The Punisher Appreciation 2023

[9th.]

When they wave around the banner of a man who represents everything they should be against?

Yup.

Castle is an unrestrained mass murderer because of a personal grievance.

Law enforcement shouldn't be waving his banner around. Period.

And for all the talk of pearl clutch, I can't help but notice that every single time I talk about exploring the logical flaws of Frank's character, even without him killing an innocent person, the reaction is that it would utterly destroy his character and make him radioactive.

[KurtW95]

Writers using characters to validate their opinions (particularly in manners that aren't in character) is cringey. You may point to that to prove that Frank agrees with you. But that's just Matthew Rosenberg.

[Agent Z]

Writers using characters to validate their opinions (particularly in manners that aren't in character) is cringey. You may point to that to prove that Frank agrees with you. But that's just Matthew Rosenberg.

He's only saying what other writers have said about Frank. Including Frank's own creator.

[KurtW95]

He's only saying what other writers have said about Frank. Including Frank's own creator.

Conway may have conceived the idea in adapting The Executioner, but Romita made his design iconic, Lee gave him his name, and future writers fleshed him out and made him who he is. Similar to how Conway created Jason Todd (as pretty much a Dick Grayson clone), but Max Allan Collins made him who he is.

[Midnight_v]

Seriously dude?
One's possible, one's not.

Yes. Seriously. dude.
You said

And for all the talk of pearl clutch, I can't help but notice that every single time I talk about exploring the logical flaws of Frank's character, even without him killing an innocent person, the reaction is that it would utterly destroy his character and make him radioactive.

It would be a somewhat idiotic exercise to point out the logical flaws of that character OUTSIDE the confines of when he operates "IN THE MARVEL UNIVERSE" when there are routinely and casually people wielding weapons of mass destruction. There is no logical flaw of the character compared to any other character with a title in that world. Its just bias. Not even a very respectable bias.

Also, if cops express ideas or opinions that run against their basic job of public safety and law enforcement, then they shouldn't be cops. Not complicated.

I wasn't directing that at you, however that plus...

Do you think cops should be able to express themselves at work?
Nope. They have minimum code of conducts they should adhere to. Every public servant does.

Illustrates you're okay with every cop that got fired or sanctioned for wearing BLM gear. It happened a lot more that you think, and that's the natural end of such moves. Comply or GTFO.
Similarly, I find the same thing with private industry. Only the conduct isn't to the public but to your employers making money so all the guys who kneel during the national anthem (even with the racist lines?). Well. Bye.
But... the punisher cop vs the blm cop are both to some extent expressing displease with a failed system. Though I'd argue that the punisher decal doesn't inherently run against the basic job of public safety, and the people against it so thourhgly
are people who are a part of a microcosm within very insular community who have read all those comics... but overwhelmingly haven't put themselves in the line of fire outside of a few witty tweets now then.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yes. Seriously. dude.
You said
It would be a somewhat idiotic exercise to point out the logical flaws of that character OUTSIDE the confines of when he operates "IN THE MARVEL UNIVERSE" when there are routinely and casually people wielding weapons of mass destruction. There is no logical flaw of the character compared to any other character with a title in that world. Its just bias. Not even a very respectable bias.

And nothing about that statement implies cops etc should avoid pop culture. I have no idea how you reached that conclusion.

I wasn't directing that at you, however that plus...
Illustrates you're okay with every cop that got fired or sanctioned for wearing BLM gear. It happened a lot more that you think, and that's the natural end of such moves. Comply or GTFO.

BLM and Castle are two very different concepts.

One is explicit in that lives matter regardless of character. The other is implicit in that they don't.

Kinda hard to miss that.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Conway may have conceived the idea in adapting The Executioner, but Romita made his design iconic, Lee gave him his name, and future writers fleshed him out and made him who he is. Similar to how Conway created Jason Todd (as pretty much a Dick Grayson clone), but Max Allan Collins made him who he is.

And so what? All modern writers have given Castle enough self awareness to know that what he does is wrong, and that cops certainly shouldn't follow in his example.

Do you disagree with that?

[Midnight_v]

And nothing about that statement implies cops etc should avoid pop culture. I have no idea how you reached that conclusion.




BLM and Castle are two very different concepts.

One is explicit in that lives matter regardless of character. The other is implicit in that they don't.

Kinda hard to miss that.

No. They're VAAASTLY comparable in how people feel about said groups. The idea that they don't say "Lives matter regardless of character"
make me wonder what group you're talking about but either way.... It's EXTREMELY dishonest to sit and pretend that damn near half the country consider the BLM organization
as something that would run against their basic job of public safety and law enforcement. In the end its just hypocrisy. You're going to go on and on but in the end you're argument
is just a matter of "I don't like the punisher" I'm afraid of what his fans might do. I wish people wouldn't pretend its deeper than that.

