Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2023: “A Red Dragon”

[Grinning Soul]

I appreciate you trying to defuse a potentially contentious discussion between Kitty and I, GS. As always, and as I have told you before, I appreciate your insights and wish you would post more.

But I can handle Kitty...

��

You can handle each other. I was not worried about that. :)

As for my posting more... I don't have many positive things to say, so it would just get people upset for no reason. Besides... I'm busy writing my own (original) stuff and I'm really unenthusiastic about comics in general... Put those two together and I just don't feel like spending too much time and energy here.

[Mercury]

Right, those tentpole spectacular moments for the characters are prime vidya material.

But besides that, the creators in the video game and film/tv spaces may not necessarily be as set in the ways conservative and limiting in regards to Jean as far as story content and characterization.

I am leary of the coming cartoon as far as Jean just because of the source it's drawing on, but we'll see about that particular media element when it is revealed.

I swear, you are a real pip. 🥹 I know, based on historical precedent, it doesn't seem like I would hold such an opinion of you, but I really do. I know that you're coming from a place of care and love for Jean. I only go back and forth with you because 1) I love her too, and 2) I wish you'd try to change your perspective, even if only temporarily, so that you could have more fun with the current stories! The beauty of comic books and the characters in them is that they are so rich and iridescent, it allows one to turn and interpret them in myriad different ways without causing oneself undue frustration and to resort to deriding the creators simply because they aren't telling stories or handling characters in the way one prefers. Just food for thought.

You can handle each other. I was not worried about that.

Haha! True.

As for my posting more... I don't have many positive things to say, so it would just get people upset for no reason. Besides... I'm busy writing my own (original) stuff and I'm really unenthusiastic about comics in general... Put those two together and I just don't feel like spending too much time and energy here.

This is totally understandable, though it saddens me a little nonetheless. Still, I'm happy you're writing (!) and still checking in on us. ::hug::

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I swear, you are a real pip. �� I know, based on historical precedent, it doesn't seem like I would hold such an opinion of you, but I really do. I know that you're coming from a place of care and love for Jean. I only go back and forth with you because 1) I love her too, and 2) I wish you'd try to change your perspective, even if only temporarily, so that you could have more fun with the current stories! The beauty of comic books and the characters in them is that they are so rich and iridescent, it allows one to to turn and interpret them in myriad different ways without causing yourself undue frustration and deriding the creators simply because they aren't telling stories or handling characters in the way we prefer. Just food for thought.

I get where you are coming from. Just from a Jean-centric perspective, I don't think the current Jean stuff is that cool/memorable/dynamic/awesome/whatever and so I give it the lambasting I think is owed until we get a point where I have to say, "OK, not even I can make fun of this." I'll probably give them less bite when they can stop half-stepping on Phoenix and give her a story that puts her through the ringer and challenges and let's her strength show unabashedly with no lame caveats and isn't ultimately about Scemma or Maddie. The most shining Jean writer to a point ended up having her run from conflict as the story resolution (where she is concerned, anyway.) That is infuriating. Gillen kinda touched on Phoenix but not emphatically. WEAK. WEAK TEA. The editor? Hating on her cool new power because it's not what she had when he was 5 years old or whatever. W-E-A-K. This era is mayo and I asked for Ghost Pepper Hot Sauce. So, when they do stuff like having Jean in literal hair-pulling catfights, I will point out that there are X-Men playing Gods and Kings and actually doing things, just for kicks lol.

This time for Jean isn't wholly unentertaining; it's just mainly lampoonable.

About deriding creators: I am more deriding archaic mindsets (to me) and flat (to me) moments. If Claremont himself came back and wrote a milquetoast Jean, I'd call it milquetoast just the same.

