Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Appreciation 2023

[skyvolt2000]

It's not a competition between Bernard and Steph. People will make it that. But it's not one. And Tim loving Bernard doesn't mean Stephanie means "nothing" to him. People are allowed to move on and into relationships and love their significant others as much as they can.

Imagine if Stephanie and Cassandra started dating if people said that means Tim means nothing to her.

I think the issue is we SAW Tim and Stephanie and that journey in his previous series that went longer than 10 issues.

While with Bernard-we haven't. I think folks wanted to see that journey but as we have seen with most relationships-we don't see it.

[godisawesome]

It's not a competition between Bernard and Steph. People will make it that. But it's not one. And Tim loving Bernard doesn't mean Stephanie means "nothing" to him. People are allowed to move on and into relationships and love their significant others as much as they can.

Imagine if Stephanie and Cassandra started dating if people said that means Tim means nothing to her.

The catch that must be considered is that these are ultimately not people - these are fictional characters created to act as facsimiles of people. It’s not “Steph” and “Bernard” that are in “competition” with each other, but instead a standard of literary execution in relationship writing and character development that the audience expects to see matched…

…Which is where, on top of the obvious meta-textual challenges posed to Fitzmartin and other creators by audience members being resistant to change, we’ve also got the fact that Steph became Tim’s most famous romantic interest almost entirely by accident, and thus had a long, slow development into that role that set a surprisingly high standard that *any* new love interest would struggle with… and that she began as an intriguing character who had her own interesting story first, and doesn’t rely on Tim to work as a character as well.

Steph was initially just a fun recurring character Dixon created while he was busy writing Arianna as Tim’s girlfriend… but Steph being a more intriguing character whose scenes with Tim flowed from more structurally straightforward and “reactive” writing meant that as Dixon realized he was writing her into having a chemistry with Tim that was more organic, more unforced, and more intriguing as a “scene partner.” Steph could be the guest protagonist of an issue or two before she was solidified as “the” romantic interest of the run, which only made her initially ad-hoc and intuited chemistry with Tim carry dual layers from two characters into it.

Bernard’s initial problem is largely the same that Arianna, Zoe, and even some more interesting love interests Tim has had struggled with - the role and function they’re expected to step into is much larger than a mere romantic interest, and depends on razor sharp writing for both characters. Darla and even Cassie struggled in the role of being Tim’s romantic interest because the writing for them during that time was pretty abysmal and uninteresting.

It’s why this last issue might be a game changer, or might simply stall him out for some more time - he was reintroduced pretty much explicitly for a basic, shallow love interest role, and needs to be someone who could hold multiple issues down himself if need be, like Steph, or Lois in Superman and Mary Jane in Spider-Man, who have left proportionally similar marks on their heroes as well.

It’s also why it might have been wiser to try having Tim realize his bisexuality via an attraction to Conner being acknowledged, or even Ives, who at least also has a longer, more organic history with him.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

The catch that must be considered is that these are ultimately not people - these are fictional characters created to act as facsimiles of people. It’s not “Steph” and “Bernard” that are in “competition” with each other, but instead a standard of literary execution in relationship writing and character development that the audience expects to see matched…

…Which is where, on top of the obvious meta-textual challenges posed to Fitzmartin and other creators by audience members being resistant to change, we’ve also got the fact that Steph became Tim’s most famous romantic interest almost entirely by accident, and thus had a long, slow development into that role that set a surprisingly high standard that *any* new love interest would struggle with… and that she began as an intriguing character who had her own interesting story first, and doesn’t rely on Tim to work as a character as well.

Steph was initially just a fun recurring character Dixon created while he was busy writing Arianna as Tim’s girlfriend… but Steph being a more intriguing character whose scenes with Tim flowed from more structurally straightforward and “reactive” writing meant that as Dixon realized he was writing her into having a chemistry with Tim that was more organic, more unforced, and more intriguing as a “scene partner.” Steph could be the guest protagonist of an issue or two before she was solidified as “the” romantic interest of the run, which only made her initially ad-hoc and intuited chemistry with Tim carry dual layers from two characters into it.

Bernard’s initial problem is largely the same that Arianna, Zoe, and even some more interesting love interests Tim has had struggled with - the role and function they’re expected to step into is much larger than a mere romantic interest, and depends on razor sharp writing for both characters. Darla and even Cassie struggled in the role of being Tim’s romantic interest because the writing for them during that time was pretty abysmal and uninteresting.

