Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Appreciation 2023

[SixSpeedSamurai]

Maybe, settled down with Steph, a couple of kids, and works as a private eye?

That would not work without aging Jason in my opinion.

[Digifiend]

Honestly, I would much prefer Tim gets back with Stephanie.

Despite what Fitzmartin has written lately, I found their relationship to be "cute".

Especially Tim laughing at her weird laugh, to me, they were written with great chemistry.

The logic for them breaking up in the first place didn't make sense. Steph was perfect in every way... except for her being female? Then there's no reason for someone who's only bisexual, not homosexual, to dump her!

Well, it's not like some of the other bi characters at DC don't have main love interests of the opposite sex.

I have a hard time seeing a love interest who only seems to exist for the sake of having Tim date a guy supplanting Steph (especially when it seems like that's all he's really there for and to get mentioned or briefly appear in media to give Tim a gay romance). Maybe if they used Superboy but it doesn't seem like DC allowed Fitzmartin to bite that bullet. Maybe Bunker? But I doubt anyone can beat the history and development Steph got.

Conversely they're pretty much depicting him like he's fully gay right now.

Which would probably be more reasonable if Bernard felt like an actual, fleshed out, and memorable character and not someone who seems to just exist so Tim can date a guy which I think is part of the problem.

Very much this, Fitzmartin writes Tim as just gay, not bi. And Bernard is just bland. No personality, and worse, he's a liability who's been captured by the baddies at least once. Jon Kent doesn't have that worry with his boyfriend Jay, who has phasing powers. Tim likewise needs a partner who can handle themselves in a fight. Like Steph! Conner would work but for two problems - he's not gay (he's actually quite a shameless flirt with the ladies), and I don't think the Bat office wants any of the Robins to have non-Bat family superhero partners - which is why they push Dick/Babs nowadays instead of having Nightwing with Starfire.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

The logic for them breaking up in the first place didn't make sense. Steph was perfect in every way... except for her being female? Then there's no reason for someone who's only bisexual, not homosexual, to dump her!

Very much this, Fitzmartin writes Tim as just gay, not bi. And Bernard is just bland. No personality, and worse, he's a liability who's been captured by the baddies at least once. Jon Kent doesn't have that worry with his boyfriend Jay, who has phasing powers. Tim likewise needs a partner who can handle themselves in a fight. Like Steph! Conner would work but for two problems - he's not gay (he's actually quite a shameless flirt with the ladies), and I don't think the Bat office wants any of the Robins to have non-Bat family superhero partners - which is why they push Dick/Babs nowadays instead of having Nightwing with Starfire.

Tim's actions don't support the idea he found her "perfect" as he gave her little to no thought throughout UL, it took Steph being in danger and him meeting her by accident to properly talk with her issue 1 of his solo describing Bernard as showing that there is more than what he 'settled for' and helps define himself outside of the Batfam when Step did that and in DC YJ when evil Batman implies Steph is shallow and only likes Tim for his hero identity he doesn't defend her.

Also the speed in which Tim falls for Bernard in universe and out of universe and doing more romantic things with him early on than he did with Steph along with him being pushed as the "one" at this speed as well makes his entire relationship with Steph look like a joke.

I believe that given how poorly Steph was treated throughout Urban Legends and how their entire relationship was dismissed, had it not been for the backlash for her treatment, she would have just been ignored entirely.

[Aahz]

Tim likewise needs a partner who can handle themselves in a fight.

The wired thing is, in the Urban Legends story he was actually fighting along side Tim (even if I'm not sure how he was able to do that) but in the solo series he is really completely useless.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

The wired thing is, in the Urban Legends story he was actually fighting along side Tim (even if I'm not sure how he was able to do that) but in the solo series he is really completely useless.

Answer: He's a mary sue. He's too perfect. Like he can fight at Tim's level for uh reasons and so quickly, he's majoring in physics and biology and is a good chef, everyone seems to like him in Tim's circle especially Steph (ugh) and Tim so into him despite things being so quick.

