Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Appreciation 2023

[staptik777]

I would not consider him a Mary Sue: he's not particularly great at anything, nor is he beyond making mistakes, nor does he lecture the other characters to prop himself up. A Mary Sue/Gary Stu is insufferable.

Bernard is quite bland, but that's better than annoying.

Relationship Sue
"A Mary Sue who exists to be the perfect mate for a specific character. Far beyond Magical Girlfriend or Yamato Nadeshiko (which present extraordinary mates, but are played more-or-less realistically), this character has everything in the plot conspiring to enforce this One True Pairing. The author will generally either use this character as a stand-in for them to vicariously live out a relationship with the designated other half, or as their ideal significant other while they use a more "normal" character as their stand-in (sometimes both).

It's worth noting that since Wish-Fulfillment places having a healthy, idealistic romantic relationship as one of its cornerstones, most Mary Sue characters will include an element of romance. They don't really become a Relationship Sue unless it becomes obvious that character exists, first and foremost, to be in a relationship with another character."

DC never marketed Tim as bi

[Stryfe8]

They already brought back Tim's father at one point with the back story that he was in witness protection and then that was ignored.

Tim being the 'normal one' is often linked with Tim being a kid having secret adventures with a Batman without his parents knowing it was pure wishful fulfillment and as Tim started to age up a lot of that wishful fulfillment was removed and the consequences of being Robin was more or less tragic for Tim, his parents were dead, he could not save them, he dropped out of school and Robin began to seem more like a burden for the character than a fun adventure.

Then he started to become more Batman lite, with Red Robin, now that is not a problem because looking at the trajectory of the character, Tim becoming the most like Batman actually works and the a lot of fans did embrace the Red Robin moniker and darker personality but the problem was DC already had two dark Batman protégés in Jason and Damian, who fit the role better.

Additionally, Red Robin always seem like it would be temporary as Tim viewed it as tarnished, with the main mission of proving Bruce was alive, this didn't support a good transition for a character.

This is why fans wanting Tim going back to the 'normal one', 'the relatable one' doesn't work as it use to because Tim can no longer be the wishful fulfillment kid they are nostalgia for. Tim going to collage and struggling to get his degree while being a vigilante is not suddenly going to make him more interesting, that just a change in environment.

Before, Tim can be developed the first thing any writer must asked what is his motive for still being a vigilante and tell that story because right now as a character he has no heart, with Bruce, Dick and even Jason you have a idea why they still put on the mask, I don't think that same thing can be said of Tim. I mean the first story Zdarsky came up with for Tim so far is saving Batman, is that Tim's purpose ?

well its kinda full circle isnt it? he originally became robin to save batman

[sunofdarkchild]

Then Tim is completely ruined forever and the only sensible thing to do is put him out to pasture. His existence serves no purpose at this point and there is nothing that can be done to make him a worthwhile character again.

[ZuLuLu]

well its kinda full circle isnt it? he originally became robin to save batman

I think that is what Zdarsky was intent in the story, to show that Bruce somehow needs Tim but when he has Dick say to Tim that he trust that Bruce is competent enough to save himself like he usually does, I don't think it works.

[ayanestar]

I think that is what Zdarsky was intent in the story, to show that Bruce somehow needs Tim but when he has Dick say to Tim that he trust that Bruce is competent enough to save himself like he usually does, I don't think it works.

Tim's original goal doesn't work when Batman has like 1064635 people in Gotham and outside of Gotham he could call for help. Dick isn't on bad terms with Bruce anymore, Jason is alive and doesn't wish to kill him anymore, Damian and Bruce are getting along now, then we also have the Batgirls and Bruce's new best friend just to name a few. This is why we need less of nostalgia and more original ideas for Tim.

[godisawesome]

I wholeheartedly agree with this: Dick, Barbara and Jason all have stories that define them and mark their transition from their original roles into their later mantles. Tim would need an equally impactful one to work. I don't envy DC here, as I don't think it's easy to write a memorable or impactful story that fans will embrace. I also think it needs increasing complexity to stick. Something as simple as Nightwing's origin would not work for Tim, for example.

I don't think Nightwing's transition is as uniformly famous as stated here; Jason's is, since it comes with the whole death-resurrection thing, but Dick's generally thought as having just sort of vaguely "graduated" while going through a rough patch with Bruce and while with the Titans. The Judas Contract is a famous story in and of itself, but Dick's assumption of the Nightwing codename and costume was incidental, and gets treated as such.

What really sells a graduation is solid, strong writing afterwards to make it a cool change in status quo. Dick had that with Wolfman, Jason wound up getting that from Lobdell even if Lobdell was otherwise aggressively mediocre or worse, and Tim had that with Yost and Nicieza before the New 52.