[Mercury]

I get where you are coming from. Just from a Jean-centric perspective, I don't think the current Jean stuff is that cool/memorable/dynamic/awesome/whatever and so I give it the lambasting I think is owed until we get a point where I have to say, "OK, not even I can make fun of this." I'll probably give them less bite when they can stop half-stepping on Phoenix and give her a story that puts her through the ringer and challenges and let's her strength show unabashedly with no lame caveats and isn't ultimately about Scemma or Maddie.

AHA! At the end of the day, this is all about Phoenix for you, isn't it!? Grrr! You can't think like that! I mean, you can, but you'll only cause yourself undo frustration and disappointment. Again, as in Claremont's day, we're dealing with creators who can't envision Jean being "responsible for all creation" without it apparently undermining other characters and the concept of the X-Men as a whole. I don't agree with but do get that. What keeps me from getting frustrated, however, is the fact that the idea of Jean repressing herself due to trauma and guilt rings utterly true to me. (As I admitted earlier, I've dealt with my fair share of trauma, guilt, and repeated regressions.) And I love when characters are imbued with a good dose of pathos. Her story is as ripe with potential and possibilities as ever, and I'm happy about that. After all, comic books are mostly about potential, possibilities, and the long game.

The most shining Jean writer to a point ended up having her run from conflict as the story resolution (where she is concerned, anyway.) That is infuriating. Gillen kinda touched on Phoenix but not emphatically. WEAK. WEAK TEA. The editor? Hating on her cool new power because it's not what she had when he was 5 years old or whatever. W-E-A-K. This era is mayo and I asked for Ghost Pepper Hot Sauce. So, when they do stuff like having Jean in literal hair-pulling catfights, I will point out that there are X-Men playing Gods and Kings and actually doing things, just for kicks lol.

When did "the most shining Jean writer" have her "run from conflict"? And again, Gillen did more than just touch on Phoenix. He confirmed this is who Jean is "now and forever" and immediately followed that up by depicting her manifesting fire, to which Tony responded, "I thought she wasn't the Phoenix anymore." Of course, some consider all of this subtle—to a degree, I do too—but it was intensely implicit, if nothing else. And I love that for her, and how it puts all of her previous stories into perspective, especially because it reveals she has been suppressing, repressing, and dissociating. That is pathos, and it richly informs her character.

As for White's decision to have her hold back her psionic absorption ability, I only care that he didn't choose to retcon or dismiss it as if it didn't count or never happened. He acknowledged she still has this ability, which tells me he was interested enough in it to keep it—something he and other editors have not been or done with far more impactful aspects of myriad characters. Moreover, if we consider what I've said above, from an in-story perspective, one can deduce that she hasn't used this aspect of her power set because, again, she's holding herself back. Frankly, I like this facet of her overall story and character, i.e., the fact that she's always holding back, because it keeps her a mystery. We only know that she is Phoenix "now and forever." We don't know when or how that will manifest itself. We don't know all of what she is capable of. Hell, Rachel is pulling from Phoenix as we speak. All is a mystery, and honestly, I think that makes for better stories.

This time for Jean isn't wholly unentertaining; it's just mainly lampoonable.

About deriding creators: I am more deriding archaic mindsets (to me) and flat (to me) moments. If Claremont himself came back and wrote a milquetoast Jean, I'd call it milquetoast just the same.

It is not "lampoonable"! That's just you and your contrarian and devilish brain! 😂 Seriously, though, shift your perspective. To paraphrase Bruce Lee, become like water. "Be formless, shapeless, like water." Let not pride nor cynicism permanently furrow your brow nor sully your countenance nor comportment. You'll enjoy yourself more! :hug:

Back to Sins of Sinister, I just remembered what Gillen said during one of his last interviews with AIPT:



https://aiptcomics.com/2022/11/14/x-...-gillen-a-x-e/

I wonder...🤔

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

It's not all about Phoenix. It's about what the Phoenix represents and that's what they are running away from. Too powerful for a girl, especially not the main character's love interest.

That said, yes it is about her designs too. Stupid-*** skirt on a black-ops team. WEAK. lmao

Percy had her run from conflict quite literally. He was doing pretty good before that...the whole book was lol

It is fun to poke fun at how the character is. Otherwise, there is little else to get from the basic, flat efforts.

