Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2023: “A Red Dragon”

[Mercury]

Great points, Omega_DCD. Now, for a palette cleanser…

Rebecca Essex and Jean Grey then…

[Mercury]

Mother Righteous and Phoenix now…

[Thirteen]

To paraphrase the kids today:

EMMA FROST PHOENIXed around and FOUND OUT.

[loke13]

Mother Righteous and Phoenix now…

I really hope we get a panel of the of Jean curb stomping MR because this panel fuels me with rage.

Also unpopular opinion but I actually like MR as a villain for the X-Men. Hell she's a more scarier threat to me than Orchis is now.

[Omega_DCD]

Great points, Omega_DCD. Now, for a palette cleanser…

Rebecca Essex and Jean Grey then…

Thanks Mercury, and thanks for the comparison scans...speaking of well deserved smack downs, I can't wait for Mother Righteous to be on the receiving end of hers. Magic based characters tend to annoy me anyway since their powers tend to broad, ill-defined and most of all, convenient.

[Grinning Soul]

Possibly besides being killed off this is perhaps my worst fear about how Jean gets written. For Jean to start morally backsliding over a period of time before she ultimately goes down the same path as Beast. Although it seems that historically Jean tends to bounce back from her moral lows.

You know, I hadn't thought it could get that bad for Jean, but then I considered what happened to Beast had its roots in Morison's run, which was what? About 20 years ago?

A writer gave him a jerk move here, because of the influence of said run. Another gave him other jerk move there. And then it was a slippery slope.

90s Hank was one of the most lovable characters around and before that he was mostly a hero.

If you traveled in time and asked a reader in the 90s (or earlier) if they could imagine Marvel doing to Hank what Percy did, I'd say most would consider it unthinkable...

So... I don't know, you may have a point here, Thurnderbird.

Again: that's what happens when editors *and* fans consider continuity and character consistency as something which is not essential.

--

Before anyone makes a silly comment about it: character development exists within character consistency. It can *only* exists like this. If you don't understand that, please, don't even mention it. I'm *not* advocating for characters to remain static.

[Braxxer]

You know, I hadn't thought it could get that bad for Jean, but then I considered what happened to Beast had its roots in Morison's run, which was what? About 20 years ago?

A writer gave him a jerk move here, because of the influence of said run. Another gave him other jerk move there. And then it was a slippery slope.

90s Hank was one of the most lovable characters around and before that he was mostly a hero.

If you traveled in time and asked a reader in the 90s (or earlier) if they could imagine Marvel doing to Hank what Percy did, I'd say most would consider it unthinkable...

Even Morrison doesn’t understand what xoffice is doing with Hank right now. They said their beast would never become a villain

[Grinning Soul]

Even Morrison doesn’t understand what xoffice is doing with Hank right now. They said their beast would never become a villain

That's true. I don't like Morrison's portrayal of Hank (at best it's off, like most characters in his run), but he was not written as a villain. Somehow, the writers that came after really liked this idea, though, and completely ignored Sublime's role.

They first started using Dark Beast, then they confused Dark Beast with 616-Hank (I've seen fans making the same mistake).

It's interesting to try understand what happened there. But it's tragic for 616-Hank.

And if it happened to him, I don't see why it couldn't happen to other characters (to a lesser degree, at least).

[The Thunderbird]

You know, I hadn't thought it could get that bad for Jean, but then I considered what happened to Beast had its roots in Morison's run, which was what? About 20 years ago?

A writer gave him a jerk move here, because of the influence of said run. Another gave him other jerk move there. And then it was a slippery slope.

90s Hank was one of the most lovable characters around and before that he was mostly a hero.

If you traveled in time and asked a reader in the 90s (or earlier) if they could imagine Marvel doing to Hank what Percy did, I'd say most would consider it unthinkable...

So... I don't know, you may have a point here, Thurnderbird.

Again: that's what happens when editors *and* fans consider continuity and character consistency as something which is not essential.

--

Before anyone makes a silly comment about it: character development exists within character consistency. It can *only* exists like this. If you don't understand that, please, don't even mention it. I'm *not* advocating for characters to remain static.

While I doubt that Jean will ever sink to the lows Beast did I really don't want Jean to lose her good heart. I feel like of all her personality traits having lots of love is what makes her stand out and is perhaps her biggest strength. Before anyone comes at me for defending "carebear Jean" I have to state that Jean being a good person does not by any means contradict her more fearsome personality traits. In fact as the Mama Bear trope shows her caring demeanor can even cause her to cut loose at times when those she cares about. Her heart can also play a role in some of her other flaws too like from getting herself killed by Xorneto or proclaiming "love is enough" to Scott on the eve of Orchis' attack on the Hellfire Gala.

[Micabe]

That's true. I don't like Morrison's portrayal of Hank (at best it's off, like most characters in his run), but he was not written as a villain. Somehow, the writers that came after really liked this idea, though, and completely ignored Sublime's role.

They first started using Dark Beast, then they confused Dark Beast with 616-Hank (I've seen fans making the same mistake).

It's interesting to try understand what happened there. But it's tragic for 616-Hank.

And if it happened to him, I don't see why it couldn't happen to other characters (to a lesser degree, at least).

And, now that you've mentioned it, I do believe Sublime Beast had to be the final straw for poor ol' Henry McCoy.



Remember the all encompassing White Hot Phoenix Egg or the Proud People?

