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  1. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    DC should make a Batfamily Anthology book with Tim, Kate, Steph, Cass and maybe one or two more. Maybe combining all of them in one book can make it sustain sales.

    While that would make 100% sense-we all know how FANS or those who CLAIM to be fans act.

    How many fits would be thrown about who is in the book every month?

    Why not do two Batfamily books

    40 pager at $5.

    Issue 1-2- Tim Drake
    Issue 3-4- Batwoman
    Issue 5-6 Steph
    Issue 7-8 Cass
    Issue 9-10 Jean Paul
    Issue 11-12 Renee Montoya

    Issue 1-2 Batwing
    Issue 3-4 Clown Hunter
    Issue 5-6 Harper Row
    Issue 7-8 Gotham Academy
    Issue 9-10 Black Lightning
    Issue 11-12 Katana

    Give every their own spotlight. If one issue is enough give that second one to Damian, Alfred, Red Hood, Gotham Central and so on.

  2. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZuLuLu View Post
    DC has no reason that the failure of this book has anything to do with Tim's sexuality, love interest, or even Fitzmartin's writing the loudest criticism from the start of the book was the art everything else was secondary.
    Pretty much almost every complaint even those who loved the story have screamed about the art.

  3. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZuLuLu View Post
    It is just DC pride but issue 10 of Urban Legend had increased sales when Tim came out in that issue, they also saw an increase in sales in the issues that started the story, which is why they put the collection for sale in the Tim Drake Pride Special but by that time the majority of people who were interested already bought these issues.

    From the outside, we don't always see everything that the company is looking at but I guess if DC didn't see a positive response from Meghan Fitzmartin's Future State stories and Urban Ledgen stories she would not have gotten the Young Justice book and the Tim Drake solo.

    DC has no reason that the failure of this book has anything to do with Tim's sexuality, love interest, or even Fitzmartin's writing the loudest criticism from the start of the book was the art everything else was secondary.
    I would not be surprised if that “positive response” they see with Fitzmartin is also tied to her being the main artistic force behind Tim being bi as a concept, and less to do with the reviews the comics get or the financial impact the book may or may not be making.

    Please note: this is NOT some “woke = broke” nonsense on my part.

    What I'm saying is that positive feedback and buzz for Tim at all, whether it’s reflected on the books themselves or not, is the appeal. Fitzmartin pushing for and executing the change in Tim has generated positive feedback on the Internet for Tim, even if the books haven’t. Getting interest from representation is a positive… even if failing at harnessing that interest into loyal paying customers isn’t.

    There’s a chance that the issue with the Tim/Bernard fanbase in DC’s eyes isn’t a lack of interest in the pairing, but a lack of interest in buying or reviewing comics by those who are interested - a possible quirk of Fitzmartin writing the relationship and pairing from inspiration she herself had on fan-creation communities like Tumblr or LiveJournal rather than from more conventional comic brainstorming. Most “shipper artists” exist in an interactive community that’s about generating its own material, rather than just consuming and analyzing professional content - thus the stereotype of all shipping communities (whether into straight or otherwise relationship) not needing anything from the professionally generated content aside from pretty faces to act as muses for writing and drawing.

    And if that’s the issue, than the problem might be that DC editors might just not know any other writer or creator who could replace Fitzmartin and at least maintain that positive if unprofitable interest, or how to cultivate more productive writing from Fitzmartin.

    Notably, that issue doesn’t apply to the Titans TV show, where they’ve given Bernard Fitzmartin’s last name as a tribute to her canonizing the idea in the comics. And again, I might argue that if the STARS scientist Bernard succeeds, it’s likely because he’s being written for a more consumer-based audience than the comic version.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    If they're going to really promote him as Bi then they can't take Stephanie off the table, especially when she's way more compelling than Bernard.
    Debatable, because these are fictional characters and the world isn’t perfect.

    A “nominally” bi Tim dating Stephanie or any other female love interest is going to be seen as “presented” as straight in marketing, and while actual bisexual readers are likely to not mind or even feel that’s authentic, if the marketing idea is to try constantly appealing to the LGBTQ+ community, than a straight relationship works against that. Catwoman and Harley Quinn are both bisexual, but only Harley really ever gets marketed as that because she and Ivy are the major pairing for her now.