[Mercury]

It's not all about Phoenix. It's about what the Phoenix represents and that's what they are running away from. Too powerful for a girl, especially not the main character's love interest.

But this has nothing to do with Jean per se nor their interest or lack thereof in her, so stop making fun of her! Ororo is also a character who they won't let ascend to her previously established heights for the same reasons I outlined above. This is not a personal attack on or affront to Jean, but you're constantly making it seem as if it is. It's toxic both to yourself and other fans.

That said, yes it is about her designs too. Stupid-*** skirt on a black-ops team. WEAK. lmao

I already explained why she could have regressed in codename and attire, which Duggan pretty much underscored. Nevertheless, she dropped that gig going on a year ago. Let it go.

Percy had her run from conflict quite literally. He was doing pretty good before that...the whole book was lol

And I can make in-story sense as to why she would do that. Aside from her own suppression and dissociation, she loves and wants to trust Hank and, for that matter, Xavier, his dream, and what Krakoa represents. She turned the other way because she was both exhausted from the preceding events, i.e., those that followed her return in Phoenix Resurrection, and she wanted to give the Krakoan nation a true shot. More than anything else, she acted like a politician when she chose to "ojos que no ven, corazón que no siente" the F out of X-Force. I get that. Granted, I have a more sympathetic view of Jean and always strive to weave her history into and allow it to inform her behavior in whatever current story I'm reading.

It is fun to poke fun at how the character is. Otherwise, there is little else to get from the basic, flat efforts.

For more sensitive fans—I am not one of them—it can be a real downer and push them away. A few have told me so. And the fact that you constitute Jean's developments within the last 1-2 years as "basic, flat efforts" is your opinion, and one that you're entitled to share. Just don't be taken aback when you get a response. To be fair, however, you're always game for a sparring session without making it personal, which I really appreciate.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

We are talking about lame characterization and examples of it. That the most testy or heavy story Jean has been involved in ended with her just running away from the conflict is a big deal and indicative of the quality of the last few years of stuff related to Jean. Not everyone is going to ignore that. Hold on to it.

Honestly, if "basic" and "flat" are too harsh words, then, well, they aren't, frankly. They can simply pretend the post said whatever words they think it should have said instead.

As far as making in-story sense of things that happen, that's not really your job to reason stuff out or create an absent narrative, and that's not the point really. Really, changes don't even need an explanation because ultimately writers want what they want. I can understand the in-story notion that this era's version of Jean was just soooo overwhelmed by the thought of X-Force that she just couldn't bear to fight through sorting it out. That doesn't mean I personally find that a positive take on the character. It comes off badly. Then couple that with the reality that there wasn't any real thought behind it, nothing gained character-wise from her running away, and it just feels flat.

Of course, Marvel is under no obligation to make this section in X-history for any character in particular, but in speaking from a Jean-centric perspective there are things, nay, qualities left to be desired.


Oh and about Storm: she's anything but nerfed in personality or power these days. Ewing has her looking steady.

[Mercury]

We are talking about lame characterization and examples of it. That the most testy or heavy story Jean has been involved in ended with her just running away from the conflict is a big deal and indicative of the quality of the last few years of stuff related to Jean. Not everyone is going to ignore that. Hold on to it.

First, let's make something clear, Jean wasn't aware of the full extent of Hank's perpetrations on Terre Verde—hell, I don't even think he was aware of how far he'd go. And what she was aware of—i.e., what he did to the president's son—she called him out on and banged him up for. Sure, she didn't put it past him to go further, but she also had the wherewithal to know that maybe initiating a full-scale investigation on him based on one incident and hunches, especially considering the flavor of the players in the QC, wasn't the best or even most progressive approach. She gritted her teeth and turned away, partly because she still held a shred of trust in Hank, partly because she didn't want to accept that things could get so ugly in Shambhala. In either case, I already outlined how her actual history and the stories that immediately preceded this period could have informed her behavior and subsequent decisions, especially during the early years of Krakoa.

