Wonder Family - Who Are Your Ideal Members?

[bardkeep]

The foundation of the WW mythos is an Amazon superhero in Man's World. It was the post-COIE team that really brought in the mythology to WW, which included a more villainous Hercules who was not beyond redemption... at least until another creative team took over.

The character has been about reclaiming patriarchal myths and re-writing them as feminist subversions since day 1, though. For one thing Amazons themselves are characters from mythology (albeit ones inspired by real people), but the bare bones of Marston's lore was that they were agents of Aphrodite in a cosmic struggle between her and Mars, the god of war. It was a reimagined amalgam of Greek and Roman myth, but its foundations were in myth, no less. And like in the Perez lore, they went to Paradise Island after they were enslaved by a villainous Hercules and liberated with Aphrodite's aid. See this graphic from the GA:



The DC Amazons - especially the Pre-Crisis Amazons - purposely bear no resemblance to the ones of myth in spite of drawing from them, so "Amazon superhero in Man's World" is reductive and surface-level. Not to mention the fact that while other superhero writers were drawing from the likes of Buck Rogers and Zorro, far and away the main text that inspired WW was Charlotte Perkins Gilman's Herland, a feminist utopian sci-fi novel that has nothing to do with Amazons or superheroics.

Similar with the creative team behind The Contest, where Hippolyta was a villain setting up Artemis to die in her daughter's place. And later in the Phil Jimenez run where her adventure-lust and hatred of the Bana-Mighdall helped propel the civil war. Her hands are not clean but that doesn't disqualify her from redemption should her sins be maintained in a person's head-canon.

The same courtesy can be given to Hercules who was a hero/adventurer of his age, one whose flawed personality and questionable ethics has not been ignored in the real life tales, nor any sympathy toward the Amazon warriors.

I'd reread SiegePerilous' comment you were responding to:

Except Hippolyta is the hero's mother and the deuteragonist of the franchise, designed to be an overall heroic figure. The entire foundation of the WW mythos is based around reclaiming Hippolyta from the myths that gave her a raw deal to prop up Heracles. Since the majority of depictions of the classic myth still depict Hippolyta as a disposable obstacle for the male character (when she appears at all), his redemption not being a priority within the context of the WW franchise is how things should be. Saving her from inconsistent moral writing is a bigger priority, because she's the character who actually matters.

I also highly recommend reading Jill Lepore's Secret History of Wonder Woman or Tim Hanley's Wonder Woman Unbound if you want to learn more about the ideological and historical foundations of the character. Fascinating stuff.

I don't necessarily think Heracles has to or needs to be redeemed but I can accept a situation where the Amazons move past what he did to her without necessarily forgetting or forgiving him. He doesn't need to be a villain past that and personally I think Zeus makes more sense as a Wonder Woman antagonist than Ares or Heracles.

Unfortunately, the only reason we keep having conversations like this is writers not taking into account future stories when writing stuff like Hippolyta's actions in The Contest.

I agree with this (especially Zeus being the true primary antagonist). But I don't think the Amazons healing from their trauma has anything to do with making Hercules a hero and ally.

[bat22]

The mythology was always there in Wonder Woman, even before COIE. Marston even created a valkyrie as one of her villains.

I don't necessarily think Heracles has to or needs to be redeemed but I can accept a situation where the Amazons move past what he did to her without necessarily forgetting or forgiving him. He doesn't need to be a villain past that and personally I think Zeus makes more sense as a Wonder Woman antagonist than Ares or Heracles.

Unfortunately, the only reason we keep having conversations like this is writers not taking into account future stories when writing stuff like Hippolyta's actions in The Contest.

I didn't want to bring Zeus up to excuse Herc's own choices but I would consider him at least partly responsible for how his most favored son turned out.

Mythology was present in WW's backstory but it was post-COIE that the Pantheon really became emphasized as a higher power faction that WW would continue to work (or contend) with in her exploits.

Like Hercules, I don't think Hippolyta needs to be prestine and pure. And, of all her failings, I think The Contest is maybe her most sympathetic sin since she's driven by her love for Diana; and modern revamps removing this time from WW's history does a disservice to Artemis and makes bland her and Hippolyta's relationship.