    It’s still sort of an issue with trying to make a more marketing approach towards representation, especially with Tim having a major love interest who’s female. The same sex romantic interest has to compete with an opposite sex romantic interest in terms of literary value, but as far as marketing is concerned, that doesn’t matter, so there’s a lack of sufficient push to actually make the roamnce quality.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 03-18-2023 at 11:57 AM.
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  4. #469
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I would not be surprised if that “positive response” they see with Fitzmartin is also tied to her being the main artistic force behind Tim being bi as a concept, and less to do with the reviews the comics get or the financial impact the book may or may not be making.

    Please note: this is NOT some “woke = broke” nonsense on my part.

    What I'm saying is that positive feedback and buzz for Tim at all, whether it’s reflected on the books themselves or not, is the appeal. Fitzmartin pushing for and executing the change in Tim has generated positive feedback on the Internet for Tim, even if the books haven’t. Getting interest from representation is a positive… even if failing at harnessing that interest into loyal paying customers isn’t.

    There’s a chance that the issue with the Tim/Bernard fanbase in DC’s eyes isn’t a lack of interest in the pairing, but a lack of interest in buying or reviewing comics by those who are interested - a possible quirk of Fitzmartin writing the relationship and pairing from inspiration she herself had on fan-creation communities like Tumblr or LiveJournal rather than from more conventional comic brainstorming. Most “shipper artists” exist in an interactive community that’s about generating its own material, rather than just consuming and analyzing professional content - thus the stereotype of all shipping communities (whether into straight or otherwise relationship) not needing anything from the professionally generated content aside from pretty faces to act as muses for writing and drawing.

    And if that’s the issue, than the problem might be that DC editors might just not know any other writer or creator who could replace Fitzmartin and at least maintain that positive if unprofitable interest, or how to cultivate more productive writing from Fitzmartin.

    Notably, that issue doesn’t apply to the Titans TV show, where they’ve given Bernard Fitzmartin’s last name as a tribute to her canonizing the idea in the comics. And again, I might argue that if the STARS scientist Bernard succeeds, it’s likely because he’s being written for a more consumer-based audience than the comic version.


    Debatable, because these are fictional characters and the world isn’t perfect.

    A “nominally” bi Tim dating Stephanie or any other female love interest is going to be seen as “presented” as straight in marketing, and while actual bisexual readers are likely to not mind or even feel that’s authentic, if the marketing idea is to try constantly appealing to the LGBTQ+ community, than a straight relationship works against that. Catwoman and Harley Quinn are both bisexual, but only Harley really ever gets marketed as that because she and Ivy are the major pairing for her now.

    It’s still sort of an issue with trying to make a more marketing approach towards representation, especially with Tim having a major love interest who’s female. The same sex romantic interest has to compete with an opposite sex romantic interest in terms of literary value, but as far as marketing is concerned, that doesn’t matter, so there’s a lack of sufficient push to actually make the roamnce quality.
    Ironic, as bisexual literally means they're interested in both men and women.

  5. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    If they're going to really promote him as Bi then they can't take Stephanie off the table, especially when she's way more compelling than Bernard.
    They are not just promoting him as bi but they are also promoting him as one of their prominent characters who is in a same-sex relationship.

    I don't think Steph will be off the table forever but she will be off the table for now.

    I think one thing fans need to remember Tim is a teen/young adult character and one thing publishers don't like is his having these characters in any permanent "settled " relationships, it removes a certain aspect of 'teen' drama from these characters.

    These characters are meant to be coming-of-age characters this is why Steph and Cass in the recent 'Batgirls' run was meant to be written as somewhat younger.
    Last edited by ZuLuLu; 03-18-2023 at 12:37 PM.

  6. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Pretty much almost every complaint even those who loved the story have screamed about the art.
    Exactly. I've seen a lot of people post that they could not buy the book because of the art.

    I say this as someone who likes Rossmo's art for the demographic DC was aiming at with this book his art was a bad fit.

  7. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Pretty much almost every complaint even those who loved the story have screamed about the art.
    I mean you have the combination of an art style that just doesn't belongs in a DC Super Hero book, writing that is at best mediocre, are writer that basically pissed a large part of the fanbase of with her Dark Crisis Young Justcie book and the controversial sexuality change.

    I can't think of a book that had ever more stacked against it.

  8. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    While that may be true, to play devil's advocate, resetting things to Steph could be taken as a form of bi erasure (e.g. "we're going to say Tim's bi, but only pay lip service to the idea), if that makes any sense.

    Guess it depends on how committed DC is to the Bernard relationship and all that. (Also not sure that Steph is that iconic as Tim's girlfriend that she can't be replaced as the OTP, but time will tell on that.)
    Well, it's not like some of the other bi characters at DC don't have main love interests of the opposite sex.

