Should Heracles remain a villain past the Amazons' origin story?

[Agent Z]

Since this conversation sort of took over the Ideal Wonder Family Thread, I thought it would be better to make a thread to discuss it.

As established by Marston and reinforced by Perez, the Amazons' origin story involves them being enslaved by Heracles, which is either the sole reason for their isolation or the final straw that leads to them pulling away from the rest of the world. Some writers have depicted Heracles as being redeemed for this while others stuck with him being a villain.

Should Heracles be an antagonist past the Amazons' origin story or should he be allowed to be redeemed?

[SiegePerilous02]

Yes. I think the combo of him and Zeus work better as recurring representations of evil patriarchy than Ares does.

[marhawkman]

Yes. I think the combo of him and Zeus work better as recurring representations of evil patriarchy than Ares does.

Looking at it from a perspective of the old myths(and intentionally ignoring TV portrayals), stories involving Hercules tended to focus on him using his powers for his own selfish pursuits. the famous labors.... were a punishment. his part in the Odyssey? He got abandoned on a remote island because he'd been trying to fight the others.... I'm not sure he ever did anything unambiguously heroic at all.

But as for patriarchy? Nah. See, he represented chaos more than order. He only supported established regimes if he had a specific reason to... otherwise he's just do his own thing... which might mean deposing the local rulers.

[SiegePerilous02]

Looking at it from a perspective of the old myths(and intentionally ignoring TV portrayals), stories involving Hercules tended to focus on him using his powers for his own selfish pursuits. the famous labors.... were a punishment. his part in the Odyssey? He got abandoned on a remote island because he'd been trying to fight the others.... I'm not sure he ever did anything unambiguously heroic at all.

But as for patriarchy? Nah. See, he represented chaos more than order. He only supported established regimes if he had a specific reason to... otherwise he's just do his own thing... which might mean deposing the local rulers.

There are different faces to patriarchy though.

Hercules as a villain definitely represents the "toxic masculinity" part, and normalizing putting women in their place

[Alpha]

Yes. I think the combo of him and Zeus work better as recurring representations of evil patriarchy than Ares does.

I really don't understand why people here are so lenient on Ares as a character. If Diana is supposed to be fighting for peace (which isn't the theme I care the most about but you guys do) then she needs someone that intensely defends the idea of violence, agression, and conquest. Ares should be more intensely destructive and oppressive, not less.

[SiegePerilous02]

I really don't understand why people here are so lenient on Ares as a character. If Diana is supposed to be fighting for peace (which isn't the theme I care the most about but you guys do) then she needs someone that intensely defends the idea of violence, agression, and conquest. Ares should be more intensely destructive and oppressive, not less.

Ares in the Greek myths was the father of the Amazons, and notably the only one who didn't rape anybody (despite being the "bad one"). And he was more loyal to his mother than father.

The WW mythos has also not gotten much mileage out of Ares as a straight villain past the origin story anyway. He should still be a recurring threat, but he works better as a gray one, while Zeus and Hercules function better as more unpleasant antagonists.

[marhawkman]

There are different faces to patriarchy though.

Hercules as a villain definitely represents the "toxic masculinity" part,

Yeah anyone who POed him might end up like the Nemean Lion.

and normalizing putting women in their place

In one specific incident, yes, in general? nah. the thing with the Amazons was one of his labors, not a habit.

[Agent Z]

I really don't understand why people here are so lenient on Ares as a character. If Diana is supposed to be fighting for peace (which isn't the theme I care the most about but you guys do) then she needs someone that intensely defends the idea of violence, agression, and conquest. Ares should be more intensely destructive and oppressive, not less.

Who's being lenient on Ares? No one is saying you're being lenient on Zeus who is a far worse person.

[Perseus]

Yeah anyone who POed him might end up like the Nemean Lion.
In one specific incident, yes, in general? nah. the thing with the Amazons was one of his labors, not a habit.

He raped a priestess of Athena and subjugated cities, one of which because he was made to do 'woman's work'; I promise you he represents many forms of toxic masculinity and patriarchal rule.

[Perseus]

I really don't understand why people here are so lenient on Ares as a character. If Diana is supposed to be fighting for peace (which isn't the theme I care the most about but you guys do) then she needs someone that intensely defends the idea of violence, agression, and conquest. Ares should be more intensely destructive and oppressive, not less.

Bland golden age villain Ares doesn't work, we've tasted Rucka's work on Ares and that's what stuck.

[Alpha]

Ares in the Greek myths was the father of the Amazons, and notably the only one who didn't rape anybody (despite being the "bad one"). And he was more loyal to his mother than father.

I really don't see why that matters.
He was the god of slaughter and brutality.

The WW mythos has also not gotten much mileage out of Ares as a straight villain past the origin story anyway. He should still be a recurring threat, but he works better as a gray one, while Zeus and Hercules function better as more unpleasant antagonists.

That's certainly not true of Ares / Mars pre Crisis. He was used immensely.

The WW mythos hasn't gotten much mileage out of any other villain really. The fall of Vanessa Kapatellis is the closest thing but there isn't one single villain to blame for that. Maybe Circe.

I don't see why Ares is more useful as a gray character instead of the villain of human versus human calamities

[Alpha]

Bland golden age villain Ares doesn't work, we've tasted Rucka's work on Ares and that's what stuck.

Which is a waste of the concept of war as this unstoppable parasite on the world.

Also, Hercules and Zeus as villains doesn't mean Ares can't be a villain.

[Agent Z]

I really don't see why that matters.
He was the god of slaughter and brutality.

He was also a laughable paper tiger who could fold like a deck of cards, constantly losing fights.

Zeus meanwhile was a misogynistic rapist and had more than enough power to be feared.

That's certainly not true of Ares / Mars pre Crisis. He was used immensely.

All the more reason to give someone else a shot.

I don't see why Ares is more useful as a gray character instead of the villain of human versus human calamities

Because war sometimes is a gray area. Misogyny, abuse and rape are not, and Zeus is immensely guilty of all three.

[Alpha]

He was also a laughable paper tiger who could fold like a deck of cards, constantly losing fights.

He was litrrally worshipped as a god of Slaughter and brutality

Zeus meanwhile was a misogynistic rapist and had more than enough power to be feared.

That's an argument for making Zeus a villain, it's not an argument for making Ares a gret character.

All the more reason to give someone else a shot.

he was saying we didn't get much mileage out of Ares / Mars. And by your logic, Circe and Cheetah should aldo be ignored.

Because war sometimes is a gray area.

Is that what Diana stands for? That War is a grey area? I thiught one of the main themes of her story was that we need peace. What villain represents war as an unstoppable plague on mankind than a god worship for slaughter and brutality? In fact, what villain makes war seem inevitable?

Misogyny, abuse and rape are not, and Zeus is immensely guilty of all three.

Abuse isn't a gray area? Have you lived in the real world? Abuse is so often hard to evaluate, and the psichology behind it so complex and debatable. And that wasn't an argument for Ares not to be a relentless and catastrophic villain.

[Nyssane]

I think most people would agree all abuse is bad whereas war is mostly bad but sometimes necessary. Abuse is never necessary. Ever.