I'd argue Jason's struggles before Flashpoint illustrate the same difficulty Tim has had since, ironically enough; it's more the need for detailed consistency that sells the transition.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I would not consider him a Mary Sue: he's not particularly great at anything, nor is he beyond making mistakes, nor does he lecture the other characters to prop himself up. A Mary Sue/Gary Stu is insufferable.

Bernard is quite bland, but that's better than annoying.



This is all true, and good to be reminded of.



I agree, but I don't think the father and being back in high school would help. That was 30 years ago, and the high school boys demographic doesn't read comics as much as it did then.

The Batman comics have also noticeably shifted more towards the aspect of found family in the past decade or so, at least compared to what we read in the 2000s, and I think pushing Tim away from the Batfamily would make him even less popular.

Generally, I agree he needs a distinctive story to move past Robin, but it's difficult to accomplish that.

Bernard is too perfect. Like he can fight at Tim's level forreasons and so quickly, he's majoring in physics and biology and is a good chef, everyone seems to like him in Tim's circle with Tim's girlfriend being an instant fangirl upon meeting him (without accident after being dumped and ghosted by Tim BTW). Tim within less than a year from a meta perspective and issue 1 in his solo was saying how he's the best thing that happened to him and better than everything before where was "settling" without showing it and every issue is constantly putting him on a pedestal and Tim telling us how great he is (without showing us). The latest issues shows he is heroic enough to save his parents from a supervillain without being scared for himself and more for them despite them cutting him off and even plead for their lives over his to the point where the villains notice him out of all the civilians they are attacking and mention it to one another. And he knows Tim is Robin so Tim doesn't have to worry about missing dates and such and kills a big blow of tension in their relationship.

DC never marketed Tim as bi, he is marketed as one of their LGBT+ characters. I don't think Tim himself has actually said the word bi himself, he just describe his feeling that readers can assume he is bi and after the issue of UL#10 DC simply said Tim dates guys now or something along those lines. Tim being bi just means that he was genuinely attracted to his pass female love interest, he could never date a girl again an still be bi.

I say this as some one who do not care who Tim dates.

DC Pride 2023 and Tim's Pride special said specifically he was bi.

[staptik777]

Then Tim is completely ruined forever and the only sensible thing to do is put him out to pasture. His existence serves no purpose at this point and there is nothing that can be done to make him a worthwhile character again.

[Anthony W]

If you believe there is a way back from this, you're deluding yourself. Tim has come out as bi, and he shall be bi henceforth.

There is no putting the genie back in the bottle. Even if you were correct - and I don't think you are - that a Tim Drake comic would have sold better before he came out, there is no circumstance in which the revenue from the comic would be worth the negative outlook of retconning his bisexuality out. It would be a PR nightmare.

This is especially true since there is no other major male LGBT character in the Batfamily.

Taking away a reason for the fanbase not to read the book by dumping a direction that no one wanted and no one seems to be able to justify is a good idea. Think of it as choosing to swim...without one less rock tied to yourself. And yes, the revenue would be worth dropping it. It's not as if this was one of the core foundations of the character. So let's stop pretending that it is and recognize it for a failed gimmick done in the most craven fashion. Just because people may agree with a bad idea doesn't make it any less of a bad idea. Fitzmartin's direction was a bad idea. People on this board seem determined to hold on to that bad idea but to DC it was just a sales gimmick and an attempt to be mentioned on television.

As for the backlash? DC can't get people to care now. Bite the bullet watch a few people on Twitter get upset and keep it moving. I'm betting that the threat of the backlash is more effective than the actual backlash.

[Digifiend]

Tim debuted a new costume today.
https://www.cbr.com/robin-tim-drake-...iverse-travel/

[Daedalus]

I don't think Nightwing's transition is as uniformly famous as stated here; Jason's is, since it comes with the whole death-resurrection thing, but Dick's generally thought as having just sort of vaguely "graduated" while going through a rough patch with Bruce and while with the Titans. The Judas Contract is a famous story in and of itself, but Dick's assumption of the Nightwing codename and costume was incidental, and gets treated as such.

What really sells a graduation is solid, strong writing afterwards to make it a cool change in status quo. Dick had that with Wolfman, Jason wound up getting that from Lobdell even if Lobdell was otherwise aggressively mediocre or worse, and Tim had that with Yost and Nicieza before the New 52.

I'd argue Jason's struggles before Flashpoint illustrate the same difficulty Tim has had since, ironically enough; it's more the need for detailed consistency that sells the transition.

I agree with the general sentiment that Dick's graduation to Nightwing was nothing special as a story, but it was somewhat of a new concept back then, so that held itself. As mentioned in my message, I don't think something that simple would work now for Tim.

