Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Appreciation 2023

[OBrianTallent]

I think at this point, the thing to do would not be to return Tim to status quo and forget the whole thing. Readers would be willing to accept (I think) Tim as being bi if it were with a completely different character. Bernard is the one who needs to be sacrificed due to bad writing. Bernard can't handle the life of a super hero so he bails. Give Tim some time and if necessary bring in Cullen as someone above suggested.
I agree at this point Tim needs to be part of an ensemble cast (and unfortunately, Fitzmartin did enough damage to the YJ brand that unless they got a mega star creative team now's not the time to bring them back together sadly) but the above mentioned Gotham Knights (which I dont think suffers that much from the game or tv show given the proper creative team) or even bring back the We Are Robin or Robins title, hell bring back the Shadow of the Bat title and let that be a major thread that they are all under the shadow of the Bat. Dropping Tim back at the Detective Comics story where he "died" and starting his character now from there...it's not like there hasn't been a precedent (*cough* Marvel *cough* skrulls) but it's not the best route for the character. Ditch Fitzmartin, ditch Bernard and give Tim (and the girls along with whomever else) is absolutely the way to go. It needs to be a known, fan friendly creative team though.

[dietrich]

Remember when Tim came out and fans were worried his entire character going forward was going to be his sexuality/romance?

DC took the wrong approach. Tim's title should have focused on the character, crime fighting and occasional dates. He shouldn't have moved in with Bernard, Bernard shouldn't be a regular in this title and shouldn't be heavily focused on the covers.

Expand his personal life beyond this new lover. Bring in his family, his allies, YJ, old school friends from his 90's series.

The reason why a lot of recent attempts at inclusive/diverse characters fail is because comics opt for the Representation 1st, character 2nd. Othering rather the norm.

Diverse characters should get the regular cis white male treatment. Batman comics don't focus on his whiteness and Superman's character isn't all about Krypton.

Fans are also making it all about his sexuality. Every discussion about this title or Tim is just fans critiquing the relationship or complaining about Steph and how she's disrespected or ignored. No **** she's his ex.

Why can't fans just get over how the break up was done and move on. It's done.
So what if Tim seems to be more in love with Bernard than he ever was with Steph? That shouldn't be a thing that dominates every Tim Robin thread.

Yes Tim is Bi.
the new dude might end up being otp, he might be a fling and he might rekindling with Steph. Any and All of that is possible and that's okay. Bi people switch.

Ignorant fans might take issue with him dating a girl in the future and those will be ignored as it well should. Ignorant people are best ignored.

Bi characters should be portrayed as bi not gay.

To wrap up, I just wanted to point that you guys are doing exactly what you feared DC would do.

looking back on this thread I haven't seen one comment about the case Tim and Darcy are solving. I haven't seen comments about the non-ship related interactions we've seen in this series. Like the call back to Tim's Robin fanboy origin when he meets that young kid. That was a nice panel.

DC should dial back on Tim's love life. Focus on sorting out his baffling history, his age, his canon and who he is [besides smart]
What are his goals, why did he go back to Robin and how does he view his future/ the next step.
I feel that fans need to rediscover who Tim Drake is and reminded of why they love Tim.

[Frontier]

Remember when Tim came out and fans were worried his entire character going forward was going to be his sexuality/romance?

DC took the wrong approach. Tim's title should have focused on the character, crime fighting and occasional dates. He shouldn't have moved in with Bernard, Bernard shouldn't be a regular in this title and shouldn't be heavily focused on the covers.

Expand his personal life beyond this new lover. Bring in his family, his allies, YJ, old school friends from his 90's series.

The reason why a lot of recent attempts at inclusive/diverse characters fail is because comics opt for the Representation 1st, character 2nd. Othering rather the norm.

Diverse characters should get the regular cis white male treatment. Batman comics don't focus on his whiteness and Superman's character isn't all about Krypton.

Fans are also making it all about his sexuality. Every discussion about this title or Tim is just fans critiquing the relationship or complaining about Steph and how she's disrespected or ignored. No **** she's his ex.

Why can't fans just get over how the break up was done and move on. It's done.
So what if Tim seems to be more in love with Bernard than he ever was with Steph? That shouldn't be a thing that dominates every Tim Robin thread.

Yes Tim is Bi.
the new dude might end up being otp, he might be a fling and he might rekindling with Steph. Any and All of that is possible and that's okay. Bi people switch.

Ignorant fans might take issue with him dating a girl in the future and those will be ignored as it well should. Ignorant people are best ignored.

