Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2023: “A Red Dragon”

[Daedra]

So much negativity in this thread for a mini series that hasnt even been released yet. I know I for one am riding a high and cant wait to see what Louise has in store for Jean. I expect it to be a great read and look forward to seeing Jean as the lead character for 4 issues straight as it positions her as one of the most important figures of Fall of X



Its Jean's time to shine and Im here for it

How many times can I fall in love with this Woman !? I love this art, Green Phoenix is where is at for me!

Ps. I wonder why they went for the blue eyes, looks like a conscious choice, everybody know Jean’s eyes are green

[Phoenixx9]

How many times can I fall in love with this Woman !? I love this art, Green Phoenix is where is at for me!

Ps. I wonder why they went for the blue eyes, looks like a conscious choice, everybody know Jean’s eyes are green

I've been in love with Jean through all of her lows and highs.

Only those of us who really know Jean, lol, are aware of her awesome green eyes. Sadly, this does not include all Marvel staff nor others who draw her. But also, I think that they think the blue stands out from the green costume more than green eyes.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Ps. I wonder why they went for the blue eyes, looks like a conscious choice, everybody know Jean’s eyes are green

It's Phil Noto. They nearly always color her eyes blue instead of green.

[andreikes]

''DON'T COMPARE yourself to me. ever! you are not on my level''

Fyw8UrBXgBcY3pM.jpg

and wearing communism

[Havok83]

It's Phil Noto. They nearly always color her eyes blue instead of green.

Its at least green on the upcoming HG cover

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

10K!!!!! Sheesh!
Phoenix Jean >>>>>>>>>>


I never realized Mark Brooks' colors are pencil. Anyway, dude is elite.

Its at least green on the upcoming HG cover

Yeah, I was sure I had seen it correct recently.

[Portsian]

lmao. I can't stay angry at you, Kitty. ::sigh:: But I will say this:

CAN YOU TRY TO ENJOY THE RIDE AND BE OPEN TO THE POSSIBILITIES? PLEASE! AND STOP TRYING TO FORETELL SOMETHING—ANYTHING—ABOUT THIS STORY THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FORETELL! YOU'RE APOPLECTIC OVER A COVER AND SNIPPET OF SYNOPSIS, WHICH ARE NOTORIOUSLY MISLEADING. Jesus.

Mercury, there is a reason for the block / ignore function. Use it, don’t give yourself a heart attack. This person has been on my ignore a long time and I feel much gentler having done so.

[JB]

Oooo delicious.

[Havok83]

He should do variants to every issue!

[Mercury]

Who is apoplectic? Dismissive is not necessarily apopletic.

You become indignant, going as far as to personally insult creators as you project what you perceive their intentions to be onto them, all the while insulting Jean and, consequently, her fans. And rather than view her as a whole character, you compartmentalize her, valuing only her times as Phoenix and pretty much discrediting and denouncing the rest. As I previously noted, you don't give her story room to breathe. This is not only an insult and disservice to her but also to her fans. Frankly, it seems the last iteration of her you truly care about is 20 years old. Ultimately, if you so vehemently dislike what's been done with her since the turn of the century, I don't get why you continue to keep up with her goings and doings and find it necessary to repeatedly vent your sardonic opinions and displeasure in her APPRECIATION thread. You may not find much to appreciate about her, but her other fans do.

As for me, Jean is my favorite character because of her contradictions and seeming inconsistencies. I love the unpredictability of her characterizations, that she has been depicted as both the weakest and most powerful, and that she has been shown to be flawed but also virtuous and altruistic. These qualities and characteristics give her shades and textures lacking in many other characters, who are frequently rendered using a limited palette of traits. As for Jean's legacy and history as Phoenix, we've established that our views and interpretations of both are completely different, practically diametrically opposed. And while you pine to see her become Phoenix while diminishing the details of her identity as such, rashly attacking any stories and creators that have not explicitly resulted in or produced this outcome, I focus on the nuances in those stories that have preserved her history, legacy, and identity as such.

Here you go jumping to conclusions when nobody said they only like Jean because of Phoenix. It’s just tiring seeing JEAN’S LEGACY being stripped away from her for the sake of a new status quo. Jean when she is Phoenix is a brilliant character and when she isn’t Phoenix she is still a brilliant character but they don’t need to butcher the Phoenix for the sake of giving Jean a plot that she’s already been through countless times. I think her Revolution Era / New X-Men Era was the perfect blend of being Jean Grey and The Phoenix simultaneously.

When all some fans talk about is "When is she going to become Phoenix?", "Why isn't she Phoenix?", "They'll never let her be Phoenix again!", "They've destroyed her as a character!", "They continue to destroy her as a character!", etc., it's difficult to think they care about anything else.

