Wonder Family - Who Are Your Ideal Members?

[SiegePerilous02]

Why overcomplicate it? Just make her slightly stronger than Shazam. "Stronger than Hercules" is her whole thing (and has actual thematic significance) and he's got advantages she doesn't have with the lightning powers and more consistent durability.

Much like with Superman and Wonder Woman though, Captain Marvel was designed to be the strongest around, which is why arguments could be made for all three of them to be in their own universe instead of a shared superhero universe. Putting him on Earth-5/S and giving him a different Hercules helps with them not stepping on each others toes (Mary similarly is meant to get Supergirl-level strength from Hippolyta, and Diana's mom is not that powerful).

WW fans don't like to make concessions on her strength level (not without reason), so it doesn't seem fair to ask the same of the Marvel family.

[Mel Dyer]

I'm ok with leaving Hercules as a villain who contributed nothing to Diana, and is weaker than her. The strength should come from Demeter, and Hercules and his gross dad should be shining examples of the toxic masculinity Diana, the Amazons and her male allies stand against. We have Superman as her friend/ally who is a better man than Hercules by every metric, a (carefully and sparingly done) guest spot where he helps the Amazons would be the only showcase we need for such an ally. pointing out how the WW Hercules is a creep who should be regarded as a villain isn't misandry.

Billy should be on his own Earth, and the totemic spell that grants Captain Marvel his strength should draw from a different Hercules to explain why Billy is as strong as Diana, while she is stronger than the Villainous Hercules on her Earth

The problem with that is, when we exclusively hold men accountable for their toxic masculinity, we run the risk of consigning women to a toxic femininity, ..in which free women are condescended to with lowered standards, no accountability, no respect and the consequent loss of freedom. You can't indulge Circe, Cheetah and Harley with such a comparatively wide moral berth, ..while relegating characters like Orion, Zeus and Hercules to a one-strike-you're-out standard. All that does is perpetuate antiquated notions that women can't be taken seriously or trusted with power.

However, if we follow George Perez's thinking...a Wonderverse where Hercules AND Cheetah can, after being evil or destructive, be transformed by WW's inspiring good and moved to follow her lead, we have a consistent example of Wonder Woman's greatest power...

Through it, respect.

My WW family list reflects that standard. Witcher's speculation about it is short-sighted, at best.

"Hippolyta's rapist..."? Would that be back-stabbing, Artemis-murdering, traitor to women Hippolyta ..or sailor-raping, mass murderess, child-abandoning Hippolyta? Or do we just stick her back on a pedestal and look the other way, because she's a woman? What part of any of that BS is Wonder Woman holding up for?

You just can't bend all the rules and lower the all the bars, when it comes to supervillainesses, because they're women - then, switch it all around for supervillains, ..just to keep the bad men - at this point, that's ALL of us - out of the Amazon tree house.

Real-life man fans, good guys, are here and calling fake feminists on their rubbish. The selection of characters on my list reflects that.

This 'why am I persecuted' attitude of yours is so funny to me. I didn't say one single thing about traditionally masculine men, where they stood in relation to the wonder mythos, or anything about fans enjoying male characters in her world.

Herakles is not this ideal male figure you think he is, that's the whole message of the amazon's story and it just goes right over your head. His redemption was poorly handled and it's probably one of the only universal complaints about Perez's run. And he hasn't been responsible for Diana's strength since that page was printed.

You have such an imaginative mind, you constantly write paragraphs in posts mixing your own head canons in other threads anyway, why are you so dead set on having this character where he shouldn't be? You can't make your own? You can't think of any other masculine men, whatever your definition of 'traditional masculinity' is, for Diana to call an ally?

What I think of Hercules and his place in the Wonder mythos, on this list or ANY list is entirely my business and doesn't require your approval or any consideration of your narrow, anti-male, anti-masculine ideas of what's socially acceptable.

There's no universal criticism of George Perez or WOGs for their redemption of Hercules. There's no archive of myriad discussions on this topic - just you being a misandrist, with no basis for questioning why Hercules is my list. He's on my list, because I put him there. Is that toxically masculine enough for you?

You don't understand something you read in my post. Boohu. Too bad. Read something else.

