millions of years in the past, and be the basis of the Shi'ar legends and all that, etc. And its ALSO why she and her descendants are the prime 'hosts' for the Phoenix.....because when the Phoenix 'possessed' her, it was really just Jean's fully evolved and transcended self REUNITING with its own initial human existence....and in the process being reminded of human wants, needs and concerns, what it was like to be human, something the Phoenix had forgotten due to its endless eons of existence. And similarly, when it bonded with Rachel, it was the connection to her daughter that Jean/The Phoenix was resonating with. That's why even though the Phoenix has always been hosted by telepaths, seeking a symbiosis with mortal minds that reminded it of its origins, Jean and Rachel were its 'true' hosts, because they were of it in a way no one else was.

And then that's also why Bobby was chosen to be the other omega mutant, because although Claremont created The First Fallen to be the Phoenix's opposite, the idea at the time that making Jean and the Phoenix one and the same was what was floating around the X-office, it was Bobby who was intended to be its opposite in that way......because Bobby's full omega potential isn't making ice or controlling water, its essentially.....stopping energy, taking it away. Ending things.

See, when X-Men Forever first floated the idea of omega mutants, it was in a story with Celestials, and the whole idea was that omegas were the ultimate culmination of the Celestials' experiments on Earth. They were the point, the end goal. Beings who would someday evolve to take the place of the current Abstracts like Oblivion and Death and become the mechanism that would end this universe and start the next one. Jean as the Phoenix and Bobby were the fundamental starting point/lynch pin of that concept, as at their ultimate evolution, millions of years in the future long after they'd transcended existing as mortal bodies and were just pure power and consciousness.....Bobby would be the inevitable heat-death of the universe, the one who finally just said to all things "Stop" and ground the mechanism of the current universe to a stop, all that is ending with the absolute death of heat, which is of course just the result of molecules in motion and without it, molecules have no motion and nothing anywhere moves or does anything.....and then his counterpart, Jean, the Phoenix, was the spark that would take the graveyard of this universe and use it as kindling to ignite the next Big Bang, birthing the next universe. With whatever other omegas existed/transcended by then being the only other things besides them that would survive, and then they'd be what created the mechanisms of the new universe and becoming the Abstract/Framework entities of the next universe.

[The Thunderbird]

I dug up BobbysWorld’s old post. I think you will like it, Thunderbird.

Sounds like a pretty good theory. Could explain why the Phoenix keeps resurrecting Jean and did not undo her resurrection when Jean parted ways with the Phoenix back in Phoenix Resurrection. Thanks.

[MechaJeanix]

Another rare instance in which I agree with you, not because I think this miniseries will be lackluster, but because I think we owe it to Jean and Simonson to be open and receptive to the story at hand. As fans, despite the fact that Jean and Phoenix have been seemingly kept apart, we have very little to complain about. For the last two years, she’s been central and depicted as complex and powerful, neither of which I think will change anytime soon. Let’s enjoy this.

I completely agree. I think this is going to be a fun story and we should enjoy it as it is. Plus since it is a 4 part mini we will not get all the answers in the first issue. By the last issue we'll see how this story impacts Jean going forward and what effect it may have when Jean shows back up in Immortal.

I do wonder if originally this mini was supposed to be like the other flashback tales like the Storm and Magneto minis but it was sort of re-worked to be set in the current time due to the events of the Hellfire Gala. I say this because there was a post (and I wish I had screen grabbed it) in an X-men facebook group where a fan claimed to have talked to Louise at a convention and said she wasn't sure how the mini fit in with Fall of X (of course if true she may have just been coy).

I am glad Jean is getting a mini and having some additional focus. I expect Jean might reconnect to the Phoenix but even if she doesn't it still sounds like she's going to play a big role going forward.

[Ingonyama]

So, if I'm reading this right...the theory is just Jean's line about "I'm always Jean, and I'm always the Phoenix" from Endsong writ large? The Phoenix Force retroactively became Jean Grey when it merged with her, so that it had always been Jean? I know time travel is a component of its powers...as we're about to see, hopefully.

[loke13]

So, if I'm reading this right...the theory is just Jean's line about "I'm always Jean, and I'm always the Phoenix" from Endsong writ large? The Phoenix Force retroactively became Jean Grey when it merged with her, so that it had always been Jean? I know time travel is a component of its powers...as we're about to see, hopefully.

Honestly if it was me I wouldn't even bother with an explanation. I was just make sure it was always the case and to hell with the fans who want to scream about continuity *shrug*

[loke13]

Honestly, as excited as I am about this mini-series, I'm even more excited about Immortal X-Men 17. That one seems like it's going to be jeans big debut/ resurrection not to mention they put Gillen in charge of whatever new trajectory Jean might have coming out of FoX and apparently he had to do a deep dive into her continuity in order to do it justice. Those little tidbits alone make me extremely excited. Especially since this is supposed to be mutants at their lowest. I feel like the resurrection of Jean is going to signify the beginning of the mutants "Rise" after their most recent fall.

And with the death of Magneto, Moira joing the enemy, and Charles effectively broken and ostracized all the old guard is pretty much dead. So I'm very curious to see what this new status quo is going to look like. Especially since it doesn't seem like they're doing away with Krakoa entirely.

[Celestialbodies]

Another rare instance in which I agree with you, not because I think this miniseries will be lackluster, but because I think we owe it to Jean and Simonson to be open and receptive to the story at hand. As fans, despite the fact that Jean and Phoenix have been seemingly kept apart, we have very little to complain about. For the last two years, she’s been central and depicted as complex and powerful, neither of which I think will change anytime soon. Let’s enjoy this.

I agree, I might not always have agreed with how she was used month to month, but taken as a whole from X-men #1 to Hellfire Gala 2023, this has been perhaps one of Jean's strongest, most consistent usage ever! From her abilities, to leadership, to relationships this run has done a fairly good job "re-introducing" Jean Grey in the Krakoan era. Duggan is mostly responsible for establishing and maintaining Jean's presence helped alongside by Gillen!

Honestly, as excited as I am about this mini-series, I'm even more excited about Immortal X-Men 17. That one seems like it's going to be jeans big debut/ resurrection not to mention they put Gillen in charge of whatever new trajectory Jean might have coming out of FoX and apparently he had to do a deep dive into her continuity in order to do it justice. Those little tidbits alone make me extremely excited. Especially since this is supposed to be mutants at their lowest. I feel like the resurrection of Jean is going to signify the beginning of the mutants "Rise" after their most recent fall.

And with the death of Magneto, Moira joing the enemy, and Charles effectively broken and ostracized all the old guard is pretty much dead. So I'm very curious to see what this new status quo is going to look like. Especially since it doesn't seem like they're doing away with Krakoa entirely.

Which brings me to why I'm also so excited about her appearance in IM #17, I don't know what Gillen has cooked up, but I haven't been this excited about her direction since she joined X-men.


I look forward to the mini, I don't have expectations oddly enough, I'm mostly fascinated by the in-depth thought put into giving Jean narrative connective tissue between the Gala, to her mini, to joining Immortal, I can't express how excited I am for her. The chance to push herself even further, but the thing I'm excited about the most is seeing Jean play off characters like Mystique, Destiny, Sinister, "Revelation", Storm, Exodus, Selene, Shaw, Nightcrawler, and Shadowkat, the possibilities for stories with her and the selection of characters is so tempting.