This is Jean's appreciation thread, not a place for fans to endlessly vent their dislike of her characterization. Frankly, fans who do so lack a complete sense of etiquette as far as I'm concerned.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

You become indignant, going as far as to personally insult creators as you project what you perceive their intentions to be onto them, all the while insulting Jean and, consequently, her fans. And rather than view her as a whole character, you compartmentalize her, valuing only her times as Phoenix and pretty much discrediting and denouncing the rest. As I previously noted, you don't give her story room to breathe. This is not only an insult and disservice to her but also to her fans. Frankly, it seems the last iteration of her you truly care about is 20 years old. Ultimately, if you so vehemently dislike what's been done with her since the turn of the century, I don't get why you continue to keep up with her goings and doings and find it necessary to repeatedly vent your sardonic opinions and displeasure in her APPRECIATION thread. You may not find much to appreciate about her, but her other fans do.

As for me, Jean is my favorite character because of her contradictions and seeming inconsistencies. I love the unpredictability of her characterizations, that she has been depicted as both the weakest and most powerful, and that she has been shown to be flawed but also virtuous and altruistic. These qualities and characteristics give her shades and textures lacking in many other characters, who are frequently rendered using a limited palette of traits. As for Jean's legacy and history as Phoenix, we've established that our views and interpretations of both are completely different, practically diametrically opposed. And while you pine to see her become Phoenix while diminishing the details of her identity as such, rashly attacking any stories and creators that have not explicitly resulted in or produced this outcome, I focus on the nuances in those stories that have preserved her history, legacy, and identity as such.



When all some fans talk about is "When is she going to become Phoenix?", "Why isn't she Phoenix?", "They'll never let her be Phoenix again!", "They've destroyed her as a character!", "They continue to destroy her as a character!", etc., it's difficult to think they care about anything else.

This is Jean's appreciation thread, not a place for fans to endlessly vent their dislike of her characterization. Frankly, fans who do so lack a complete sense of etiquette as far as I'm concerned.

You are I think pretty much the only person I've seen trying to insult "her fans" lol in here. Dramatize as you will, but it is ironic that you presume to police what others should care about. You literally do not care how the character is presented, save for one aspect (and that's ok!), and yet you "project" that line of thinking.

Regarding Phoenix, while I don't think anyone has said that it has destroyed her, the sexual politics behind why she can't have her powers and iconography are quite destructive. And hilariously antiquated. John Byrne hasn't been on the books in literal ages and we are still dealing with his same trashy thinking.

[jwatson]

You are I think pretty much the only person I've seen trying to insult "her fans" lol in here. Dramatize as you will, but it is ironic that you presume to police what others should care about. You literally do not care how the character is presented, save for one aspect (and that's ok!), and yet you "project" that line of thinking.

Regarding Phoenix, while I don't think anyone has said that it has destroyed her, the sexual politics behind why she can't have her powers and iconography are quite destructive. And hilariously antiquated. John Byrne hasn't been on the books in literal ages and we are still dealing with his same trashy thinking.

I was going to send this in a DM but i felt it would be wrong so i just wanted to say bless your heart. The way you deal with the gaslighting in this thread is exemplary. I don't know why there is such a strong need to silence your voice but i appreciate you respectfully talk about things a lot of us jean fans worry about and want for her, despite the sometimes over the top responses you get from what seems like Marvel payroll. I agree with a lot of your wants for Jean. And i do not think this has been great era for her. it has brought her back and given her awareness but it is not where Jean could be right now and waiting for the crumbs of something Echo just had is not a good look.

And just to be clear for those who don't get it the gaslighting for me is "i want jean to be phoenix and i want jean to be this and that" and it's like oohh and ahh and that's appreciating jean but someone saying "well what i want for jean is her to stand on her own." and because that doesn't align with what the other person wants it becomes, "well your just being negative in an appreciation thread" when maybe they appreciate different things about jean she is not seeing. Why focus so much energy on pointing out what you feel someone else is being negative about if your secure what is happening is what you want. It's like i'm getting what i want so i want you to be silent or it's not appreciation

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Aww thanks, jwatson. Honestly, I don’t comprehend the desire for anything close to some kind of hivemind

[Mercury]

You are I think pretty much the only person I've seen trying to insult "her fans" lol in here. Dramatize as you will, but it is ironic that you presume to police what others should care about. You literally do not care how the character is presented, save for one aspect (and that's ok!), and yet you "project" that line of thinking.

If noting what certain fans repeatedly do in this thread—i.e., gripe, complain, and offer negative takes—constitutes insulting them, then I'm certainly guilty as charged. And what's this "one aspect" I care so much about to the exclusion of everything else about Jean? After all, I'm not the one constantly obsessing over and regurgitating my displeasure with that one aspect of her identity. In fact, I'm pretty clear on that one aspect: Jean is Phoenix, and Phoenix is Jean. And, again, until the powers that be officially and explicitly nullify that, rather than confirm it the way they recently did, I will maintain my stance, which I have plenty of receipts to substantiate.

