Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2023: “A Red Dragon”

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Jean became White Phoenix after her death on the Moon, and then was revealed to be in a cocoon, then became White Phoenix again in Here Comes Tomorrow, and was revealed to be dead in Phoenix Endsong, and then became White Phoenix again. So, really, flip-flopping from dead to White Phoenix is nothing new. Besides, Jean being depicted as dead and ascending and becoming the White Phoenix of the Crown are not mutually exclusive.



You let your slip show. Frankly, this kind of thinking is why I tend and will continue to counter your fallacious claims. You're being illogical, and this statement is not based on anything factual.



I already addressed this above. Again: Jean being dead and ascending and becoming the White Phoenix of the Crown are not mutually exclusive.

I don't know that Jean "became White Phoenix of the Crown" after her death on the moon. They did show her hanging out with a manifestation of Death as he made space for the D'Bari.

Reading this made me go back and look at the setup for Endsong again. I had forgotten how it all starts. Some guys use their machine that makes Phoenix Forces to...kill the Phoenix Force they just made? I dunno lol. Regardless it would make sense for there to be a dead Jean body in Endsong, as she actually did die in the Morrison run. She is reborn in an egg, and then becomes White Phoenix of the Crown, without touching her dead shell. So that continuity leading to the Phoenix Force resurrected a dead Jean can, eh, kinda be hacked together, if we squint? lol. Anyway, that's irrelevant to how Endsong left her merged with the Phoenix, gathering her pieces or whatever. Rosenberg then decides, oh yeah that didn't happen, girl is in the ground again.

As for the White Phoenix panel in Phoenix Rosenberg, the point of the panel and the point of the panel with the red Phoenix costume is that she is hunched when wears those. It is meant to be negative. Don't look at me, I didn't write the thing.


And then you didn't answer the question. How is the Phoenix looking to resurrect Jean against her will if she is merged with the Phoenix having become White Phoenix of the Crown? The Phoenix is right there with her, holding her captive in an imaginary town for some dumb, Rosenbergesque reason. How is that indicating that she/they/whatever is the White Phoenix of the Crown? That looks to decidedly not be the case based on this story.


That's why the sooner someone dumps on it, retcons it, and gives it some secret history to subvert it, the better.

[Mercury]

I don't know that Jean "became White Phoenix of the Crown" after her death on the moon. They did show her hanging out with a manifestation of Death as he made space for the D'Bari.

One can infer that she did become White Phoenix since Claremont made a point of alluding to there being a clear distinction between the colors of the different Phoenix uniforms.

Reading this made me go back and look at the setup for Endsong again. I had forgotten how it all starts. Some guys use their machine that makes Phoenix Forces to...kill the Phoenix Force they just made? I dunno lol. Regardless it would make sense for there to be a dead Jean body in Endsong, as she actually did die in the Morrison run. She is reborn in an egg, and then becomes White Phoenix of the Crown, without touching her dead shell. So that continuity leading to the Phoenix Force resurrected a dead Jean can, eh, kinda be hacked together, if we squint? lol. Anyway, that's irrelevant to how Endsong left her merged with the Phoenix, gathering her pieces or whatever.

Most people fall into the trap of wanting Jean's Phoenix mythos to be clear, neat, and simple. That's simply not the case. Besides, if she is truly one with Phoenix, what happens to her corporeal form is irrelevant. That is, it has no bearing on her transcendence as, to use Claremont's words, "an entity of pure thought." Of course, her dead body can be used as an in-story and out-of-story ruse to mislead characters and readers, but her body being used to resurrect her does not diminish or put into question her identity as Phoenix or White Phoenix.

Rosenberg then decides, oh yeah that didn't happen, girl is in the ground again.

And again, you're projecting your assumption and, dare I say, your own headcanon onto Rosenberg's story because you're pissed off he didn't end said story with Jean embracing her birthright as Phoenix. This is petty, uncreative, simple-minded, and not based on anything factual.

As for the White Phoenix panel in Phoenix Rosenberg, the point of the panel and the point of the panel with the red Phoenix costume is that she is hunched when wears those. It is meant to be negative. Don't look at me, I didn't write the thing.

Are you being serious here? "The point of the panel...is that she is hunched"? lmao. ::sigh:: I can't right now.

And then you didn't answer the question. How is the Phoenix looking to resurrect Jean against her will if she is merged with the Phoenix having become White Phoenix of the Crown? The Phoenix is right there with her, holding her captive in an imaginary town for some dumb, Rosenbergesque reason. How is that indicating that she/they/whatever is the White Phoenix of the Crown? That looks to decidedly not be the case based on this story.

How about this: Since Jean and Phoenix are one, Phoenix Resurrection constitutes a battle akin to a battle between the id, ego, and superego. Think about it.

[Jeanspryde]

Jean collecting Phoenix shards is canon since we’ve seen her take the Phoenix away from Rachel and the Cuckoos mid-battle

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

One can infer that she did become White Phoenix since Claremont made a point of alluding to there being a clear distinction between the colors of the different Phoenix uniforms.