You take a moral stand on Hercules deserving to be on an ideal WW family list, but back it up with nothing. Be consistent in your reasoning - acknowledge that you aren't or can't be even-handed, comparing villains and villainesses...that you favor one over the other ..and why - if you want your point respected in an honest discussion.

I posted MY list. No apologies. Done. Entertain me by chatting about it for days.

The rest of us will have fun, musing about wanting to see more of the Wonder family in action together, in the comic.

[Perseus]

The problem with that is, when we exclusively hold men accountable for their toxic masculinity, we run the risk of consigning women to a toxic femininity, ..in which free women are condescended to with lowered standards, no accountability, no respect and the consequent loss of freedom. You can't indulge Circe, Cheetah and Harley with such a comparatively wide moral berth, ..while relegating characters like Orion, Zeus and Hercules to a one-strike-you're-out standard. All that does is perpetuate antiquated notions that women can't be taken seriously or trusted with power.

However, if we follow George Perez's thinking...a Wonderverse where Hercules AND Cheetah can, after being evil or destructive, be transformed by WW's inspiring good and moved to follow her lead, we have a consistent example of Wonder Woman's greatest power...

Through it, respect.

My WW family list reflects that standard. Witcher's speculation about it is short-sighted, at best.

"Hippolyta's rapist..."? Would that be back-stabbing, Artemis-murdering, traitor to women Hippolyta ..or sailor-raping, mass murderess, child-abandoning Hippolyta? Or do we just stick her back on a pedestal and look the other way, because she's a woman? What part of any of that BS is Wonder Woman holding up for?

You just can't bend all the rules and lower the all the bars, when it comes to supervillainesses, because they're women - then, switch it all around for supervillains, ..just to keep the bad men - at this point, that's ALL of us - out of the Amazon tree house.

Real-life man fans, good guys, are here and calling fake feminists on their rubbish. The selection of characters on my list reflects that.

I cannot begin to explain to you how none of us on here like those versions of Hippolyta and will actively criticize them and the writers that wrote them. Also, traitor to women? that's pushing it really. Herakles unlike Hippolyta has been 'traditionally' depicted as the subjugator of the amazons and the guy that assaulted Diana's mom. You want a whitewashed Herc? Read Marvel.

What do you think redemption like this looks like? Is he going to come on his hands and knees to Diana and say "Oh, I'm so sorry I deceived the amazons and had my army enslave all of you poor women while under a banner of peace. That all did as whatever they wanted under my orders. All because I wanted to show them where their place in the world was, beneath me. And I' sorry I drugged, assaulted, and raped your queen mother. Can you forgive me? Oh, can I also be a part of your compatriots and have fun with you all?"

Zeus is a serial rapist and the embodiment of patriarchal oppression. Orion was being written by a guy that actively didn't like anything Diana stood for, and he wanted a controversial moment. Herc is not the ideal figure for masculinity. PICK. DIFFERENT. MEN.

And as for the women, I'll be first to tell Cheetah to shove it sick and tired of her being treated as this poor misguided soul. Circe will always be a nuanced villain, so she gets more screen time being one of Diana's big 3, not saying considering how often Diana's rouges get any screen time but hey, that's the reality. And you're barking up the wrong tree with Harley lol only reason she's getting this treatment is because characters like her make bank, that's it.

[bardkeep]

Much like with Superman and Wonder Woman though, Captain Marvel was designed to be the strongest around, which is why arguments could be made for all three of them to be in their own universe instead of a shared superhero universe. Putting him on Earth-5/S and giving him a different Hercules helps with them not stepping on each others toes (Mary similarly is meant to get Supergirl-level strength from Hippolyta, and Diana's mom is not that powerful).

WW fans don't like to make concessions on her strength level (not without reason), so it doesn't seem fair to ask the same of the Marvel family.

Truly the right answer is "shared universes are stupid." But if they must share and there must be a ranking, here's my pitch for DC canon: Superman = best deadlift, Wonder Woman = best squat, Captain Marvel = best bench. The WW/Shazam crossover event can be a cosmic adventure where she walks him through her grueling leg day routine.