I do take your point that Red Hood as we know him was truly established by Lobdell, just as Simone established Barbara, or Dixon did with Dick. Those runs all came much after the transition that prompted them, but they cemented the characters. I think that is a fair point, a good correction to what I had said, and a hopeful note that the right writer could do the same for Tim.

Taking away a reason for the fanbase not to read the book by dumping a direction that no one wanted and no one seems to be able to justify is a good idea. Think of it as choosing to swim...without one less rock tied to yourself. And yes, the revenue would be worth dropping it. It's not as if this was one of the core foundations of the character. So let's stop pretending that it is and recognize it for a failed gimmick done in the most craven fashion. Just because people may agree with a bad idea doesn't make it any less of a bad idea. Fitzmartin's direction was a bad idea. People on this board seem determined to hold on to that bad idea but to DC it was just a sales gimmick and an attempt to be mentioned on television.

As for the backlash? DC can't get people to care now. Bite the bullet watch a few people on Twitter get upset and keep it moving. I'm betting that the threat of the backlash is more effective than the actual backlash.

I don't think Tim fans are as united in this revolt as you think they are. They were also not enough on their own to sustain a comic before Fitzmartin. They were doing nothing with the character, so DC has lost nothing with this gamble.

Whoever takes over for Fitzmartin will not retcon Tim's coming out - I would bet everything I own on that, then I would borrow as much as I could and bet on that as well. It's simply not feasible, and it would cause an uproar not only on Twitter but in regular news and within the industry itself. Do you think Taylor would work for a company that did that? Or Zdarsky? Marie Javins, DC's Editor-in-Chief, won the Inkpot Award at last year's SDCC with all accompanying accolades. Do you think she'd win it if this happened? Do you think she'd ever be invited to the event again? Regardless of how you feel about those people, it would be a nightmare for DC editorial. There is no possible future in which Tim's comic is profitable enough to warrant that.

And again, it's not his coming out that made him unprofitable. He was already unprofitable beforehand. At least now they get to include him in the yearly Pride issue, which sold quite well last year, and maybe slowly build interest on him there.

Tim debuted a new costume today.
https://www.cbr.com/robin-tim-drake-...iverse-travel/

I'm fine with it. I like the art.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I agree with the general sentiment that Dick's graduation to Nightwing was nothing special as a story, but it was somewhat of a new concept back then, so that held itself. As mentioned in my message, I don't think something that simple would work now for Tim.

I do take your point that Red Hood as we know him was truly established by Lobdell, just as Simone established Barbara, or Dixon did with Dick. Those runs all came much after the transition that prompted them, but they cemented the characters. I think that is a fair point, a good correction to what I had said, and a hopeful note that the right writer could do the same for Tim.



I don't think Tim fans are as united in this revolt as you think they are. They were also not enough on their own to sustain a comic before Fitzmartin. They were doing nothing with the character, so DC has lost nothing with this gamble.

Whoever takes over for Fitzmartin will not retcon Tim's coming out - I would bet everything I own on that, then I would borrow as much as I could and bet on that as well. It's simply not feasible, and it would cause an uproar not only on Twitter but in regular news and within the industry itself. Do you think Taylor would work for a company that did that? Or Zdarsky? Marie Javins, DC's Editor-in-Chief, won the Inkpot Award at last year's SDCC with all accompanying accolades. Do you think she'd win it if this happened? Do you think she'd ever be invited to the event again? Regardless of how you feel about those people, it would be a nightmare for DC editorial. There is no possible future in which Tim's comic is profitable enough to warrant that.

And again, it's not his coming out that made him unprofitable. He was already unprofitable beforehand. At least now they get to include him in the yearly Pride issue, which sold quite well last year, and maybe slowly build interest on him there.



I'm fine with it. I like the art.

Tim is said to be unprofitable but if I recall his return in Detective Comics Rebirth spiked up sales for it.

[Konja7]

Tim is said to be unprofitable but if I recall his return in Detective Comics Rebirth spiked up sales for it.

I mean, it has a little spike but nothing remarkable:

Detective Comics #964: 53,552
Detective Comics #965: 57,102

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I mean, it has a little spike but nothing remarkable:

Detective Comics #964: 53,552
Detective Comics #965: 57,102

How did his other series in te new 52/rebirth prior to his current one sell?

[Rufio]

Tim debuted a new costume today.
https://www.cbr.com/robin-tim-drake-...iverse-travel/

WOW! That’s a huge R. But in seriousness, I do like it.

I like that it doesn’t have a cape. I know some people will complain that he doesn’t have a cape, but I think it’s fine. Brett Booth complained that Tim was a cape guy and that is how we had the feather wings from his New-52 outfit. So no cape is better than Falcon rip-off cape which the creeps dubbed a Vegas showgirl outfit.

No cape is good cape!