Or are we supposed to view every issue and story arc in a vacuum?

Honestly, if "basic" and "flat" are too harsh words, then, well, they aren't, frankly. They can simply pretend the post said whatever words they think it should have said instead.

Oh, I can take it, and you know I can, but your utter irreverence tickles me. Truly it does! (I swear, I would just ignore you as I have before if it didn't.) lmao! :::sincere hug:::

As far as making in-story sense of things that happen, that's not really your job to reason stuff out or create an absent narrative, and that's not the point really.

Oh, but it is our job as fans to do this, certainly more so than assuming what the writers are thinking and projecting biases onto them that are based on nothing more than assumptions and, essentially, gripes and moans. And even if you can convince me that it isn't, I like "making in-story sense of things that happen." Frankly, it's logical, fruitful, and overall enjoyable to me. It makes these characters real to me and as fallible and unpredictable as any other human being.

Really, changes don't even need an explanation because ultimately writers want what they want. I can understand the in-story notion that this era's version of Jean was just soooo overwhelmed by the thought of X-Force that she just couldn't bear to fight through sorting it out. That doesn't mean I personally find that a positive take on the character. It comes off badly. Then couple that with the reality that there wasn't any real thought behind it, nothing gained character-wise from her running away, and it just feels flat.

You've minced, picked apart, and cunningly chosen from what I said, so I'll repost it again:

I think after Jean signed up to join Krakoa, she was still reeling from the events following her return in Phoenix Resurrection. She had her resurrection and time-displacement and all that she had learned during both to contend with, including learning about Scott's actions and death and that her entire family had been murdered due to her destruction of D'Bari as Dark Phoenix. Plus, Xavier's betrayal (see Astonishing X-Men Annual #1) and her wars with Cassandra Nova and Nate Grey must have left her burnt out and disillusioned. I think caused her to both regress in terms of her comportment and how she identified herself but also to indulge in her love for and attraction to Logan. In one way, it's as if she was trying to escape the reality of what she had been through leading up to Krakoa and perhaps pushing away what her instincts had and have been telling her about Krakoa and perhaps Xavier. In another way, however, she was breaking free from the restrictions of her marriage and doing what she wanted for a change. Clearly, to me at least, she exhibited the confusion and contradictory behavior of someone in the throes of grappling with denial and dissociation while processing trauma. The beginning of the Krakoan era is a fascinating period in Jean's life that is punctuated more by the silences than by what's being said.

I suppose all of that should just be shrugged off and replaced with a spiffy new uniform and a snarky, pithy attitude. Um...

Next!

Of course, Marvel is under no obligation to make this section in X-history for any character in particular, but in speaking from a Jean-centric perspective there are things, nay, qualities left to be desired.

I genuinely don't understand the first part of this statement (typo?), but I understand you feeling there are "qualities left to be desired." I, too, can choose to focus on what I would do with Jean, which is not what we're getting, but I'd rather remain optimistic, enjoy what we are getting, revel in the surprises, and remain assured that despite what has come and will come, Jean will continue to shift, change, and amaze me.

Oh and about Storm: she's anything but nerfed in personality or power these days. Ewing has her looking steady.

Tell that to some of her fans, although I agree. In either case, I feel the same about Gillen and Duggan—and the little bit of work Mackay did—with Jean. I'm truly sorry you don't feel the same way. Although, I should remind you, not long ago you were pining for Jean to be (1) given a new uniform, (2) shown using her abilities effectively, (3) portrayed in a spotlight or leadership role, and (4) treated with respect regarding her Phoenix mythos—all of which has come to pass. But keep moving those goal posts. It serves you well, I suppose.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Jean didn't like something happening in X-Force and didn't stick it out. Literally said to get Colossus to deal with it instead and left. WEAK.