It’s why this last issue might be a game changer, or might simply stall him out for some more time - he was reintroduced pretty much explicitly for a basic, shallow love interest role, and needs to be someone who could hold multiple issues down himself if need be, like Steph, or Lois in Superman and Mary Jane in Spider-Man, who have left proportionally similar marks on their heroes as well.

It’s also why it might have been wiser to try having Tim realize his bisexuality via an attraction to Conner being acknowledged, or even Ives, who at least also has a longer, more organic history with him.

The last issue fails to develop Bernard at all. This review highlights it:

https://leagueofcomicgeeks.com/commu...hread/16600623

[Psy-lock]

The art is much better now, but it made the bad writing all the more apparent

Though the way Bernard is drawn kinda bothers me. He was noticeably taller than Tim back in the day, but now he's shorter. Isn't Tim supposed to be tiny? Granted, it's a non-issue compared to everything else about the book, but it just feels like more stereotyping.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

The art is much better now, but it made the bad writing all the more apparent

Though the way Bernard is drawn kinda bothers me. He was noticeably taller than Tim back in the day, but now he's shorter. Isn't Tim supposed to be tiny? Granted, it's a non-issue compared to everything else about the book, but it just feels like more stereotyping.

How did it make the bad writing more apparent?

[Psy-lock]

How did it make the bad writing more apparent?

By being good in comparison. Fitzmartin's writing is much more digestible to me when there's bad art to distract from it.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

By being good in comparison. Fitzmartin's writing is much more digestible to me when there's bad art to distract from it.

How did you find the writing bad here?

[WebLurker]

The thing is Tim and Stephanie were together for years both in universe and meta and their love was shown to carry on to another universe and they've shown they still love each other even when they think the other has died and have chosen to spend their final moments together if they must.

To play devil's advocate, relationships aren't static and are either growing or dying. Just because they were solid in the past doesn't mean that would be by default in the future. (Long story short, the Beatles were wrong when they said all you need is love). Whether the breakup was well-written in and of itself can be debated, but there's no inherent contradiction between Tim having had a years-long successful relationship with Steph that was genuinely loving and them still ending up breaking up during a soul-searching period in his life.

So for Tim to almost instantly move on would be a slap in the face to their relationship and act like it was nothing (he was in his honeymoon phase with Steph but didn't act like he was with Bernard despite the depths they had). It is why Tim's whole "Stephanie was everything he wanted and more" in the Pride Special is BS as none of his actions under his current writer support that. He even said he was settling before Bernard and claims Bernard is doing things Stephanie did which is a middle finger to their relationship and dumping on it to prop up Bernard. It's also hard to buy as we never see Bernard doing all the things that makes him so great or why he is "better" as before Tim and Steph were doing fine and better than ever. This case it is making it meaningless.

Also look at things from a meta perspective. Stephanie has been his default love interest and primary one for like 20+ years. To instantly within a year meta wise to act like new one is his OTP when it isn't fully fleshed out is just throwing it under the bus and making it a joke meta wise.

Again it is like what they are doing with Spider-Man and MJ.

I don't think Tim/Steph are anywhere near the level of Spider-Man/MJ (for starters, Tim/Steph is not ubiquitous across the franchise as a whole or as character-defining an element as Spider-Man loving MJ is). Also, these characters are very much set by "Depending on the Writer." If Fitzmartin want's Steph and Tim to have been mutually incompatible and Bernard to have been the right guy all along, that's how the Force works. If future writers want Tim/Steph back, all they got to do is write that Tim was confused and Steph really is his one true love and, boom, that is the new reality.

Annoying if you don't like the thing the writers are using, but that's the nature of the beast. The takeaway I get from it is that everything hinges on the behind-the-scenes stuff. In this case, the question is if Tim/Bernard is on the way out with the comic or if DC is committed to this status quo long-term. (Hot take, but I think Steph could be replaced as Tim's OTP. As we know from Spider-Man, it is possible for the endgame love interest to be a newer character who steals the crown from the original. Not saying it will, but I think the ship's lack of visibility in adaptations -- e.g. the thing that shapes most people's perception of the franchise and characters -- shouldn't be ignored.)

Also why are you acting like StephCass is canon when it isn't (and won't be).

True, but why so much subtext (I have seen solid fictional relationships built on a lot less than what we're getting for the pair)? I can follow that people will read too much into things, but why write stuff that fits so well into the theory?