[ChangingStation]

While I hesitate to call any character a Mary sue, especially given how overused that term is, I will say that Bernard has been poorly implemented and badly sold enough that those qualities feel more forced.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

While I hesitate to call any character a Mary sue, especially given how overused that term is, I will say that Bernard has been poorly implemented and badly sold enough that those qualities feel more forced.

It is forced as none of them were even hinted at back in the Robin series. Hell in the Robin series he was portrayed as a joke and the narrative even mocked him and was supposed to make it clear he wasn't to be taken seriously by anyone

[The Lucky One]

The logic for them breaking up in the first place didn't make sense. Steph was perfect in every way... except for her being female? Then there's no reason for someone who's only bisexual, not homosexual, to dump her!

Very much this, Fitzmartin writes Tim as just gay, not bi. And Bernard is just bland. No personality, and worse, he's a liability who's been captured by the baddies at least once.

Look, far be it from me to defend Bernard, but Steph was kidnapped in her third appearance; it happens to superhero supporting characters. Lois Lane’s as tough as they come and she gets kidnapped once a year, minimum.

What made people love Stephanie is that she had tons of personality, right from the start. She was brash and passionate and funny and gave zero effs what anyone thought, but also needed Tim to be her conscience and balance out her anger. That’s why she was a breakout character, why she’s the other half of Tim’s OTP and eventually got her own title.

But… she also only appeared about once a year for those first few years. Absence makes the heart et cetera. Bernard may or may not last, but if DC decides to try again with another boyfriend at some point, they’d be well served to 1) give him a personality, and 2) adopt a “less is more” approach to their early appearances.

D692B2F0-DD08-4E00-B4DC-87A88040C848.jpg

[WebLurker]

The logic for them breaking up in the first place didn't make sense. Steph was perfect in every way... except for her being female? Then there's no reason for someone who's only bisexual, not homosexual, to dump her!

While Tim/Steph fans may have never liked it (speaking as a Spider-Man/Mary Jane fan, I do get it), I think their breakup could've been been a logical and well-written one if the people involved hadn't decided just to cut to the chase (heck, even structuring the story so that we start with them split and Tim with Bernard and using flashbacks to fill in the gaps could've worked). Even a solid relationship can fall apart, even if the couple in question was committed to making things work.

My "re-write the breakup "scenario (esp. if it had been planned that far in advance that Steph was going to be in the Batgirls series while Tim had his solo) would be to show them getting pulled in different directions. Tim's solo shows him wanting distance from the Bat-Family, have him making plans to go do his own thing, wanting Steph to join him at the houseboat as his partner (in love and crime). However, Steph, after learning that her parallel universe variant got to be given the honor of being a Batgirl, is realizing that she wants to earn that and solidify her place in the Bat-Family, esp. since she's starting teaming up with Cass as a dual Batgirl act and working directly with Barbara (mentor and mother figure neither of them really had), something that makes her really happy. Seed it early on and show that they're starting to realize that they want very different things and, as much as they want the other to go with them, they're going to be unhappy if they leave/stay.

Could go either way if the breakup is amicable or messy, or both. For a more complicated scenario, maybe Tim realizes that Steph will follow him in the end, as miserable as it will make her living on that boat she doesn't like and being separated from the thing she badly wanted, so he breaks things off partially for her sake. Could even weave his own need for self-discovery by having him realize that Steph knows who she is and what she wants, while, beyond a vague need for change, he really doesn't know where he's going, so also needs the space to figure himself out. Sadly, despite his honorable intentions and trying to do it right, all he succeeds in doing is breaking Steph's heart and, after a vicious argument, he retreats or is shown the door with no real closure regarding the breakup and him not really sure how their relationship went from being good to falling apart in front of them. From there, you could have him trying to reassess his life, and, after reconnecting with Bernard, realizing that he's bisexual and wants to date him (he's feeling lonely, wants to explore this new facet, etc.). For Steph, you could either have her take a break from dating and just focusing on her goals and sisterly friendships or have her try dating again as chance allows. Writer's choice if you have them ever clearing the air between them or it remaining a sore point going forward.