You can't indulge Circe, Cheetah and Harley with such a comparatively wide moral berth, ..while relegating characters like Orion, Zeus and Hercules to a one-strike-you're-out standard. All that does is perpetuate antiquated notions that women can't be taken seriously or trusted with power.

Through it, respect.

Total false equivalence. Rape, domestic violence, misogyny, racism...all of those are real problems, endured by people you meet every day of your life. Readers have visceral trauma related to them and topics surrounding them may trigger genuine emotional distress. I can't say you meet many people who've been mauled by a humanoid cat-monster, turned into a pig by a sexy witch goddess, or smashed with a big cartoon hammer by a woman in a clown costume.

Just look at the Harley Quinn show, where Dr. Psycho gets kicked out of the Legion of Doom because he called Wonder Woman the C-word and that's "not their brand of evil."

FAR more narrative sensitivity needs to be applied when you're dealing with a character who's done something that mirrors many readers' real-life trauma. It's why you'll never see a redemption arc about a pedophile or child abuser. As much as I adore his run otherwise, I think George Perez dealt with it terribly, and it's not the only superheroine story that's dropped the ball in that regard (see also: Spike's redemption arc after he tries to rape Buffy).

ANYWAY, I'll bring us back to the original topic of the post. If we're talking core fam (i.e. not her entire supporting cast) I'll say:

Donna
Yara
Nubia
Artemis
Hippolyta
Philippus
Peng Deilan

Fun, diverse crew with lots of narrative possibilities. All 3 tribes are represented and you've got multiple connections to different non-Olympian myths with Peng Deilan, Artemis, and Yara (plus the Titans of Myth + cosmic stuff with Donna). I feel a little bad omitting Cassie but I honestly don't think she brings anything particularly interesting or unique to the table.

[Mel Dyer]

Silver Swan murdered an entire family of people, and writers still treat her as poor Nessie. Hippolyta and the Amazon's straight-up raped and murdered innocent sailors, who did nothing to harm them ..for thousands of years! Don't hand me this intellectual ball of string about moral equivalences..

Mass murder, rape and slavery - these aren't tired atrocities on some imaginary scale. Further, this bit about being mauled by cat mutants is beneath the dignity of your argument, because murder is murder.

[Gaius]

Hercules has pretty much always been portrayed positively for...most of the history of western culture, so I wouldn't really say it's "anti-male" for Wonder Woman to portray the dude in a pretty justifiable negative light. And I enjoy me some Hercules stuff where he's otherwise a straightforward good guy like the Disney film.

Silver Swan murdered an entire family of people, and writers still treat her as poor Nessie. Hippolyta and the Amazon's straight-up raped and murdered innocent sailors, who did nothing to harm them ..for thousands of years! Don't hand me this intellectual ball of string about moral equivalences..

Mass murder, rape and slavery - these aren't tired atrocities on some imaginary scale. Further, this bit about being mauled by cat mutants is beneath the dignity of your argument, because murder is murder.

Vanessa was a teenaged girl, barely on the verge of adulthood, who got her mind messed with by Circe, Dr. Psycho, and Sebastian.

The New 52 Amazons were some of the most criticized elements of that book when it came out, and no one here was chanting "you go girls" when that revelation came up. And to this day that whole plotpoint is used by clickbaity-channels/articles and the ComicsGate-curious crowd to try and make the whole Wonder Woman franchise as misandryist.

Far more than any villainous depiction of Hercules ever has like you claim.

[Perseus]

Silver Swan murdered an entire family of people, and writers still treat her as poor Nessie. Hippolyta and the Amazon's straight-up raped and murdered innocent sailors, who did nothing to harm them ..for thousands of years! Don't hand me this intellectual ball of string about moral equivalences..

Mass murder, rape and slavery - these aren't tired atrocities on some imaginary scale. Further, this bit about being mauled by cat mutants is beneath the dignity of your argument, because murder is murder.

None of which is considered canon anymore but go on.

What I think of Hercules and his place in the Wonder mythos, on this list or ANY list is entirely my business and doesn't require your approval or any consideration of your narrow, anti-male, anti-masculine ideas of what's socially acceptable.

