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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Arguably the biggest formula difference was simply how frequently both Yost and Nicieza had him leave Gotham by himself and engage in international intrigue and conflict, but another one (especially under Niceiza) was making his MO become a sort of proactive chess-mastering of different supervillain groups and their logistical support.

    None of that is foreign to the rest of the Batfamily, mind you… but the frequency of it, and especially Tim going out and trying to find weaknesses in multiple organizations before they could strike more than three or more times in two years was different from Damian and Dick doing more conventional, react-to-a-crime storytelling at the time, which the the same basic formula most Batman-and-affiliate stories use.

    I just feel that making the formula for each arc and issue start with “Tim has a scheme to maneuver an opponent into a place of vulnerability or to steal away a criminal resource” is a significant niche not shared by others at the time,

    Do you think this niche could have stayed even in new 52 with Jason doing his own world travelling/outlaws thing or Jason running the outlaws. Also do you think it stood out from Batman INC given Batman Inc also involved doing a lot of world travelling as well.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOCTPHOENIX View Post
    Also do you think it stood out from Batman INC given Batman Inc also involved doing a lot of world travelling as well.
    I think they could have just done ith Tim what they did with Luke Fox in his first series, and have him be the Batfamily member who is involved with Batman Inc.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I think they could have just done ith Tim what they did with Luke Fox in his first series, and have him be the Batfamily member who is involved with Batman Inc.

    I read somewhere they were setting him up to the leader of Batman Inc or Outsiders.

  4. #64
    Mighty Member ayanestar's Avatar
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    It's too late for Tim to be Robin again. He had already made the first step towards his own identity, but then the reboot happened. DC should have thought about a new direction and name for him when the whole New 52 thing happened, but instead they erased all of his personality. Now he is the token gay Robin, other media is already adapting this and just like all bisexual characters these days, he will be stuck with a boyfriend from now on otherwise DC will just be cursed at and called homophobic. Anyway, this year will be interesting, they will either find a new direction for Tim or he will go back to doing nothing.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayanestar View Post
    It's too late for Tim to be Robin again. He had already made the first step towards his own identity, but then the reboot happened. DC should have thought about a new direction and name for him when the whole New 52 thing happened, but instead they erased all of his personality. Now he is the token gay Robin, other media is already adapting this and just like all bisexual characters these days, he will be stuck with a boyfriend from now on otherwise DC will just be cursed at and called homophobic. Anyway, this year will be interesting, they will either find a new direction for Tim or he will go back to doing nothing.
    Only twitter/tumblr will be idiotic to do that.

    And if DC does do that won't people accusse them of biphobia?

  6. #66
    Mighty Member ayanestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOCTPHOENIX View Post
    Only twitter/tumblr will be idiotic to do that.

    And if DC does do that won't people accusse them of biphobia?
    That's the tragic thing, those idiots who scream for equality, inclusivity etc. often are biphobic themselves, some without even realising it. This is why I often stay away from places like twitter and tumblr because I never feel welcome there lmao.

  7. #67
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayanestar View Post
    That's the tragic thing, those idiots who scream for equality, inclusivity etc. often are biphobic themselves, some without even realising it. This is why I often stay away from places like twitter and tumblr because I never feel welcome there lmao.
    There are other bi characters who are mostly or always only in opposite sex relationships, like Catwoman and Wonder Woman.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    There are other bi characters who are mostly or always only in opposite sex relationships, like Catwoman and Wonder Woman.
    True. It's interesting there aren't so many complaints about these cases.

    Curiously, fandoms tend to make more noise when a bi male character starts dating women, especially if the male characters are young and good looking.

  9. #69
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    True. It's interesting there aren't so many complaints about these cases.

    Curiously, fandoms tend to make more noise when a bi male character starts dating women, especially if the male characters are young and good looking.
    Because their OTPs are already decided so no one really argues against it.
    Last edited by Triniking1234; 01-05-2023 at 08:26 AM.
    "Cable was right!"

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOCTPHOENIX View Post
    Do you think this niche could have stayed even in new 52 with Jason doing his own world travelling/outlaws thing or Jason running the outlaws. Also do you think it stood out from Batman INC given Batman Inc also involved doing a lot of world travelling as well.
    I think that, for whatever reason, he was still doing fine with the first half of Batman Inc running before the New 52, and that Jason and the Outlaws were enough of a ragtag group of ne’er-do-wells that it wouldn’t have impeded Tim either.

    Some of that, I believe, was down to writing style and story construction - Tim tends to be the most preferred Robin for more character-driven, monologue-heavy “naturalistic” Batman storytelling (think Chuck Dixon, Paul Dini, Denny On’Neil), while Grant Morrison’s style is much less naturalistic and tends to be more zany and theatrical for characterization, and Scott Lobdell is a pretty heavy 90’s throwback with Jason that’s loud and hot-blooded/high-strung/obnoxious.

    Lobdell couldn’t write Tim to save his life, nor the rest of the Titans characters he got - I tend to think that the smarter move from DC would have been to take Fabian Nicieza off the Legion book they gave him, and let him write the New 52 Teen Titans book, and leave Lobdell on RHATO.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayanestar View Post
    That's the tragic thing, those idiots who scream for equality, inclusivity etc. often are biphobic themselves, some without even realising it. This is why I often stay away from places like twitter and tumblr because I never feel welcome there lmao.
    Do you think the current writing of Tim is leaning into that angle as there seems to be an undermining of his relationships with women.

  12. #72
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KyleWayne View Post
    He wouldnÂ’t be moving on to something better, he would be moving on to a downgraded status. He would no longer have the iconic role of Robin. He would be a lesser, diminished character. Again I remind you of Drake and Red Robin. Ohhhh that ugly Red Robin costume. I will never get over that.