Might not be the most elegant scenario (might be tricky to explain why Steph couldn't split her time between Tim and Cass and Barbara) but it is rooted in the characters, it doesn't demonize one or the other in how things went wrong, and it's not impossible that Tim and Steph could reconcile if the Powers That Be wanted them to be a couple again.

[Frontier]

While Tim/Steph fans may have never liked it (speaking as a Spider-Man/Mary Jane fan, I do get it), I think their breakup could've been been a logical and well-written one if the people involved hadn't decided just to cut to the chase (heck, even structuring the story so that we start with them split and Tim with Bernard and using flashbacks to fill in the gaps could've worked). Even a solid relationship can fall apart, even if the couple in question was committed to making things work.

My "re-write the breakup "scenario (esp. if it had been planned that far in advance that Steph was going to be in the Batgirls series while Tim had his solo) would be to show them getting pulled in different directions. Tim's solo shows him wanting distance from the Bat-Family, have him making plans to go do his own thing, wanting Steph to join him at the houseboat as his partner (in love and crime). However, Steph, after learning that her parallel universe variant got to be given the honor of being a Batgirl, is realizing that she wants to earn that and solidify her place in the Bat-Family, esp. since she's starting teaming up with Cass as a dual Batgirl act and working directly with Barbara (mentor and mother figure neither of them really had), something that makes her really happy. Seed it early on and show that they're starting to realize that they want very different things and, as much as they want the other to go with them, they're going to be unhappy if they leave/stay.

Could go either way if the breakup is amicable or messy, or both. For a more complicated scenario, maybe Tim realizes that Steph will follow him in the end, as miserable as it will make her living on that boat she doesn't like and being separated from the thing she badly wanted, so he breaks things off partially for her sake. Could even weave his own need for self-discovery by having him realize that Steph knows who she is and what she wants, while, beyond a vague need for change, he really doesn't know where he's going, so also needs the space to figure himself out. Sadly, despite his honorable intentions and trying to do it right, all he succeeds in doing is breaking Steph's heart and, after a vicious argument, he retreats or is shown the door with no real closure regarding the breakup and him not really sure how their relationship went from being good to falling apart in front of them. From there, you could have him trying to reassess his life, and, after reconnecting with Bernard, realizing that he's bisexual and wants to date him (he's feeling lonely, wants to explore this new facet, etc.). For Steph, you could either have her take a break from dating and just focusing on her goals and sisterly friendships or have her try dating again as chance allows. Writer's choice if you have them ever clearing the air between them or it remaining a sore point going forward.

Might not be the most elegant scenario (might be tricky to explain why Steph couldn't split her time between Tim and Cass and Barbara) but it is rooted in the characters, it doesn't demonize one or the other in how things went wrong, and it's not impossible that Tim and Steph could reconcile if the Powers That Be wanted them to be a couple again.

One way or another I think one of the big sticking points for the current direction was just how bad the breakup and subsequent fallout happened.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

DC has tried to sink Tim/Steph twice via her death and universal erasure and both times it didn't work and just made people angry. Why did they think a breakup like the one we got would be accepted?

[Rac7d*]

Tim Drake is “bisexual”
That is his defining trait now his sexuality

https://twitter.com/dcofficial/statu...jJ3z6TXVzl8ksw

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Tim Drake is “bisexual”
That is his defining trait now his sexuality

https://twitter.com/dcofficial/statu...jJ3z6TXVzl8ksw

Oh no..........they are doing exactly what I feared. C'mon, he's more than that. This is cringey and straight out of tumblr.

[staptik777]

Tim Drake is “bisexual”
That is his defining trait now his sexuality

https://twitter.com/dcofficial/statu...jJ3z6TXVzl8ksw

[WebLurker]

Tim Drake is “bisexual”
That is his defining trait now his sexuality

https://twitter.com/dcofficial/statu...jJ3z6TXVzl8ksw

Well, it's a choice, to be sure. Guess that supports the theory that making him LGBTQ was, at least in part, to find a thing for him after Damien took over his slot as "the main Robin."