There's no universal criticism of George Perez or WOGs for their redemption of Hercules. There's no archive of myriad discussions on this topic - just you being a misandrist, with no basis for questioning why Hercules is my list. He's on my list, because I put him there. Is that toxically masculine enough for you?

You don't understand something you read in my post. Boohu. Too bad. Read something else.

You take a moral stand on Hercules deserving to be on an ideal WW family list, but back it up with nothing. Be consistent in your reasoning - acknowledge that you aren't or can't be even-handed, comparing villains and villainesses...that you favor one over the other ..and why - if you want your point respected in an honest discussion.

I posted MY list. No apologies. Done. Entertain me by chatting about it for days.

The rest of us will have fun, musing about wanting to see more of the Wonder family in action together, in the comic.

OH, you really showed me. /sarcasm

How could I, a bisexual man, not see that by treating a serial rapist as a serial rapist and subjugator as a subjugator means that I have very narrow, anti-male, anti-masculine ideas. I'm just a misandrist after all, woe is me.

Give me a break.

[SiegePerilous02]

Silver Swan murdered an entire family of people, and writers still treat her as poor Nessie. Hippolyta and the Amazon's straight-up raped and murdered innocent sailors, who did nothing to harm them ..for thousands of years! Don't hand me this intellectual ball of string about moral equivalences..

Mass murder, rape and slavery - these aren't tired atrocities on some imaginary scale. Further, this bit about being mauled by cat mutants is beneath the dignity of your argument, because murder is murder.

Silver Swan is a teenage girl who was manipulated and brainwashed by three evil adults, one of whom was a woman. Abd then used by Veronica Cale, another woman. It's a no-brainer why a child with little agency would receive much more sympathy than grown men and women who are long past their sob stories and choose to be villains. Of which Hercules qualifies.

Wanting a misogynistic rapist to be treated as the villain he is is not fake feminism, those type of people get away with it so much irl that we don't need fiction pushing redemption stories for them, not in WW of all things. Real men have nothing but contempt for those types of bastards too, we don't see ourselves in them. It's why male and female WW fans alike gravitate more towards the likes of Steve, Ferdinand, her male peers in the JL (under ideal writing circumstances), Hermes, a well written Ares, etc over Hercules. He's a public domain figure whose original myth was a sexist story to put women in their place, let WW respond in kind while the sanitized Marvel and Disney versions remain untouched

[Guy_McNichts]

For what it's worth, I prefer Hercules as an antagonist/villain for Wonder Woman purely because I think it's a more interesting approach to the character for this particular world.

Despite what he's actually like in the original myths, Hercules in modern media is typically portrayed as a fairly straight-hero figure. From Lou Ferrigno movies, to Kevin Sorbo, to Disney, to Marvel...there's no shortage of heroic Hercules. At worst, you might get something like that one movie with the Rock where he might be kind of a jerk who learns a lesson by the end.

I think he can afford one iteration where he's a toxic scumbag and antagonist for the actual hero to fight. And it would be in keeping with the general subversive approach to the myths that Wonder Woman is supposed to be, like how the Amazons are peaceful rather than savage.

I don't see how Circe, Cheetah, or poor portrayals of Hippolyta factor in.

[Mel Dyer]

I cannot begin to explain to you how none of us on here like those versions of Hippolyta and will actively criticize them and the writers that wrote them. Also, traitor to women? that's pushing it really. Herakles unlike Hippolyta has been 'traditionally' depicted as the subjugator of the amazons and the guy that assaulted Diana's mom. You want a whitewashed Herc? Read Marvel.

What do you think redemption like this looks like? Is he going to come on his hands and knees to Diana and say "Oh, I'm so sorry I deceived the amazons and had my army enslave all of you poor women while under a banner of peace. That all did as whatever they wanted under my orders. All because I wanted to show them where their place in the world was, beneath me. And I' sorry I drugged, assaulted, and raped your queen mother. Can you forgive me? Oh, can I also be a part of your compatriots and have fun with you all?"

Zeus is a serial rapist and the embodiment of patriarchal oppression. Orion was being written by a guy that actively didn't like anything Diana stood for, and he wanted a controversial moment. Herc is not the ideal figure for masculinity. PICK. DIFFERENT. MEN...

