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  1. #811
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inEden View Post
    When was the last time Cyclops was a major player in the X verse? I loved the Utopia era in Sans Franciso. Schism was forced and ended that era too early. Then Cyclops went rogue and wore that new red costume after Avengers vs X-Men. But he was still a big part of the X universe. I was so hyped when he got the Phoenix powers to fight Dr Doom only for him to get jobbed straight away where Doom broke his neck and killed him.

    Then we had the inhumans thing where he died and Emma did her thing. That was where I dropped off. I couldn't take it anymore. Has he done anything good since then? He doesn't have to be the star like Astonishing X-Men with Whedon but he's the recognisable leader of the X-Men!

    I rationalise it by saying Jean was gone for like 15 years I think? So maybe we need to be patient
    When Bendis was still writing them.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  2. #812
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inEden View Post
    When was the last time Cyclops was a major player in the X verse? I loved the Utopia era in Sans Franciso. Schism was forced and ended that era too early. Then Cyclops went rogue and wore that new red costume after Avengers vs X-Men. But he was still a big part of the X universe. I was so hyped when he got the Phoenix powers to fight Dr Doom only for him to get jobbed straight away where Doom broke his neck and killed him.

    Then we had the inhumans thing where he died and Emma did her thing. That was where I dropped off. I couldn't take it anymore. Has he done anything good since then? He doesn't have to be the star like Astonishing X-Men with Whedon but he's the recognisable leader of the X-Men!

    I rationalise it by saying Jean was gone for like 15 years I think? So maybe we need to be patient
    Id say right before the Krakoa era when he returned to lead the X-men after everyone was presumed dead/missing. By default the X-men was built around he and Wolverine

  3. #813
    Out Fighting for Peace! AJpyro's Avatar
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    True despite how terrible that short era was.
    Le Suck it, Dolphin!

    -God I am so tired.

    SCOTT SUMMERS AND EMMA FROST DESERVED BETTER.

  4. #814
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Id say right before the Krakoa era when he returned to lead the X-men after everyone was presumed dead/missing. By default the X-men was built around he and Wolverine
    When the metanarrative seems to be how everything he does fails, and how much everyone has decided that he sucks, I don't count that as him being a major player. Major punching bag, perhaps, but not a major player.

    Unless a character can have a positive impact on the overall plot, they aren't a major player.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  5. #815
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    When the metanarrative seems to be how everything he does fails, and how much everyone has decided that he sucks, I don't count that as him being a major player. Major punching bag, perhaps, but not a major player.

    Unless a character can have a positive impact on the overall plot, they aren't a major player.
    thats not what happened. Everything failed when he wasnt around. He returned at a time when there was no leadership, no hope, and everything had gone to hell. Mutantkind in the US was in one of its worse places when that run started and they were relatively good by the end and that wouldnt have happened had Scott decided to take action and reform the X-men with the few mutants he was able to find. They looked to his leadership and he helepd make the best out of an imposible situation. I had my issues with that run to say tht Scott wasnt a major player in it is kinda false.

  6. #816
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    thats not what happened. Everything failed when he wasnt around. He returned at a time when there was no leadership, no hope, and everything had gone to hell. Mutantkind in the US was in one of its worse places when that run started and they were relatively good by the end and that wouldnt have happened had Scott decided to take action and reform the X-men with the few mutants he was able to find. They looked to his leadership and he helepd make the best out of an imposible situation. I had my issues with that run to say tht Scott wasnt a major player in it is kinda false.
    My big memories of that are Chamber dying while telling Scott (and only Scott for some reason) "F U forever" and Hope shooting out his eye, and no one seemed to care about it. I've seen villains who come across as less entitled than Hope.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  7. #817
    Out Fighting for Peace! AJpyro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    thats not what happened. Everything failed when he wasnt around. He returned at a time when there was no leadership, no hope, and everything had gone to hell. Mutantkind in the US was in one of its worse places when that run started and they were relatively good by the end and that wouldnt have happened had Scott decided to take action and reform the X-men with the few mutants he was able to find. They looked to his leadership and he helepd make the best out of an imposible situation. I had my issues with that run to say tht Scott wasnt a major player in it is kinda false.
    Except it didn't. He didn't have time to do anything of substance and the last issue was Dani blowing up at him and the men returning of their own volition. Nothing he did was of consequence.
    Le Suck it, Dolphin!

    -God I am so tired.

    SCOTT SUMMERS AND EMMA FROST DESERVED BETTER.

  8. #818
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Rosenberg's run was designed solely as a **** you to anyone that liked Rightclops or his relationship with Emma.

  9. #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    When the metanarrative seems to be how everything he does fails, and how much everyone has decided that he sucks, I don't count that as him being a major player. Major punching bag, perhaps, but not a major player.

    Unless a character can have a positive impact on the overall plot, they aren't a major player.
    We are biased towards wanting to see pro-active characters, and Scott is mostly stuck in a reactive niche.

    Stuff has to go wrong before he's called in, which means he starts out 'in the hole' having apparently 'failed.' Too slow, too late, not good enough, and no matter what he does, something awful is going to happen next month, because, comics don't end. There will never be a forever win unless the company closes it's doors and never writes another story.