Most people fall into the trap of wanting Jean's Phoenix mythos to be clear, neat, and simple. That's simply not the case. Besides, if she is truly one with Phoenix, what happens to her corporeal form is irrelevant. That is, it has no bearing on her transcendence as, to use Claremont's words, "an entity of pure thought." Of course, her dead body can be used as an in-story and out-of-story ruse to mislead characters and readers, but her body being used to resurrect her does not diminish or put into question her identity as Phoenix or White Phoenix.



And again, you're projecting your assumption and, dare I say, your own headcanon onto Rosenberg's story because you're pissed off he didn't end said story with Jean embracing her birthright as Phoenix. This is petty, uncreative, simple-minded, and not based on anything factual.



Are you being serious here? "The point of the panel...is that she is hunched"? lmao. ::sigh:: I can't right now.



How about this: Since Jean and Phoenix are one, Phoenix Resurrection constitutes a battle akin to a battle between the id, ego, and superego. Think about it.

No projecting, and no adding my own context either. She is literally being resurrected by the Phoenix against her will, decidedly not being White Phoenix of the Crown, or whatever in Phoenix Resurrection. Anything contrary to that is your headcanon.

The panels of the hunched Red Phoenix and White Phoenix in comparison to the other versions of her are there on the page, but subtle enough. I looked for a while and couldn't find where the writer talks about these panels, so we'll just say for funsies that I totally made that up. End of the day, is the Phoenix Resurrection mini about honoring Jean Phoenix or trying to take away from it? The story is pretty clear in its opinion of that aspect of Jean's stories.


As for a battle between the aspects of Jean's personality, I could see that as potentially more palatable than what we got, which was essentially just "grrrr Phoenix bad, go back to 60s."


I don't forget that he didn't want Jean Grey leading a team either.

[MarquisAsh]

Did any other Phoenix host have specific colors like Jean?

[Celestialbodies]

Orlando's Jean was cool. I really like what I saw, and wouldn't mind seeing him write more of Jean in the future.

Agreed, I enjoy how he uses her powers with intention and mastery.

[Micabe]

One can infer that she did become White Phoenix since Claremont made a point of alluding to there being a clear distinction between the colors of the different Phoenix uniforms.

Heh! Oddly enough Jean hadn't noticed that her costume had changed until she looked at it and had no idea what it meant or why being dead and all...

[Mercury]

No projecting, and no adding my own context either.

You literally accused Joe Bennett of drawing Jean in her White Phoenix regalia "to shit on it." Clearly, neutrality and objectivity aren't your strong points in this debate.

She is literally being resurrected by the Phoenix against her will, decidedly not being White Phoenix of the Crown, or whatever in Phoenix Resurrection.

And the same happened in Phoenix Endsong. Moreover, since Jean first manifested Phoenix in 1976, she has grappled with her identity and feelings of dissociation and displacement, continuously questioning whether she is actually Jean, Phoenix, or both. It's a recurring theme in her push-and-pull journey toward apotheosis. Phoenix resurrecting her "against her will" is symbolic of that journey and of the warring sides of her psyche and being.

Anything contrary to that is your headcanon.

No, the above interpretation, which is contrary to yours, is rooted in Jean's actual history as Phoenix and not in frustration-fueled assumptions and imaginings. You're the one that feels compulsively compelled to add meanings to and presume the writers' and artists' intentions behind Jean's stories and characterizations, both involving Phoenix and not.

The panels of the hunched Red Phoenix and White Phoenix in comparison to the other versions of her are there on the page, but subtle enough. I looked for a while and couldn't find where the writer talks about these panels, so we'll just say for funsies that I totally made that up.

But you did make up the intentions behind her being "hunched" in those panels. lmao.

End of the day, is the Phoenix Resurrection mini about honoring Jean Phoenix or trying to take away from it? The story is pretty clear in its opinion of that aspect of Jean's stories.

To me—notice how I actually make it a point to qualify my interpretation—Phoenix Resurrection is about honoring and highlighting her power and dominance over Phoenix, which is in line with her being one with it, whether she accepts that fact or not. And again, this interpretation does not diverge from but is in line with her history as Phoenix.

As for a battle between the aspects of Jean's personality, I could see that as potentially more palatable than what we got, which was essentially just "grrrr Phoenix bad, go back to 60s."

No, that's your limited interpretation, one that is more of a disservice to Jean than the intentions you claim writers, such as Rosenberg, to have or have had for her.

I don't forget that he didn't want Jean Grey leading a team either.

When did Rosenberg say this? Do you have an actual source? Also, he wanted to focus on the pathos underlying Jean's return, which I wish he would've gotten a chance to do.

Anyway, ultimately, I admire your passion, Kitty, you little rascal, and I genuinely find you endearing, even though you know how to work my last nerve.

Heh! Oddly enough Jean hadn't noticed that her costume had changed until she looked at it and had no idea what it meant or why being dead and all...