Bi characters should be portrayed as bi not gay.

To wrap up, I just wanted to point that you guys are doing exactly what you feared DC would do.

looking back on this thread I haven't seen one comment about the case Tim and Darcy are solving. I haven't seen comments about the non-ship related interactions we've seen in this series. Like the call back to Tim's Robin fanboy origin when he meets that young kid. That was a nice panel.

DC should dial back on Tim's love life. Focus on sorting out his baffling history, his age, his canon and who he is [besides smart]
What are his goals, why did he go back to Robin and how does he view his future/ the next step.
I feel that fans need to rediscover who Tim Drake is and reminded of why they love Tim.

It doesn't sound like Fitzmartin even focused so much on the romance becuase Bernard is still just kind of a token love interest guy Tim talks about how passionately he loves for...nebulous reasons. Compared to all the natural build up and actual work other writers put into Tim's past love interests, especially Steph.

And yeah people still complain about the breakup because it was taking a major and significant relationship and ending it in probably one of the most unsatisfying ways possible and that ultimately just made Tim look bad.

Character relationships are important to a character.

[OBrianTallent]

Remember when Tim came out and fans were worried his entire character going forward was going to be his sexuality/romance?

DC took the wrong approach. Tim's title should have focused on the character, crime fighting and occasional dates. He shouldn't have moved in with Bernard, Bernard shouldn't be a regular in this title and shouldn't be heavily focused on the covers.

Expand his personal life beyond this new lover. Bring in his family, his allies, YJ, old school friends from his 90's series.

The reason why a lot of recent attempts at inclusive/diverse characters fail is because comics opt for the Representation 1st, character 2nd. Othering rather the norm.

Diverse characters should get the regular cis white male treatment. Batman comics don't focus on his whiteness and Superman's character isn't all about Krypton.

Fans are also making it all about his sexuality. Every discussion about this title or Tim is just fans critiquing the relationship or complaining about Steph and how she's disrespected or ignored. No **** she's his ex.

Why can't fans just get over how the break up was done and move on. It's done.
So what if Tim seems to be more in love with Bernard than he ever was with Steph? That shouldn't be a thing that dominates every Tim Robin thread.

Yes Tim is Bi.
the new dude might end up being otp, he might be a fling and he might rekindling with Steph. Any and All of that is possible and that's okay. Bi people switch.

Ignorant fans might take issue with him dating a girl in the future and those will be ignored as it well should. Ignorant people are best ignored.

Bi characters should be portrayed as bi not gay.

To wrap up, I just wanted to point that you guys are doing exactly what you feared DC would do.

looking back on this thread I haven't seen one comment about the case Tim and Darcy are solving. I haven't seen comments about the non-ship related interactions we've seen in this series. Like the call back to Tim's Robin fanboy origin when he meets that young kid. That was a nice panel.

DC should dial back on Tim's love life. Focus on sorting out his baffling history, his age, his canon and who he is [besides smart]
What are his goals, why did he go back to Robin and how does he view his future/ the next step.
I feel that fans need to rediscover who Tim Drake is and reminded of why they love Tim.

I will say that I did not read the entire series nor did I even make it all the way through issue two. The artwork was so bad it was difficult to read especially when combined with the writing. I did however pick up each issue and flip through it to see if anything had ever changed. To be fair, I never realized there was a case because I couldn't get past the panels of Tim going off about how Bernard was his everything and how he completed him or whatever nonsense it was. As for all the focus on the "new relationship" over past relationships...I feel like all I got was a last panel of TIm showing up at Bernie's door going 'oh you asked me out and I think I want to go out with you" and then he was bi. There were no questions, there was no personal or internal debating and Stephanie whom he just broke up with OFF PANEL was jumping for joy with patticakes. Sigh.
But there was an actual story in the series? I completely missed it. It's possible that if the artwork were less....extreme and more mainstream, this might have been somewhat readable. However, the artwork, when combined with the ridiculous story, it just all fell...not even flat, is there a less than flat?
I dont think I have ever seen a creative team so completely and utterly bungle a story that could have been an AMAZING story and that goes all the way back to the editor who hired both the writer and the artists (Ortiz is just as much a flaw on this series as Rossmo is and seriously it's not even their fault. They have extreme styles and the editor decided to put two artists with the most extreme polarizing styles on a book that had a major character development in it.)

[ZuLuLu]

Remember when Tim came out and fans were worried his entire character going forward was going to be his sexuality/romance?