    I have a hard time seeing a love interest who only seems to exist for the sake of having Tim date a guy supplanting Steph (especially when it seems like that's all he's really there for and to get mentioned or briefly appear in media to give Tim a gay romance). Maybe if they used Superboy but it doesn't seem like DC allowed Fitzmartin to bite that bullet. Maybe Bunker? But I doubt anyone can beat the history and development Steph got.
    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Debatable, because these are fictional characters and the world isn’t perfect.

    A “nominally” bi Tim dating Stephanie or any other female love interest is going to be seen as “presented” as straight in marketing, and while actual bisexual readers are likely to not mind or even feel that’s authentic, if the marketing idea is to try constantly appealing to the LGBTQ+ community, than a straight relationship works against that. Catwoman and Harley Quinn are both bisexual, but only Harley really ever gets marketed as that because she and Ivy are the major pairing for her now.

    It’s still sort of an issue with trying to make a more marketing approach towards representation, especially with Tim having a major love interest who’s female. The same sex romantic interest has to compete with an opposite sex romantic interest in terms of literary value, but as far as marketing is concerned, that doesn’t matter, so there’s a lack of sufficient push to actually make the roamnce quality.
    Conversely they're pretty much depicting him like he's fully gay right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZuLuLu View Post
    They are not just promoting him as bi but they are also promoting him as one of their prominent characters who is in a same-sex relationship.

    I don't think Steph will be off the table forever but she will be off the table for now.

    I think one thing fans need to remember Tim is a teen/young adult character and one thing publishers don't like is his having these characters in any permanent "settled " relationships, it removes a certain aspect of 'teen' drama from these characters.

    These characters are meant to be coming-of-age characters this is why Steph and Cass in the recent 'Batgirls' run was meant to be written as somewhat younger.
    Which would probably be more reasonable if Bernard felt like an actual, fleshed out, and memorable character and not someone who seems to just exist so Tim can date a guy which I think is part of the problem.

  9. #474
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    One issue with Tim's love life, is that there's historically been a dearth of queer men in the Batbooks.
    Lesbians and bi women, they have plenty.
    But until very recently the only queer male recurring character in the Bat books was Cullen Row, a minor civilian supporting character.
    So if you put Tim with Steph or any other girl, you're back to zero male male relationships. If the Bat books had more queer men around there would be less pressure for Tim to be the sole representative.
    Yes, there's Ghost Maker now. He isn't nearly as prominent a character as Tim, but it is progress.
    I've seen, and participated, in speculation that Tim was gay for years, so it doesn't seem like a jarring change for the character to me. Bernard as the love interest isn't really one I'm stoked for though. I'd prefer to see Tim with someone else in time. Conner if DC would let it happen, but if not, Cullen is a character with more ties and honestly a more interesting and likable character than Bernard.

  10. #475
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, it's not like some of the other bi characters at DC don't have main love interests of the opposite sex.
    True, but not many of them are marketed as LGBTQ+ characters (Catwoman is primarily defined as being in love with Batman, for example). For better or worse, Tim has been rebranded as an LGBTQ+ character and I wonder if that will affect how he's handled going forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I have a hard time seeing a love interest who only seems to exist for the sake of having Tim date a guy supplanting Steph (especially when it seems like that's all he's really there for and to get mentioned or briefly appear in media to give Tim a gay romance). Maybe if they used Superboy but it doesn't seem like DC allowed Fitzmartin to bite that bullet. Maybe Bunker? But I doubt anyone can beat the history and development Steph got.
    Tim/Steph aren't exactly ubiquitous in the larger franchise, which I wonder may make their position as an OTP less than totally secure (compare Marvel's attempts to erase Spider-Man/Mary Jane from the comics in light of them being the most used OPT of the whole Spider-Man franchise). We have seen instances in the past where the endgame love interest was successfully replaced by a new character. Granted, Bernard may not be the deepest character, but, if DC stayed the course and developed him, I could see him successfully replacing Steph (esp. if DC continues using him in adaptations and continues the trend of Steph being defined by her other attributes instead of being Tim's girlfriend).