    Wolverine gets to go in before things go wrong and try to do pro-active stuff, which, because comics, *also* never results in any lasting good or peace or 'win' for mutantkind, but because Wolverine is seen taking the 'active' role, the aggressive role, the manly role, he somehow escapes the blame for all the crap that happens afterwards, which gets blamed on Scott, who shows up 'too late to do any good' or whatever.

    Scott's reactive stance is one of the reasons I don't really feel like he's well suited to a visionary role in a mutant society. He's a defender, not a builder. Much like other 'cop' characters like Bishop, he's not the one with the big dreams and the vision to build a better society, he's the one who will punch back if that society is threatened. He's a doer, not a dreamer. And I don't think that's a bad thing, or a diss. That's kind of how he was shaped by Xavier (and his life circumstances, like that damn visor, forcing him into the eternal control-freak persona), and, unfortunately, every place worth living needs it's defenders.

  10. #820
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    We are biased towards wanting to see pro-active characters, and Scott is mostly stuck in a reactive niche.

    Stuff has to go wrong before he's called in, which means he starts out 'in the hole' having apparently 'failed.' Too slow, too late, not good enough, and no matter what he does, something awful is going to happen next month, because, comics don't end. There will never be a forever win unless the company closes it's doors and never writes another story.

    Wolverine gets to go in before things go wrong and try to do pro-active stuff, which, because comics, *also* never results in any lasting good or peace or 'win' for mutantkind, but because Wolverine is seen taking the 'active' role, the aggressive role, the manly role, he somehow escapes the blame for all the crap that happens afterwards, which gets blamed on Scott, who shows up 'too late to do any good' or whatever.

    Scott's reactive stance is one of the reasons I don't really feel like he's well suited to a visionary role in a mutant society. He's a defender, not a builder. Much like other 'cop' characters like Bishop, he's not the one with the big dreams and the vision to build a better society, he's the one who will punch back if that society is threatened. He's a doer, not a dreamer. And I don't think that's a bad thing, or a diss. That's kind of how he was shaped by Xavier (and his life circumstances, like that damn visor, forcing him into the eternal control-freak persona), and, unfortunately, every place worth living needs it's defenders.
    While I suppose one could indeed argue that has been his portrayal (though there are instances to disprove it), I think that's a mistake on the part of the writers who haven't really thought it through.

    A man with plans within plans, and tons of backup plans for each of those *should* have a clear vision. He *should* be a builder. (If you're into the MBTI, Scott is most likely an INTJ).

    What I think Scott doesn't have is the desire to lead. He leads because he has to, because he knows he can do a better job than most people (exactly because he can see around corners - no pun intended :P). And, yes, when he does a good job, it comes with the satisfaction of having done it. But that's mostly because he's a dutiful guy. He probably feels like that about *any* job he does well.

    Even in the context of the duel with Storm for the leadership, unlike what Madelyne accused him of doing (because why try to understand him when he can just be told what *he* is feeling?), he was worried about everything that was going on. The motivation wasn't "I have to lead, because I like it."

    As for Wolverine's "manly" role, I get what you mean, but I think it's sad it's seen like this. Nothing is more manly in my eyes than the role of the "defender", as you put it. But I understand that we don't get to say how most people perceive things.

  11. #821
    Fantastic Member Braxxer's Avatar
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    war captains have become a joke after Hickman left. At the beginning they really leaded during battles and had plans but Hickman left and they forgot about their war captains.

    Not to mention before axe we had a few scenes when Scott strongly disagreed with the council and it leaded nowhere. Even the gala 2022 stated with the jean and scott scene when they agree Krakoa needs changes but again it leaded nowhere

  12. #822
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braxxer View Post
    war captains have become a joke after Hickman left. At the beginning they really leaded during battles and had plans but Hickman left and they forgot about their war captains.

    Not to mention before axe we had a few scenes when Scott strongly disagreed with the council and it leaded nowhere. Even the gala 2022 stated with the jean and scott scene when they agree Krakoa needs changes but again it leaded nowhere
    Did he? Because outside of that one issue where Scott and Gorgon escorted the QC leaders on that diplomatic meeting, I dont feel Hickman really did anything with the war captains. They probably could have benefited from a mini to explore that

  13. #823
    Astonishing Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Remember at the begining of Krakoa, when fans would ask how Krakoa worked, how some characters went from A to Z, etc, and the writers would say we should read to find out?
    I stoped reading a while ago, but for those who are still reading, how many of those question were answered?

  14. #824
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    Remember at the begining of Krakoa, when fans would ask how Krakoa worked, how some characters went from A to Z, etc, and the writers would say we should read to find out?
    I stoped reading a while ago, but for those who are still reading, how many of those question were answered?
    I'd say none, but I'm sure someone would disagree.

    Way of X seemed like it was going to be the book to explain that, but they never made it explicit that Onslaught was the responsible for all those changes. Since no character was shown dealing with the realization that they weren't acting like themselves, the consequences of acting under an external influence and/or reverting significantly to who they were, I'd say that story couldn't really explain everything.

    I'd also say it's still the best we got, but I'll leave it up to each person to judge for themselves.

  15. #825
    Out Fighting for Peace! AJpyro's Avatar
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    Nothing important about Scott but a speech and him being rescued is coming up. Right back into dormancy i go.
    Le Suck it, Dolphin!

    -God I am so tired.

    SCOTT SUMMERS AND EMMA FROST DESERVED BETTER.

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