Regarding Phoenix, while I don't think anyone has said that it has destroyed her, the sexual politics behind why she can't have her powers and iconography are quite destructive. And hilariously antiquated.

Generally, I agree with you about this. However, I think you tend to presume most of the creators that have handled Jean have nefarious intentions based on warped sexual politics, and that's what I think blinds you to the good that has been done with her; it's also where I vehemently disagree with you. Not to mention, you're obsessed with blaming her relationship with Scott for everything. I mean, I'm certainly not a "Jott shipper," but I can at least recognize and admire the aspects of their pairing that have worked and continue to work. In either case, I think you should just finally admit that you won't be happy or stop complaining until she explicitly identifies as and manifests Phoenix.

John Byrne hasn't been on the books in literal ages and we are still dealing with his same trashy thinking.

Are we, though? She's alive and well and as powerful as she's ever been—I'd argue more than ever (she even awoke a slew of souls recently)—when not manifesting Phoenix. She's also central to Fall of X, unlike many characters.

I was going to send this in a DM but i felt it would be wrong so i just wanted to say bless your heart. The way you deal with the gaslighting in this thread is exemplary.

You'd know lots about gaslighting, wouldn't you? One minute, particularly when it comes to Jean, "old stories" don't count; the next minute, especially when it comes to substantiating Ororo's godhood, those "old stories" must be adhered to and revered like sacred texts. Even though, going by your standards for Jean and Phoenix, the current stories have sort of contradicted and ignored Ororo's godhood. She did die twice after receiving help to boost her powers, after all. Frankly, you're so biased, it would be annoying if it weren't so hilariously obvious.

I don't know why there is such a strong need to silence your voice but i appreciate you respectfully talk about things a lot of us jean fans worry about and want for her...

And what exactly do you want for her? You don't seem to ever get that far in your responses in this thread. You sort of stop short at everything you think the writers and powers that be are doing wrong with her. And, based on your comment below, you don't see Phoenix as anything integral to Jean's identity, legacy, or history, referring to it as "crumbs" the way you do, so it seems you don't agree that much with Kitty. And let's not even get into you ignoring the "old stories"—and the current ones, for that matter—that have made it clear Jean and Phoenix are one and the same, or you recently criticizing Jean for not kowtowing to Scott about the Brood. She even "pissed [you] off" because she made a joke about it being her “job” to "stomp Scott." (I actually think Kitty quite liked both these instances.) So, really, what is it that you want for Jean?

despite the sometimes over the top responses you get from what seems like Marvel payroll.

Oh, how I wish.

I agree with a lot of your wants for Jean.

Do you? Because, as I noted above, this...

...and waiting for the crumbs of something Echo just had is not a good look.

...doesn't seem like you agree that much with Kitty or respect Jean's legacy and history.

And i do not think this has been great era for her. it has brought her back and given her awareness but it is not where Jean could be right now

I can respect your opinion. Of course, I disagree with it, but you're entitled to have it.

[Mercury]

I just saw that you edited this into your post and wanted to respond.

And just to be clear for those who don't get it the gaslighting for me is "i want jean to be phoenix and i want jean to be this and that" and it's like oohh and ahh and that's appreciating jean but someone saying "well what i want for jean is her to stand on her own." and because that doesn't align with what the other person wants it becomes, "well your just being negative in an appreciation thread" when maybe they appreciate different things about jean she is not seeing.

Who is saying this, and who is responding in such a manner, though? Who is saying, "well what I want for jean is her to stand on her own" versus "i want jean to be phoenix," only to be countered by someone saying, "well your just being negative in an appreciation thread"?

Frankly, since becoming a member here two years ago, I've taken both stances in this thread. On the one hand, I've stated that I'm happy she's not manifesting Phoenix and has been allowed to shine and grow while not under the weight of such an iconic and powerful beyond-comprehension burden. However, I've also made it clear that I respect and adhere to her history, which has repeatedly made it clear—more often than not, i.e., more often than it has negated this distinction—that she and Phoenix are one and the same. And I've experienced more backlash for suggesting the former than for insisting on the latter. So, you're examples aren't really clicking.

Are you perhaps trying to say that you'd rather she not be Phoenix and "stand on her own"?

Why focus so much energy on pointing out what you feel someone else is being negative about if your secure what is happening is what you want. It's like i'm getting what i want so i want you to be silent or it's not appreciation

First, because it's the same people complaining the same complaints over and over, more often than not, with no evidence or concrete examples to substantiate their complaints and negativity, save for, "They're not letting her be Phoenix because reasons" or "They're not letting her shine like they're letting other characters shine because reasons." Second, because this is an appreciation thread, which should include some level of criticism and even negativity but not be dominated by either. Third, because the constant complaining and doomsaying sort of undercuts and takes the focus off of those fans who are sharing what they're enjoying about Jean's current handling and development.