It is NOT our jobs to fill in the story. None of the stuff about Jean questioning herself early in the run and that being the reason for the dress etc was actually written. Not our jobs to write it.

That was supposed to be something along the lines of "Marvel isn't obligated to make this era about Jean or any particular character but"

As far as her costume and knowing how to use her powers and restoring her history as Phoenix, I'll remind you that these are all things this era has taken away from her. Well, less so on Phoenix - that was editorial and Matthew WhatsHisFace. Slow clap for them for undoing some of their own negative work. (And they are still dancing around Phoenix. Still leaving the question of 'her or not'. Let us not forget!)
Now, let's pack it up, Jean has done all she needs to do as a character, no more significant narrative needed!

Storm: Saving a planet from a somehow even more annoying Summers and fighting physical and mental political battles for the soul of her two populations

Jean: Catfighting boyfriend's ex love interests again! After running away because she's too delicate for serious stories.

I'll say, positively as I can be, that I am glad the Maddie thing is done. Hopefully Inferno 3: The Conversation will be influential enough to prevent a reversion and repeating of this catfight! (Now it must be Emma's turn again?! Or Betsy???)

[Lukmendes]

I think the reason fans don't get his Jean is fundamentally the same: Duggan might check the marks, but he doesn't do it in a satisfactory way for them.

How will this present for each fan will vary, but based on what I've observed, that is the essence.

Some fans might think she has some cool feats, but nothing that will be memorable because it's not connected to resolution of the story, for instance. The closest to it was Gameworld? I'm not much into feats but I have to agree the execution was kinda flat and I don't think we can blame the art, so...

For me, in particular, it is because he shies away from her emotional depth. She has - tops - one or two lines about show she sees a certain situation that should impact her deeply.

Kid Cable leaving? Mutant kids grow fast.
Scott being forced to play the Captain Krakoa role? No idea how she felt.
Madelyne stuff? Slap. Punch. Punch. I pushed for your ressurection, now shut up and let me share my memories.

It was also pointed out a few times in the previous thread that Jean has absolutely no reaction about the whole Moira thing back at the Gala, even though it looks weird considering there was this whole "we trust you Emma".

I get the feeling Duggan only makes characters react to specific things he wants them to react at the moment of the plot, instead of making the story around how more people should react, so we get silly stuff like Hope seeing Moira at Gala and deciding to let her go, even though by that point she should know Moira is too dangerous to leave that casually, so the way characters get used can feel flat.

Now, being fair, he was not the only writer who treated Jean this way in this Krakoa era either. Both Hickman and Percy did the same -- we still don't know how she felt about the Crucible, for instance. Also, still trying to be fair, Duggan treats most characters like this. The difference is that some characters don't suffer as much as Jean because they don't have her emotional depth.

She got no reactions to Crucible? What the hell lol.

Then again, given the weird cult vibes early Krakoa had, she probably wouldn't care...

To your points, I totally understand what you mean. To take a momentary break from my usually optimistic outlook and attitude regarding all things Jean, there is one aspect of Duggan's writing that I take issue with: He doesn't write enough. To be fair, though, I find that's the case with most current comic book writers. For whatever reason, writers have either been instructed to say less or simply have less to say about characters, their thoughts and feelings, and drives and fears. This is largely due to the fact that present day comic book writers rarely use captions or thought bubbles. For the most part, issues mostly comprise dialogue, and although a lot can be conveyed through dialogue, I'm left wanting. Of course, it doesn't help that I'm often either consciously or unconsciously comparing current X-Men issues to issues from Claremont's golden age—I mean, there's just no comparison—but I digress.

It doesn't help that comics nowadays are written for trade.

Before you read one issue, the story was likely going to be over by the issue's end, and a lot of things were gonna happen in that one issue.

Nowadays comics are much slower when they really have no reason to be, so we get a pointless decompression.