And as for the women, I'll be first to tell Cheetah to shove it sick and tired of her being treated as this poor misguided soul. Circe will always be a nuanced villain, so she gets more screen time being one of Diana's big 3...

You're trying to do the impossible, here...trying to support a consistent argument, exclusively referencing continuities, which you favor - thank you for acknowledging that much. I did precisely the same thing, when I refined my list; so, I don't see your problem with that, and I can'tbe bothered with how you feel about it.

Scott invited us to create these lists, and that's what we're doing, ..freely. You have no place shaming fellow fans for their ideas, considering we all have our favorite continuities, ..especially, when you're doing the same thing.

Hippolyta is a mass rapist, a mass murderess and traitor to women (certainly of Artemis). Hercules is a human trafficker, a terrorist, a slave-driver, a murderer, a thug and a mass rapist. This is the narrative landscape we BOTH are picking over, like buzzards, to scrap together our silly, comic book arguments, ..and your prospects are every bit, as abysmal as mine...worse, mayhap. Mine, at least, acknowledge Hercules's villainy, without which there's no redemption story, ..while you struggle to defend a historically morally ambiguous heroine, Hippolyta.

PICK ANOTHER WOMAN...? How should we require you to justify your choices? No, no. You picked the list, you picked.

It's plain that we have a moral double standard in comparing characters in the WW comic, ..one which unfairly leaves women entirely unaccountable for their actions - a false empowerment of women. No intellectually honest discussion can be had.

Let's get back to looking over each other's lists and having our fun.

[bat22]

It simply is not fair to refuse Hercules membership for his conduct at certain points of his history, regardless of said events being considered in-continuity or disavowed; particularly when someone as morally flexible/reprehensible as Hippolyta is permitted. Both characters' capacities for heroism, villainy, and redemption rest with the fan's head-canon.

In fact, I do believe I'll revise my list...
----------

Diana - Formed out of clay by Hippolyta and brought to life by Olympian gods

Philippus - Former partner of the deceased Hippolyta, former general, and chosen queen of Themyscira

Artemis - Former Wonder Woman and Requiem resurrected, a demon-slaying ronin finding her place amid Man's World, divine remnants of the ancient world, and the Bana Mighdall

Troia - Diana's beloved adopted sister, but fated to become the Titans' champion and someday face the Olympians' Wonder Woman in the final Titanomachy

Etta Candy, Julia Kapatelis, Helena Sandsmark - Diana's friends and intel providers in their fields of expertise

Steve Trevor - Former Checkmate Knight turned DEO agent

Lyta Trevor - Diana and Steve's daughter, and reincarnation of Hippolyta

Hercules - An unassuming gym owner content to look out for his community as well as his many, many descendants; the appeals of high adventure and fame having lost their luster, even if Diana and Artemis routinely pull him into their affairs.

[SiegePerilous02]

It's plain that we have a moral double standard in comparing characters in the WW comic, ..one which unfairly leaves women entirely unaccountable for their actions - a false empowerment of women. No intellectually honest discussion can be had.

Let's get back to looking over each other's lists and having our fun.

Diana's largely female rogues gallery is full of untapped potential to depict loathsome women who should be held accountable for their actions, and a nuanced view of a character like Ares can be well received. This one specific example (Heracles) being a bad candidate for redemption within the confines of the WW franchise does not at all equate to what you are describing here.

It simply is not fair to refuse Hercules membership for his conduct at certain points of his history, regardless of said events being considered in-continuity or disavowed; particularly when someone as morally flexible/reprehensible as Hippolyta is permitted. Both characters' capacities for heroism, villainy, and redemption rest with the fan's head-canon.

Except Hippolyta is the hero's mother and the deuteragonist of the franchise, designed to be an overall heroic figure. The entire foundation of the WW mythos is based around reclaiming Hippolyta from the myths that gave her a raw deal to prop up Heracles. Since the majority of depictions of the classic myth still depict Hippolyta as a disposable obstacle for the male character (when she appears at all), his redemption not being a priority within the context of the WW franchise is how things should be. Saving her from inconsistent moral writing is a bigger priority, because she's the character who actually matters.