Yeah, me neither

[PyroFN]

I don't consider Jean a bully really. She's not the one who likes to pick on those weaker than herself to assert her own power. What I see Jean as is someone who is quite dangerous when angered and wouldn't hesitate to use her telepathy to break those she considers to be in the wrong. Case in point the battle against Professor Power in the early 90s.
Attachment 135890

I have used the “bully” line before for Jean. But not in its actual intended use. This is what I meant personally all those times. Which is no more than once or twice in the past because she isn’t a literal bully. She has a very big temper, but you really have to push her patience over its limit. This is the woman who wrestles a cosmic force mentally and wins more times than she loses. If you drove Jean over the edge, it’s a “you had it coming” moment.

Jean’s adversaries and rivals use the bully line moreso as a deflection or justification for going against Jean Grey, not wanting to take accountability of their own actions more times than not. A better way to describe Jean is very, very pushy. She thinks herself a moral authority (who doesn’t? Lol) and expects others to at the very least be a decent person under most circumstances.

Writing-wise, it’s good for farming drama in stories. At its best, it highlights a pitfall Jean must avoid about herself or else she will actually become dangerous, like she did in Jean Grey vol 2 #1. So, to agree with basically every Jean fan here, the “bully” line, while very powerful in those moments it’s used, is in no way actually accurate for Jean Grey.

[PyroFN]

I really hope we get a panel of the of Jean curb stomping MR because this panel fuels me with rage.

Also unpopular opinion but I actually like MR as a villain for the X-Men. Hell she's a more scarier threat to me than Orchis is now.

Agreed actually. I love the imagery of hearts. The color red is my favorite. I love contradictory characters who are cute/pretty, but dangerous. (Think Pikachu or, well, Jean Grey, lol)

Mother Righteous fills that very well.

[PyroFN]

That's true. I don't like Morrison's portrayal of Hank (at best it's off, like most characters in his run), but he was not written as a villain. Somehow, the writers that came after really liked this idea, though, and completely ignored Sublime's role.

They first started using Dark Beast, then they confused Dark Beast with 616-Hank (I've seen fans making the same mistake).

It's interesting to try understand what happened there. But it's tragic for 616-Hank.

And if it happened to him, I don't see why it couldn't happen to other characters (to a lesser degree, at least).

I think the only real way they can turn this around is make real Beast the new Dark Beast of the 616. Considering that they basically are bringing back Beast from his Avengers days (the speedo wearing Beast; pre-cat Beast), I think it is all but guaranteed at this point. It makes too much sense after how far Beast has fallen.

[Icefanatic]

I think the only real way they can turn this around is make real Beast the new Dark Beast of the 616. Considering that they basically are bringing back Beast from his Avengers days (the speedo wearing Beast; pre-cat Beast), I think it is all but guaranteed at this point. It makes too much sense after how far Beast has fallen.

I expect current Beast will kill the Beast from the past.

[Grinning Soul]

While I doubt that Jean will ever sink to the lows Beast did I really don't want Jean to lose her good heart. I feel like of all her personality traits having lots of love is what makes her stand out and is perhaps her biggest strength. Before anyone comes at me for defending "carebear Jean" I have to state that Jean being a good person does not by any means contradict her more fearsome personality traits. In fact as the Mama Bear trope shows her caring demeanor can even cause her to cut loose at times when those she cares about. Her heart can also play a role in some of her other flaws too like from getting herself killed by Xorneto or proclaiming "love is enough" to Scott on the eve of Orchis' attack on the Hellfire Gala.

I’ve *never* met a Jean Grey fan who would want Jean to only be a carebear, so I don’t really get why those fans (who use this term as something pejorative) have this need to come at other fans.

What I see is that the fans who do like her compassionate and nurturing side, also like *everything* else about the character.

Personally, I want her to be her lovely and loving self, just as much I want her to be her pragmatic self (which is why I effing hate the “love is enough.” It’s the because of the “enough”, not the love. If she had said “love is essential” or “love is fundamental” or “without love, we’ll fail”, I’d have squealed), her idealistic self (yes, she is contradictory, which is why “enough” doesn’t work, but “essential” does -- she is effing hard to write) and yes, I want to see that volcanic temperament. Meaning, I want to see a little smoke every now and then, eruptions of different degrees sporadically and a Krakatoa eruption once in a blue moon.

I could go on and on about all the facets of her personality that I want the writers to get right. All of them. I don’t want her to become a flat character. So while I love her empathetic side, I don’t want her to become a “carebear” either.

But, again, I’ve never met a fan who does.

So I get what you're saying. Don't worry.

And, now that you've mentioned it, I do believe Sublime Beast had to be the final straw for poor ol' Henry McCoy.

Remember the all encompassing White Hot Phoenix Egg or the Proud People?

Yeah, me neither :p

If Sublime Beast had been the last straw, though, he’d just be an AU villain that people might not remember much. So, I'd say it would have been the dream. :(

AoA Alex is horrible, but luckily for 616 Alex, he did not influence other writers. At least not to the extent of poor Beast.

As for Morrison’s run, you’re *always* welcome to write to me in private if you want to discuss it (or bitch about it. I’m joking but I mean it). Lots of people love the run here, though, so chances are they'll feel attacked and lash back. There’s no reason for us to get overly negative about it only derail to thread with another in-fight with other fans, right? :)

I think the only real way they can turn this around is make real Beast the new Dark Beast of the 616. Considering that they basically are bringing back Beast from his Avengers days (the speedo wearing Beast; pre-cat Beast), I think it is all but guaranteed at this point. It makes too much sense after how far Beast has fallen.

It’s possible, they’d do this indeed. Personally, I don’t want it to happen, though.

Generally speaking, I dislike clone/doubles or different versions of the same character running around. But that’s just my preference.

Whatever they do, I’m just hoping we can have *a* version of Beast who is bright, heroic, good-humored and extra bonus points for lovable fur-ball (though I like fur-less Hank too).