Not that I'm saying decompression itself is bad, it's just a way to write, but there's a time and place for it, and that's the same for compression, since plenty of old comics have too much going on in one issue to the point of annoyance, but point is, a writer should know when a story should get slower pacing or not.

So, because comics can get so decompressed, we have ironically less going on, and this can lead to doing less cool or interesting things with the characters available right now, though these aren't the only reasons of course, lots of reasons why a character doesn't do much in a story.

Not to walk over the artistic creativity, but, wouldn't the Force already be higher than the IF in terms of power? Or is my cosmic hierarchy off?

Well, back in Dark Phoenix itself Uatu claimed she was the second strongest being in the universe (Below only the creator), so by that line it would be, but Infinity Gems' feats on Infinity Gauntlet were basically "Defeat all cosmic beings besides Living Tribunal and TOAA", so at least the Gems have an absurd feat to back it up.

But cosmic hierarchy is a mess, there was this one time Beyonder was stronger than everything ever... Living Tribunal is supposedly super strong, but he's essentially like DC's Spectre in the sense he's powerful enough to get jobbed.

What If...Dark Phoenix had possessed the Infinity Gauntlet?
If this was 2020s it would be by Jason Aaron, 4sho.

Please don't give him excuses to come up with more nonsense...

LOL. And it would tie into Avengers with an appearance by the Council of Red.

Don't forget Odin showing up to be drunk and horny for Phoenix.

Everyone is the Phoenix since at least Endsong.

"Mommy says it's my turn to have the Phoenix Force".

It's ironic that Phoenix might have more users than Captain Universe/Uni Power, and if so that's annoyingly ironic, 'cause Uni Power is supposed to be the thing that is the town's bycicle.

Even if it's not as much, man, so many got it... I have a friend who was interested in the Phoenix as a concept, but got annoyed once I pointed out that so many people used it lol.

That first Spidey kiss is so cringe in retrospect and hasnt aged well. its back then when sexual assault of female characters was rampant and romanticized. Xavier's jealous face is the icing on that cake

Another weird thing about the kiss is that Spidey was dating Gwen at the time, so not only that's sexual assault nowadays, he was also cheating, just because lol.

Can't even say the writer wasn't aware, since the comic was written by Conway, who was also writing ASM.

Yeah, that definitely wouldn't fly today. However, I think I feel more strongly about what Wyngarde did to Jean during the Dark Phoenix Saga.

That's like comparing a punch to being stabbed by a flaming chainsaw lol.

And of course, you cap this post with essentially expressing that you want to see her destroy and make things go bang. lmao. I can't.

To be fair, in a video game, if it's an action one, you break things, and sometimes people lol.

So yeah, in an action RPG, it's pretty fair to expect the environment to be broken, and whenever Jean is playable in one (Like X-Men Legends and Ultimate Alliance), she'll be using her powers to break stuff lol.

If you want to see Jean in action in a game, I recommend X-Men Legends, an oldie but a good one. Fair warning, she is a very capable character in that game. There's no fainting, or "I can't do it" type of stuff, so just a heads up.

I hear she's top 2 in that game, with the only reason she's not the absolute strongest is that Sentinels exist.

They're robots so they're naturally resistant to telepathic moves, and apparently all of her moves do telepathic damage for some reason, and if so she gets counter picked hard...

They are two very different media. An action-RPG usually is really about action and, especially if it would be an X-Men game, it probably would be about the whole team, not a specific character (= not much character growth expected). So the potential for Jean in this medium would be to maximize the cool factor of her power. Being able to destroy environment with her TK would indeed be really cool.

It depends on the focus of the story, but if it's something like X-Men Legends or whatever, most characters will be just heroes who get to info dump their stories here and there, and having some exclusive conversations with the villains here and there.

So while Jean wouldn't have much room to develop unless she's explicitly one of the main characters, that's about the same for everyone else, in cases like this you just expect them to get the basics of the characters and have cool lines, and hopefully are strong and/or fun to play as.