DC took the wrong approach. Tim's title should have focused on the character, crime fighting and occasional dates. He shouldn't have moved in with Bernard, Bernard shouldn't be a regular in this title and shouldn't be heavily focused on the covers.

Expand his personal life beyond this new lover. Bring in his family, his allies, YJ, old school friends from his 90's series.

The reason why a lot of recent attempts at inclusive/diverse characters fail is because comics opt for the Representation 1st, character 2nd. Othering rather the norm.

Diverse characters should get the regular cis white male treatment. Batman comics don't focus on his whiteness and Superman's character isn't all about Krypton.

Fans are also making it all about his sexuality. Every discussion about this title or Tim is just fans critiquing the relationship or complaining about Steph and how she's disrespected or ignored. No **** she's his ex.

Why can't fans just get over how the break up was done and move on. It's done.
So what if Tim seems to be more in love with Bernard than he ever was with Steph? That shouldn't be a thing that dominates every Tim Robin thread.

Yes Tim is Bi.
the new dude might end up being otp, he might be a fling and he might rekindling with Steph. Any and All of that is possible and that's okay. Bi people switch.

Ignorant fans might take issue with him dating a girl in the future and those will be ignored as it well should. Ignorant people are best ignored.

Bi characters should be portrayed as bi not gay.

To wrap up, I just wanted to point that you guys are doing exactly what you feared DC would do.

looking back on this thread I haven't seen one comment about the case Tim and Darcy are solving. I haven't seen comments about the non-ship related interactions we've seen in this series. Like the call back to Tim's Robin fanboy origin when he meets that young kid. That was a nice panel.

DC should dial back on Tim's love life. Focus on sorting out his baffling history, his age, his canon and who he is [besides smart]
What are his goals, why did he go back to Robin and how does he view his future/ the next step.
I feel that fans need to rediscover who Tim Drake is and reminded of why they love Tim.

As someone who actually read all the issues the book didn't not focus on his relationship that much outside of Tim's inner monolouge.

Most of the story was actually focus on the case, and Tim was given a new friend and sidekick in Darcy, but the problem with this it was never explained how Tim and Darcy meet and why does he trust her so much just like his relationship with Bernard there wasn't any on screen built up that would make readers care.

Fitzmartin had some good ideas like having Tim find his own space and the docks was not bad, but the place and characters were undeveloped, however I felt like the landlord and some of the neighbours had potential.

She also mainly focus on Tim's skills as a detective but the case was way too convoluted, the art didn't help here, if the art is complex keep the story simple.

I didn't think it was a bad book but I can see all its problems. The art was always going to be big turn off for a lot of people, and DC knows that Rossmo art has niche appeal, then the mystery didn't have a hook that would keep your attention, and people who wanted Tim's sexuality explored got crumbs.

[dietrich]

As someone who actually read all the issues the book didn't not focus on his relationship that much outside of Tim's inner monolouge.

Most of the story was actually focus on the case, and Tim was given a new friend and sidekick in Darcy, but the problem with this it was never explained how Tim and Darcy meet and why does he trust her so much just like his relationship with Bernard there wasn't any on screen built up that would make readers care.

Fitzmartin had some good ideas like having Tim find his own space and the docks was not bad, but the place and characters were undeveloped, however I felt like the landlord and some of the neighbours had potential.

She also mainly focus on Tim's skills as a detective but the case was way too convoluted, the art didn't help here, if the art is complex keep the story simple.

I didn't think it was a bad book but I can see all its problems. The art was always going to be big turn off for a lot of people, and DC knows that Rossmo art has niche appeal, then the mystery didn't have a hook that would keep your attention, and people who wanted Tim's sexuality explored got crumbs.

Correct but the marketing, the covers and having Bernard in every issue due to the two living together gives off the appearance of a heavy focus on Romance when it isn't. The whole packaging/presentation is Bernard heavy.

The fact that there's a lot more going on in the series and yet ALL the discuss by fans is about the new love interest and the old love interest is the reason why I pointed out the ironic reality that THE FANS are doing exactly what they feared DC would do to Tim. Making it all about who he is dating.

Toning down Bernard's presence, less in your face might rein in fans and allow them to focus on the actual plot. I feel like Bernard is like a red rag. Bringing cameos from Cassie, Bart, Tam, Tim's Police pal, err Kate breaks up issues that feature Bern hence breaking up this ship discuss that's frankly just going round in circles. Repeating the same complaints.

Megan's not a comic writer and you can tell. She's also not much of a sleuth judging by her depiction of Tim's methodology/process.