    Dick becoming Nightwing was different because he was the OG Robin and needed to step aside for Jason.

    Being Robin is what makes Tim great.
    Right here is the big problem.

    Are you saying that tim is only great because of Robin.

    A mantle that was created and established by someone else. A mantle that's been built up for decades by other[s], that was already great before Tim was conceptualised.

    Don't you see how that devalues the character of Tim?

    I fear it's this line of thought that has prevented Tim from successfully growing and moving on.

    This is why all other directions they've tried to stir the character in since Damian arrived failed/faced resistance.

    Yes Tim was created to be Robin but that doesn't mean he can't be more than that. That doesn't mean the character can't grow beyond it's initial purpose.

    Dick Grayson was also created to be just Robin and look how far the character has come.

    Yes Robin is an Iconic mantle but why you would assume that moving on from Robin is a downgrade when every other male Robin who has graduated the role has gone on to establish themselves under hero ids that are today more popular than Robin is baffling.

    Again smacks of devaluing Tim drake as a character/not having confidence that Tim as a character has what it takes to make it with out Robin.

    Dick Grayson made it. Jason Todd made it. The only thing stopping Tim is that a large number of fans and TPTB don't seem to have faith that he can make it.

    They seem to think that Being Robin is what makes Tim Drake great

    FYI The statement " because he was the OG Robin and had to make way for Jason" makes zero sense.

    It's pretty much the same thing except that in Dick's case it was riskier. An up hill battle since it was unprecedented and Dick was giving up a mantle he created and established.

    Tim was great as Robin once upon a time but that wasn't what made him great.

    I enjoyed Tim more in his Red Robin run.
    Last edited by dietrich; 01-05-2023 at 08:29 AM.

  13. #73
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    True. It's interesting there aren't so many complaints about these cases.

    Curiously, fandoms tend to make more noise when a bi male character starts dating women, especially if the male characters are young and good looking.
    Thinking about that, I do see one important difference, and that's that DC has good representation for lesbians and bi women dating other women. We have Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn, both very bi but with a lot of focus on their relationship, and Batwoman who is gay and has had an active love life.
    DC really only has Midnighter and Apollo, who've gone through long periods where they aren't used much. Obsidian's boyfriend is barely ever seen, Alan Scott has only just come out recently. The previous Earth 2 Alan's boyfriend died in his first appearance. Bunker was what people say to do, create a new character, but a few years later he's nearly disappeared.
    I think if people are more defensive about wanting to see relationships with two men it's because they're underrepresented. Until Jon and Tim came out queer male representation at DC was pretty poor. Even now with Jon and Tim out I don't think their relationships are all that great because their love interests aren't interesting characters on their own right. While characters like Steve Trevor, Wonder Woman or more obviously Selina Kyle have fan bases and can carry the odd one shot or mini (or with Selina an ongoing title) I can't see Jay or Bernard being able to do that.

  14. #74
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    Thinking about that, I do see one important difference, and that's that DC has good representation for lesbians and bi women dating other women. We have Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn, both very bi but with a lot of focus on their relationship, and Batwoman who is gay and has had an active love life.
    DC really only has Midnighter and Apollo, who've gone through long periods where they aren't used much. Obsidian's boyfriend is barely ever seen, Alan Scott has only just come out recently. The previous Earth 2 Alan's boyfriend died in his first appearance. Bunker was what people say to do, create a new character, but a few years later he's nearly disappeared.
    I think if people are more defensive about wanting to see relationships with two men it's because they're underrepresented. Until Jon and Tim came out queer male representation at DC was pretty poor. Even now with Jon and Tim out I don't think their relationships are all that great because their love interests aren't interesting characters on their own right. While characters like Steve Trevor, Wonder Woman or more obviously Selina Kyle have fan bases and can carry the odd one shot or mini (or with Selina an ongoing title) I can't see Jay or Bernard being able to do that.
    That's not remotely true. Dc has always had as many male LGbtQ heroes as female.

    Aqualad, Constantine, Ray, Danny Street, Starman, Ozymandias, Piped Piper, Extrano, Jericho just to name a few.

  15. #75
    Mighty Member ayanestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    There are other bi characters who are mostly or always only in opposite sex relationships, like Catwoman and Wonder Woman.
    That is actually not true, depending on where you look, you will find many people criticizing DC for making certain characters bisexual but never giving them a relevant partner of the same sex, however because their most popular relationship is with someone of the opposite gender, you won't find fans complaining about it. In fact, casual fans aren't even aware these characters are bisexual unlike with Constantine, where even casuals are aware of his sexuality. In my opinion, not every bisexual character has to be in a meaningful relationship with both genders because there are many of us that prefer one gender over the other, but when a big company like DC makes one of their most popular characters bisexual, you kind of hope to see it in some way and not just in a throw away comment, if it's mentioned at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by NOCTPHOENIX View Post
    Do you think the current writing of Tim is leaning into that angle as there seems to be an undermining of his relationships with women.
    It definitely is, and it's not a surprise because the only reason DC made him bisexual is to make him stand out from the other Robins, so of course they would fast-forward to him having a "meaningful" relationship with someone of the same gender. It's why I disliked his coming-out, it was lazy, and no effort was put into it. I don't think we will never see him with a woman in comics again, but I highly doubt he will have a long-lasting relationship with one ever again. The Titans and the webtoon (as far as I'm aware of) have already set him up with his boyfriend. Also, don't get me wrong, as someone who is bisexual myself, I'm always open to more bi characters, but I absolutely despise it when I can tell how little effort was put into it, which is why I still hope Tim will get a proper writer and can reboot his whole coming-out.

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