The potential for Jean in the comics is very different. Basically they can do whatever they want with her powers (no need to programme it, balance it, etc... like you need in a game) and on top of that, there's the whole part of the narrative and character development.

Honestly, single player games don't need to worry that much about balance.

Jean is among the stronger characters in games a decent enough amount of times, and there's hardly any complaints when it's a single player game, it's only in competitive games where you have to be more careful about balance, she was overpowered to the point she was detested in Marvel vs Capcom 3 (She got nerfed in Ultimate, and while players like Justin Wong claim she's top 3, very few players actually learn Jean, a lot of times, instead of picking Jean who has the benefits of Dark Phoenix, they pick Jean while only really caring about using Dark Phoenix).

The expectation for each medium is different.

Yeah video games are way more interactive in nature, and while that could give a lot of characters focus, that takes time, and money, lots of both lol.

And hell, even if time and money are available, even something that is text heavy like RPGs can completely fail at making characters interesting... So not only is time and money needed, you obviously need good writers who can make decent use of a good chunk of the cast.

[Mercury]

Jean didn't like something happening in X-Force and didn't stick it out. Literally said to get Colossus to deal with it instead and left. WEAK.

Again, you're reading her in a vacuum.

It is NOT our jobs to fill in the story. None of the stuff about Jean questioning herself early in the run and that being the reason for the dress etc was actually written. Not our jobs to write it.

We are certainly expected to pay attention to continuity and characters' histories, especially to inform ongoing arcs and developments. And in X-Men #4, Duggan did show that Jean was insecure and questioning herself.

That was supposed to be something along the lines of "Marvel isn't obligated to make this era about Jean or any particular character but"

It is not our job nor even really possible for us to assume the intent behind Marvel's decisions.

As far as her costume and knowing how to use her powers and restoring her history as Phoenix, I'll remind you that these are all things this era has taken away from her. Slow clap for them for undoing some of their own negative work. Now, let's pack it up, Jean has done all she needs to do as a character, no more significant narrative needed! (And they are still dancing around Phoenix. Still leaving the question of 'her or not'. Let us not forget!)

I'll give you her uniform and the use of her abilities, though I'm sticking with my in-story reasonings behind both, but when did "this era" take away her history as Phoenix?

Storm: Saving a planet from a somehow even more annoying Summers and fighting physical and mental political battles for the soul of her two populations

And yet, you still have some fans bemoaning the fact that she "needed help" to both summon rain and avert telepathic attacks. One person's gold is another's $#!+, which was my point.

Jean: Catfighting boyfriend's ex love interests again! After running away because she's too delicate for serious stories.

She fought back against and helped her clone, who was given life using a fragment of her psyche or essence. I'm sorry you could care less that they were finally allowed to come to terms and make amends after a handful of pivotal moments of Jean trying to reach out to and help Madelyne and years of not them not being allowed to heal. Also, Madelyne is a lot more than Jean's "boyfriend's ex love interest." And they both deserved the closure they received via this story. Plus, I loved seeing Jean got gritty, throw down, cut through magic for a second and third time in less than a year, and display her hallmark empathy and compassion unabashedly.

I'll say, positively as I can be, that I am glad the Maddie thing is done. Hopefully Inferno 3: The Conversation will be influential enough to prevent a reversion and repeating of this catfight! (Now it must be Emma's turn again?! Or Betsy???)

You are something else, lol.

It was also pointed out a few times in the previous thread that Jean has absolutely no reaction about the whole Moira thing back at the Gala, even though it looks weird considering there was this whole "we trust you Emma".

If, in fact, Jean knows about Moira (and Xavier), she learned it with and through her work with Logan and Xavier in X Lives of Wolverine, which is something Logan alludes to in the Gala issue. And if that's the case, Jean would have processed that with Lo and X, which would bring up some interesting dynamics. Scott kept what Emma told him about what she learned during Hickman's Inferno from Jean because he didn't want to hurt her. I suppose Jean did the same.