[Aahz]

Fitzmartin had some good ideas like having Tim find his own space and the docks was not bad, but the place and characters were undeveloped, however I felt like the landlord and some of the neighbours had potential.

Just compare that with the beginning of Dixon's Nightwing run, he actually managed to put at least some memorable and likeable characters into Dick's apartment building, the guys from the Marina are all completely forgettable.

I didn't think it was a bad book but I can see all its problems.

At least when it comes to the art I have a hard time of thinking of any Bat-Book that was worse.

When it comes to the writing there I can think of a hand full that are even worse, but that still doesn't make the writing good.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Correct but the marketing, the covers and having Bernard in every issue due to the two living together gives off the appearance of a heavy focus on Romance when it isn't. The whole packaging/presentation is Bernard heavy.

The fact that there's a lot more going on in the series and yet ALL the discuss by fans is about the new love interest and the old love interest is the reason why I pointed out the ironic reality that THE FANS are doing exactly what they feared DC would do to Tim. Making it all about who he is dating.

Toning down Bernard's presence, less in your face might rein in fans and allow them to focus on the actual plot. I feel like Bernard is like a red rag. Bringing cameos from Cassie, Bart, Tam, Tim's Police pal, err Kate breaks up issues that feature Bern hence breaking up this ship discuss that's frankly just going round in circles. Repeating the same complaints.

Megan's not a comic writer and you can tell. She's also not much of a sleuth judging by her depiction of Tim's methodology/process.

Where do you think Tim's methodology/process falls flat?

[HsssH]

I disagree, they have a more mature relationship, but it's an important element to Superman.
That doesn't change that romance - and relationships - are an important part of virtually every comic series.

There is probably another term for what exactly I mean, but I'm not aware of it sadly. To me there is a huge difference between what we see in books like recent Robin and majority of Clark's books.

[Felipe Silveira]

There is no comparison. Clark doesn't need to talk all the time that he needs to be with Lois, and if he did, we know why. In Robin, who is Bernard?

[ZuLuLu]

Correct but the marketing, the covers and having Bernard in every issue due to the two living together gives off the appearance of a heavy focus on Romance when it isn't. The whole packaging/presentation is Bernard heavy.

Tim and Bernard were not living together up until issue 6 Tim didn't even know if Bernard considered them boyfriends. These are the first 5 covers I don't think anyone looking at these would think romance.

The fact that there's a lot more going on in the series and yet ALL the discuss by fans is about the new love interest and the old love interest is the reason why I pointed out the ironic reality that THE FANS are doing exactly what they feared DC would do to Tim. Making it all about who he is dating.

While there will also be people focused on their ship, I've seen people who were actually reading the book talk about the story, like how the missed clues that show how the villain was able to know everything Robin was up to.

Toning down Bernard's presence, less in your face might rein in fans and allow them to focus on the actual plot. I feel like Bernard is like a red rag. Bringing cameos from Cassie, Bart, Tam, Tim's Police pal, err Kate breaks up issues that feature Bern hence breaking up this ship discuss that's frankly just going round in circles. Repeating the same complaints.

If you are going to develop a character not having the in the book is not going to help and as I said outside of Tim thinking about him Bernard was not in the book that much. Generally, Bernard was featured in about 5-10 pages.

Cass, Steph, and Dick have all shown up in the book so far. And while I don't have a problem with the Young Justice cast showing up as cameos now and again I not reading a Robin book for them the same way I not reading a Nightwing book for the Titans.

Megan's not a comic writer and you can tell. She's also not much of a sleuth judging by her depiction of Tim's methodology/process.

This we can agree on, she had some good ideas but the overall execution was subpar. That said her writing here was much better than Young Justice's.

I think this arc should have been shorter by issue three the plot became somewhat repetitive, and she needs to tone down a little bit on her narrations they tend to read a little bit overdramatic.

That said with more approachable art this book would have at least lasted as long as Batgirls or I Am Batman.

[Felipe Silveira]

These covers are gigantic "Do not buy"

[GreyFox]

If Tim is supposed to be Bi, maybe the only way to really 'make it obvious' it to have a three-way.

Bring back Steph, but as part of a poly relationship. Bernard may have to be replaced with someone less boring, but still male.

Have new stories that do not treat Young Justice and Tim's past with contempt, under a new writer. Come up with a new direction for Tim's career as a Vigilante.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

People say Bernard and Tim are now living together but if I recall I don't think so and issue 6 doesn't seem to imply anything as well

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I don't know about you but it doesn't look like Meghan will be writing for Tim in the near future.

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