He's the equivalent of Joe Chill for the Amazons as a whole, who even cares?

[bardkeep]

Wanting a misogynistic rapist to be treated as the villain he is is not fake feminism, those type of people get away with it so much irl that we don't need fiction pushing redemption stories for them, not in WW of all things. Real men have nothing but contempt for those types of bastards too, we don't see ourselves in them. It's why male and female WW fans alike gravitate more towards the likes of Steve, Ferdinand, her male peers in the JL (under ideal writing circumstances), Hermes, a well written Ares, etc over Hercules. He's a public domain figure whose original myth was a sexist story to put women in their place, let WW respond in kind while the sanitized Marvel and Disney versions remain untouched

Diana's largely female rogues gallery is full of untapped potential to depict loathsome women who should be held accountable for their actions, and a nuanced view of a character like Ares can be well received. This one specific example (Heracles) being a bad candidate for redemption within the confines of the WW franchise does not at all equate to what you are describing here.

Except Hippolyta is the hero's mother and the deuteragonist of the franchise, designed to be an overall heroic figure. The entire foundation of the WW mythos is based around reclaiming Hippolyta from the myths that gave her a raw deal to prop up Heracles. Since the majority of depictions of the classic myth still depict Hippolyta as a disposable obstacle for the male character (when she appears at all), his redemption not being a priority within the context of the WW franchise is how things should be. Saving her from inconsistent moral writing is a bigger priority, because she's the character who actually matters.

He's the equivalent of Joe Chill for the Amazons as a whole, who even cares?

[bat22]

Except Hippolyta is the hero's mother and the deuteragonist of the franchise, designed to be an overall heroic figure. The entire foundation of the WW mythos is based around reclaiming Hippolyta from the myths that gave her a raw deal to prop up Heracles. Since the majority of depictions of the classic myth still depict Hippolyta as a disposable obstacle for the male character (when she appears at all), his redemption not being a priority within the context of the WW franchise is how things should be. Saving her from inconsistent moral writing is a bigger priority, because she's the character who actually matters.

He's the equivalent of Joe Chill for the Amazons as a whole, who even cares?

The foundation of the WW mythos is an Amazon superhero in Man's World. It was the post-COIE team that really brought in the mythology to WW, which included a more villainous Hercules who was not beyond redemption... at least until another creative team took over.

Similar with the creative team behind The Contest, where Hippolyta was a villain setting up Artemis to die in her daughter's place. And later in the Phil Jimenez run where her adventure-lust and hatred of the Bana-Mighdall helped propel the civil war. Her hands are not clean but that doesn't disqualify her from redemption should her sins be maintained in a person's head-canon.

The same courtesy can be given to Hercules who was a hero/adventurer of his age, one whose flawed personality and questionable ethics has not been ignored in the real life tales, nor any sympathy toward the Amazon warriors.

[Agent Z]

The foundation of the WW mythos is an Amazon superhero in Man's World. It was the post-COIE team that really brought in the mythology to WW, which included a more villainous Hercules who was not beyond redemption... at least until another creative team took over.

Similar with the creative team behind The Contest, where Hippolyta was a villain setting up Artemis to die in her daughter's place. And later in the Phil Jimenez run where her adventure-lust and hatred of the Bana-Mighdall helped propel the civil war. Her hands are not clean but that doesn't disqualify her from redemption should her sins be maintained in a person's head-canon.

The same courtesy can be given to Hercules who was a hero/adventurer of his age, one whose flawed personality and questionable ethics has not been ignored in the real life tales, nor any sympathy toward the Amazon warriors.

The mythology was always there in Wonder Woman, even before COIE. Marston even created a valkyrie as one of her villains.

I don't necessarily think Heracles has to or needs to be redeemed but I can accept a situation where the Amazons move past what he did to her without necessarily forgetting or forgiving him. He doesn't need to be a villain past that and personally I think Zeus makes more sense as a Wonder Woman antagonist than Ares or Heracles.

Unfortunately, the only reason we keep having conversations like this is writers not taking into account future stories when writing stuff like Hippolyta's actions in The Contest.