[sunofdarkchild]

The problem with the Tim/Bernard relationship can be summed up in two words: Meghan Fitzmartin. She is the worst writer I have ever seen in comics. She fails at every aspect of writing. Story structure, scene composition and flow, dialogue, and character. It's all horrible. No relationship can work when written by a writer as bad at the job as she is. If DC wants to push Bernard as Tim's one true love and have it gain any level of acceptance beyond the slashfic crowd. the first step is to fire Fitzmartin and put the characters under the pen of a good writer and start from scratch. There aren't that many good writers in the comics industry right now, but literally anyone else would be better than Fitzmartin.

[Astralabius]

I'm getting uncomfortable with the amount of hate people are sending Fitzmartin. You don't like her writing? That's okay. But some of you are acting as if she wrote Tim as a crazy serial killer instead of just a kind of bland gay detective.
DC has done much worse to other characters in the past, this isn't nearly as bad, it's just not good.

[sunofdarkchild]

I'm getting uncomfortable with the amount of hate people are sending Fitzmartin. You don't like her writing? That's okay. But some of you are acting as if she wrote Tim as a crazy serial killer instead of just a kind of bland gay detective.
DC has done much worse to other characters in the past, this isn't nearly as bad, it's just not good.

You have a point that as far as character derailment goes, Emerald Twilight was worse for Hal Jordan and War Games was worse for Stephanie Brown. But both of those stories are far better than Fitzmartin's writing because there is a basic level of competency to the writing and storytelling which Fitzmartin lacks. In this issue there is no flow from scene to scene, with the worst offender being the scene where Tim changes out of costume to have a walk before realizing he didn't finish the fight scene. The dialogue is bad, 'such as 'have a good pee.' The author's intent of the fire being in Bernard's mind is horribly conveyed to the point where the vast majority of people won't realize it, and the issue is still nonsensical even if you do realize it. The problems go far beyond anything to do with how any specific character is written and stem from failures at the most basic level of using words and images to convey information and tell a story. And those problems would be just as bad even if she was trying to write a story where Tim was exactly the same as he was under Dixon and dating Stephanie.

[Super_kon]

The problem with the Tim/Bernard relationship can be summed up in two words: Meghan Fitzmartin. She is the worst writer I have ever seen in comics. She fails at every aspect of writing. Story structure, scene composition and flow, dialogue, and character. It's all horrible. No relationship can work when written by a writer as bad at the job as she is. If DC wants to push Bernard as Tim's one true love and have it gain any level of acceptance beyond the slashfic crowd. the first step is to fire Fitzmartin and put the characters under the pen of a good writer and start from scratch. There aren't that many good writers in the comics industry right now, but literally anyone else would be better than Fitzmartin.

I think Felicia Henderson was worse, but not by much.

[godisawesome]

I'm getting uncomfortable with the amount of hate people are sending Fitzmartin. You don't like her writing? That's okay. But some of you are acting as if she wrote Tim as a crazy serial killer instead of just a kind of bland gay detective.
DC has done much worse to other characters in the past, this isn't nearly as bad, it's just not good.

Fitzmartin's writing on Young Justice was significantly worse as well. Her work with Tim seems to be more lackluster rather than repellant, and she's hardly the first Tim Drake writer to be lackluster. Lobdell is still the one who accidentally had Tim and Cassie sexually assaulted via Trigon meddling.

[Konja7]

Fitzmartin's writing on Young Justice was significantly worse as well. Her work with Tim seems to be more lackluster rather than repellant, and she's hardly the first Tim Drake writer to be lackluster. Lobdell is still the one who accidentally had Tim and Cassie sexually assaulted via Trigon meddling.

The last issue of New52 Teen Titans seems to imply Tim and Cassie only kissed. I've understood Lobdell has mentioned it was only a kiss.

So, it seems Lobdell a sexual assault was a pretty bad idea.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I think a noticeable flaw is how for the intention for Bernard to be a relationship with Tim not tied to Robin....this issues shows how it does boil down to Robin. Like Tim making him feel "safe" has largely been shown through him saving him multiple times as Robin. Tim being his "lucky charm" has also primarily been shown through saving him as Robin as well. Tim also being "special" is also through Robin as well. And the thing that saves their relationship is Bernard knowing Tim is Robin, which again boils down to Robin.