[The Cool Thatguy]

No. They're VAAASTLY comparable in how people feel about said groups. The idea that they don't say "Lives matter regardless of character"
make me wonder what group you're talking about but either way.... It's EXTREMELY dishonest to sit and pretend that damn near half the country consider the BLM organization
as something that would run against their basic job of public safety and law enforcement. In the end its just hypocrisy. You're going to go on and on but in the end you're argument
is just a matter of "I don't like the punisher" I'm afraid of what his fans might do. I wish people wouldn't pretend its deeper than that.

It's called Black Lives Matter, not Black Lives Matter and no one else's.

Grey fallacy doesn't work here

[Triniking1234]

The problem is that Castle is a mass murderer/wish fulfillment character, and history has demonstrated that pop culture can have a negative influence on people who are supposed to be professionals.

I mean, the army had to tell it's soldiers that 24 wasn't a good source on how to conduct interrogations.

Trying to figure out what books people are reading where Frank is a "mass murderer". Either that or the education system is a failure.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Trying to figure out what books people are reading where Frank is a "mass murderer". Either that or the education system is a failure.

Dude, he's killed hundreds and blew up a prison once. Explain how he's not a mass murderer?

[9th.]

Writers using characters to validate their opinions (particularly in manners that aren't in character) is cringey. You may point to that to prove that Frank agrees with you. But that's just Matthew Rosenberg.

"i've talked about this in other interviews. to me, it's disturbing whenever i see authority figures embracing punisher iconography because the punisher represents a failure of the justice system. he's supposed to indict the collapse of social moral authority and the reality some people can't depend on institutions like the police or the military to act in a just and capable way. the vigilante anti-hero is fundamentally a critique of the justice system, an example of social failure, so when cops put punisher skulls on their cars or members of the military wear punisher skull patches, they're basically sides with an enemy of the system. they are embracing an outlaw mentality. whether you think the punisher is justified or not, whether you admire his code of ethics, he is an outlaw. he is a criminal. police should not be embracing a criminal as their symbol. it goes without saying. in a way, it's as offensive as putting a confederate flag on a government building. my point of view is, the punisher is an anti-hero, someone we might root for while remembering he's also an outlaw and criminal. if an officer of the law, representing the justice system puts a criminal's symbol on his police car, or shares challenge coins honoring a criminal he or she is making a very ill-advised statement about their understanding of the law." - Gerry Conway

[Triniking1234]

Dude, he's killed hundreds and blew up a prison once. Explain how he's not a mass murderer?

I'd take that he's a serial killer who targets killers. That's been his modus operandi for ages. You're making it sound like he mows down random people on the daily.

[KurtW95]

And so what? All modern writers have given Castle enough self awareness to know that what he does is wrong, and that cops certainly shouldn't follow in his example.

All modern writers? You mean as in from the past ten years? Not a fan of those runs.

Do you disagree with that?

No one is saying cops should follow what he does. But thee's no harm in them or the armed forces liking him or decking their gear in his logo because they relate to the idea of him being a badass who punishes bad people. And there's a real debate on if what he does is wrong. Certainly, it's not legal. But if I had to choose a child rapist getting life in prison in a state with no death penalty or getting offed by Frank, I'm picking Frank.

"i've talked about this in other interviews. to me, it's disturbing whenever i see authority figures embracing punisher iconography because the punisher represents a failure of the justice system. he's supposed to indict the collapse of social moral authority and the reality some people can't depend on institutions like the police or the military to act in a just and capable way. the vigilante anti-hero is fundamentally a critique of the justice system, an example of social failure, so when cops put punisher skulls on their cars or members of the military wear punisher skull patches, they're basically sides with an enemy of the system. they are embracing an outlaw mentality. whether you think the punisher is justified or not, whether you admire his code of ethics, he is an outlaw. he is a criminal. police should not be embracing a criminal as their symbol. it goes without saying. in a way, it's as offensive as putting a confederate flag on a government building. my point of view is, the punisher is an anti-hero, someone we might root for while remembering he's also an outlaw and criminal. if an officer of the law, representing the justice system puts a criminal's symbol on his police car, or shares challenge coins honoring a criminal he or she is making a very ill-advised statement about their understanding of the law." - Gerry Conway

I'm no fan of Conway and I think he's wrong.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'd take that he's a serial killer who targets killers. That's been his modus operandi for ages. You're making it sound like he mows down random people on the daily.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_murder

He's a mass murder, on multiple occasions