Considering she had just ascended to that state, her naivete makes perfect sense to me.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

The point of Phoenix Resurrection *is* to shit on the Phoenix. According to the writer, who has bad taste, the Phoenix is just this toxic relationship with a firebird that forces Jean to do things. You can look up any Rosenberg interview to hear his words on that AND his thoughts on Jean leading a team coming out of his story. His "pathos" was going to be Jean moping around being suicidal until Hickman came aboard. Haaaaaard pass.

Also, when you refer to "themes" you are referring to interpretations. The cold fact of the story is that it completely disregards the White Phoenix of the Crown business (besides a panel where she is meant to look sad for being Phoenix) in favor of the less interesting canon that she just got planetary scale stroked to death at the end of the Morrison run and that was it. How did "White Phoenix of the Crown" suddenly become the Phoenix trapping Jean in a diner? Because the writer said so and her status as White Phoenix of the Crown or gathering her pieces or whatever doesn't matter to the story he wanted to tell. Easier to just change her status to dead. So that's what he did!

Hopefully, the next Jean Phoenix story is 3 times as dismissive of his lame work in turn.


Mind you, stuff like AvX also said Jean is just dead too, but Phoenix Resurrection felt a lot more like an attack on Jean's stories. The AvX creators just didn't care. Rosenberg was very actively like "Phoenix Jean sucks." It was way more aggressive than AvX. I just sense John Byrne-ism in it, to be honest.

[Mercury]

You go on believing your story, which includes ignoring swathes of Jean's history, and I'll go on believing the truth, which encompasses it all.

[Wiccan]

I'd like to point out that Hopeless' Jeen solo tried to tie-in the whole "Phoenix shards needed for Jean to be resurrected" thing with Phoenix Resurrection by establishing that the final shard that the Phoenix needed to resurrect her was stuck in Emma's mind.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

You go on believing your story, which includes ignoring swathes of Jean's history, and I'll go on believing the truth, which encompasses it all.

The truth is only what the latest comics say. daed ffo retteb

I'd like to point out that Hopeless' Jeen solo tried to tie-in the whole "Phoenix shards needed for Jean to be resurrected" thing with Phoenix Resurrection by establishing that the final shard that the Phoenix needed to resurrect her was stuck in Emma's mind.

That series has such a good climax. Jean seeing into the minds of the former, wrong hosts, with them all coming together to help her, was dope.

I still remember being a bit shocked when Quentin Quire shoots Jean. The re-read of Jean Grey vol 1 on the release day of the first issue of JG vol 2 is going to be a good time.

Just gotta make it through the bratty voice in those first few issues again lol

[Micabe]

You literally accused Joe Bennett of drawing Jean in her White Phoenix regalia "to shit on it." Clearly, neutrality and objectivity aren't your strong points in this debate.

And the same happened in Phoenix Endsong. Moreover, since Jean first manifested Phoenix in 1976, she has grappled with her identity and feelings of dissociation and displacement, continuously questioning whether she is actually Jean, Phoenix, or both. It's a recurring theme in her push-and-pull journey toward apotheosis. Phoenix resurrecting her "against her will" is symbolic of that journey and of the warring sides of her psyche and being.

No, the above interpretation, which is contrary to yours, is rooted in Jean's actual history as Phoenix and not in frustration-fueled assumptions and imaginings. You're the one that feels compulsively compelled to add meanings to and presume the writers' and artists' intentions behind Jean's stories and characterizations, both involving Phoenix and not.

But you did make up the intentions behind her being "hunched" in those panels. lmao.

To me—notice how I actually make it a point to qualify my interpretation—Phoenix Resurrection is about honoring and highlighting her power and dominance over Phoenix, which is in line with her being one with it, whether she accepts that fact or not. And again, this interpretation does not diverge from but is in line with her history as Phoenix.

No, that's your limited interpretation, one that is more of a disservice to Jean than the intentions you claim writers, such as Rosenberg, to have or have had for her.

When did Rosenberg say this? Do you have an actual source? Also, he wanted to focus on the pathos underlying Jean's return, which I wish he would've gotten a chance to do.

Anyway, ultimately, I admire your passion, Kitty, you little rascal, and I genuinely find you endearing, even though you know how to work my last nerve.

Considering she had just ascended to that state, her naivete makes perfect sense to me.

This all begs the question as to why Jean hasn't demonstrated any godlike ascension like Ororo has. Oh, wait...

I almost forgot what the Progenitor told Jean during the Judgement Day arc or that Ororo (canonically) hasn't actually defied all laws of known physics by trans-positioning an entire solar system as of yet. Sorry about the confusion

[Mercury]

The big question: Is Hickman going to revolutionize and include Phoenix in his pantheon, especially since his G.O.D.S. will intersect with mutants at the #XMenHellfireGala?

https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...18480737787904





Keep in mind, whatever happens to Jean at the #XMenHellfireGala will thrust her into a journey of self-exploration and self-discovery and cause her to realize that she “holds the key to rescue mutantkind”...

https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...20389880053797

[Mercury]

Jean at the #XMenHellfireGala, goaded by Hickman and surrounded by The Five. #XSpoilers

https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...26331052998657

🤣🥹