And, again, I missed you, ya rascal!

[CaptainUniverse]

Don't forget Odin showing up to be drunk and horny for Phoenix.

"Mommy says it's my turn to have the Phoenix Force".

It's ironic that Phoenix might have more users than Captain Universe/Uni Power, and if so that's annoyingly ironic, 'cause Uni Power is supposed to be the thing that is the town's bycicle.

Even if it's not as much, man, so many got it... I have a friend who was interested in the Phoenix as a concept, but got annoyed once I pointed out that so many people used it lol.

LOL about Odin.

There are probably an equal number of Captain Universes and Phoenixes, its just that the Phoenix has appeared in more comics than Captain Universe. I remember there was an issue of Web of Spider-Man Annual where Peter was kidnapped by The Psycho Man and he had an entire army of former Captain Universes in captivity from all across the universe. Of course, there will always be one true Captain Universe (Prince Wayfinder) and one true Phoenix (Jean Grey).

[Lukmendes]

I'll say, positively as I can be, that I am glad the Maddie thing is done. Hopefully Inferno 3: The Conversation will be influential enough to prevent a reversion and repeating of this catfight! (Now it must be Emma's turn again?! Or Betsy???)

Isn't Betsy doing nothing for the last years?

If, in fact, Jean knows about Moira (and Xavier), she learned it with and through her work with Logan and Xavier in X Lives of Wolverine, which is something Logan alludes to in the Gala issue. And if that's the case, Jean would have processed that with Lo and X, which would bring up some interesting dynamics. Scott kept what Emma told him about what she learned during Hickman's Inferno from Jean because he didn't want to hurt her. I suppose Jean did the same.

It'd be weird if they knew but didn't tell the other to not hurt each other, while it is a horrible thing for a previous ally like Moira to become a cartoonish mutant racist, this is still something they have to know, specially considering they clearly have each other's back, and Moira is really dangerous considering she knows so much about Krakoa, and logically would know of its weakness more than any other villain, and potentially even know of weaknesses that no one else does.

Even if Jean knew and didn't tell Cyke, it still sucks we never saw her reacting to it, or an allusion about how she reacted.

The idea of her having this dynamic with Xavier and Wolverine you mentioned sounds cool, but it's just potential, and potential can be great, but in a way it has to be used, otherwise it's just fans thinking "It'd be cool if this happened".

And, again, I missed you, ya rascal!

Lol, thanks.

LOL about Odin.

There are probably an equal number of Captain Universes and Phoenixes, its just that the Phoenix has appeared in more comics than Captain Universe.

Yeah that's why I say she might have more, 'cause she shows up so much more and all lol.

there was an issue of Web of Spider-Man Annual where Peter was kidnapped by The Psycho Man and he had an entire army of former Captain Universes in captivity from all across the universe.

At first I read this without "former" and I was like "What the fuck? How does one kidnap an entire army of Captain Universes?".

Wasn't aware of this issue though, guess the whole Captain Universe thing has slightly more influence than I expected lol.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Oh Betsy, is doing stuff. I just don't like any of it lmao

It is always our job to question and postulate about a megacorp's decisions, Marvel and otherwise, and a lot of times those decisions are wrapped in some boy's club BS.

[CaptainUniverse]

Yeah that's why I say she might have more, 'cause she shows up so much more and all lol.

At first I read this without "former" and I was like "What the fuck? How does one kidnap an entire army of Captain Universes?".

Wasn't aware of this issue though, guess the whole Captain Universe thing has slightly more influence than I expected lol.

Ooops...lol.

Yeah, it was pretty interesting, Psycho Man was hunting the Uni-Power down in order to turn himself into Captain Universe so he could kill The Fantastic Four and Peter just so happened to be the most recent Captain Universe. Peter won the day, of course and got back home to MJ just fine and dandy. Although I do think MJ made a crack about his suit being a little looser, making him worry that he had shrunk, if ya catch my drift.