    It's not a given (as we've seen time and again, the comic book companies don't like change or their characters being in committed relationships for good), but, I guess between the question of whether having Tim date Steph again would be taken to have unfortunate implications by the readership and what a small part of Batman their relationship is, I think it's at least possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Conversely they're pretty much depicting him like he's fully gay right now.
    Guess that's kind of the "double standard," given the history of mismatched and under-used representation; if Tim is written as being gay, he could be still seen as representing LGBTQ-ness in general, so still bi. Have him date a woman, even if that's something that bisexual people do, it creates the appearance that he's being "straight-washed" (esp. given that saying a character is bi, but only showing them in opposite sex relationships to get brownie points for doing nothing, is a thing). Obviously, that's not how real life works, but, with fiction, realism sometimes has unfortunate implications, fair or not.
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    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  11. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noodle View Post
    Not really. They constantly push the Constantine/Zatanna thing and no one has an issue with it.
    Constantine is like Catwoman who is bisexual but since Bruce is her ONE it doesn’t really matter. That why she not on the cover of any of those PRIdE issues they are not selling that. They will mention past relationships and flings but if the one they can only see themselves with is the opposite sex.



    But TIM/ROBIN is apart of that 6 face lineup he has to be in a relationship with a man.

  12. #477
    Amazing Member Fire Angel's Avatar
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    Tim’s success that he had from his 183 issue run came from the fact that he was a Peter Parker clone, superhero half the time, while the other half at school, dating, or at home with his lone guardian Aunt May. Ooops, I meant to say Jack Drake!

    In this new run he didn’t feel like Spider-Man but as Robin which is why I think it failed. It felt like he only got a book to be with Bernard and to appease gay readers instead of being a comic designed to compete with Spider-Man.

  13. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    If the Bat books had more queer men around there would be less pressure for Tim to be the sole representative.
    is there really a pressure?
    I mean you have occasionally articles on comic books news site complaining about representation, but at least the direct market (aka the core customer base for monthly comics), doesn't seem to support it on the long run,or in case of this book not even on the short run.

  14. #479
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    True, but not many of them are marketed as LGBTQ+ characters (Catwoman is primarily defined as being in love with Batman, for example). For better or worse, Tim has been rebranded as an LGBTQ+ character and I wonder if that will affect how he's handled going forward.
    Well, his recent media appearances have included Bernard or a mention of Bernard (which seems like most of the reason why he even exists at this point) so that's probably pretty telling in and of itself.
    Tim/Steph aren't exactly ubiquitous in the larger franchise, which I wonder may make their position as an OTP less than totally secure (compare Marvel's attempts to erase Spider-Man/Mary Jane from the comics in light of them being the most used OPT of the whole Spider-Man franchise). We have seen instances in the past where the endgame love interest was successfully replaced by a new character. Granted, Bernard may not be the deepest character, but, if DC stayed the course and developed him, I could see him successfully replacing Steph (esp. if DC continues using him in adaptations and continues the trend of Steph being defined by her other attributes instead of being Tim's girlfriend).

    It's not a given (as we've seen time and again, the comic book companies don't like change or their characters being in committed relationships for good), but, I guess between the question of whether having Tim date Steph again would be taken to have unfortunate implications by the readership and what a small part of Batman their relationship is, I think it's at least possible.
    I don't know if I'd say ubquitous but looking at the past stories involving them in the past few years you can't really say their relationship and how important they are to each other wasn't relevant much in the way Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon's relationship is, albeit without the benefit of being as used or as prominent as those two are.

    Considering how they've been using Bernard so far I have a hard time imagining him becoming developed enough or having enough history with Tim to properly replace Steph, especially when he feels more like he's there to service a function rather than as a legitimate romance most of the time. Maybe they should give him a purple costume, call him "Revealer," and have him hit Tim with a brick? He's already blonde.

    I mean, if he's really bisexual it shouldn't be seen as controversial for him to date a girl.
    Guess that's kind of the "double standard," given the history of mismatched and under-used representation; if Tim is written as being gay, he could be still seen as representing LGBTQ-ness in general, so still bi. Have him date a woman, even if that's something that bisexual people do, it creates the appearance that he's being "straight-washed" (esp. given that saying a character is bi, but only showing them in opposite sex relationships to get brownie points for doing nothing, is a thing). Obviously, that's not how real life works, but, with fiction, realism sometimes has unfortunate implications, fair or not.
    I guess it's hard to depict bi people.

  15. #480
    Mighty Member Felipe Silveira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    is there really a pressure?
    I mean you have occasionally articles on comic books news site complaining about representation, but at least the direct market (aka the core customer base for monthly comics), doesn't seem to support it on the long run,or in case of this book not even on the short run.
    This is true, internet pressure cannot be taken as a trend or market need.
    The reading here is twofold: bad writing (and I wouldn't be surprised if Meghan gets a new comic, DC is stupid) and readers aren't interested in a Tim bi, especially with that being the only thing the book has going for it.

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