[Dr. Poison]

I have to agree with Mel about some of his points about Hippolyta, especially the non-New 52 aspects. Outside of the New 52, Hippolyta has lied, manipulated Artemis into getting killed, dismembered ordinary humans(Byrne's run), turned a blind eye towards sexism amongst her Amazons towards men, and pulled the strings behind the tragedy of Trial of the Amazons. Did she have good intentions with most of these things? Yes, but that doesn't make her a saint. Don't get me wrong, I like the character but she's far from perfect.

[Shimbo]

I have to agree with Mel about some of his points about Hippolyta, especially the non-New 52 aspects. Outside of the New 52, Hippolyta has lied, manipulated Artemis into getting killed, dismembered ordinary humans(Byrne's run), turned a blind eye towards sexism amongst her Amazons towards men, and pulled the strings behind the tragedy of Trial of the Amazons. Did she have good intentions with most of these things? Yes, but that doesn't make her a saint. Don't get me wrong, I like the character but she's far from perfect.

That's what makes her fascinating, though. There is legitimate drama and stakes waiting to be explored in the differences between Hippolyta and Diana, particularly between obligations and responsibilities as a Queen versus an independent actor. Hippolyta is a good person, but very much shaped by war, tragedy, and duty, whereas Diana was born in Paradise. The nuance is different, and their overall approaches to life and decision-making are different as a result. Diana gets to be better, imo, in large part because of the sacrifices and tough choices her mother and Amazon forebears made.

I admit I love me some generational drama/trauma and greatly enjoying the centering of a matrilineal relationship in the premier superheroine's comicbook. It doesn't even have to be forced drama considering all the points that have been raised about Hippolyta's...approach

[Dr. Poison]

That's what makes her fascinating, though. There is legitimate drama and stakes waiting to be explored in the differences between Hippolyta and Diana, particularly between obligations and responsibilities as a Queen versus an independent actor. Hippolyta is a good person, but very much shaped by war, tragedy, and duty, whereas Diana was born in Paradise. The nuance is different, and their overall approaches to life and decision-making are different as a result. Diana gets to be better, imo, in large part because of the sacrifices and tough choices her mother and Amazon forebears made.

I admit I love me some generational drama/trauma and greatly enjoying the centering of a matrilineal relationship in the premier superheroine's comicbook. It doesn't even have to be forced drama considering all the points that have been raised about Hippolyta's...approach

I don't disagree with that and I also don't think that Hippoylta is as bad as Hercules who seemed to delight in violence & bloodshed, especially in Perez's run. While Hippolyta does have her flaws, she usually shows remorse for her unethical actions but sometimes the means don't justify the ends.

[Shimbo]

I don't disagree with that and I also don't think that Hippoylta is as bad as Hercules who seemed to delight in violence & bloodshed, especially in Perez's run. While Hippolyta does have her flaws, she usually shows remorse for her unethical actions but sometimes the means don't justify the ends.

Oh, absolutely, Dr. Poison! I can personally take or leave Hercules/Herakles in the WW mythos, but if he is in it, I like him to be a historical antagonist handled by the Amazons before Diana is even around. I see him as an Amazon/Hippolyta antagonist, and I appreciate how the WW book can subvert the bullshit misogynist myths that do Hippolyta dirty. Redeeming him is a possibility, but the WW book is in need of so many other things that I think this particular plot and narrative throughline is not particularly necessary or interesting at this point in time, but to each their own...

If Diana is to have a male super in her main group, I'd prefer it to be Siggy (links to another pantheon), Ferdinand (vegan beasty adds desperately needed visual spice to the cast/book and instantly lets readers know this is a fantastical book), or Achilles Warkiller (the visual of him on the elephant/Mysia is just so Wonderous it's a shame if we never get to see it again; also he's queer, no?).

I do think the Wonder fam is limited by the similarity of their powers/the visual representation of their powers. Everyone is a flying/non-flying brick with lassos and some rustic/magical weapons. It'd be nice to have some diversity in power sets or at least differences in visual representation of their powers that isn't just color-coded/Power Rangers. A caster/long-distance combatant member would make a nice addition.

[marhawkman]

Oh, absolutely, Dr. Poison! I can personally take or leave Hercules/Herakles in the WW mythos, but if he is in it, I like him to be a historical antagonist handled by the Amazons before Diana is even around. I see him as an Amazon/Hippolyta antagonist, and I appreciate how the WW book can subvert the bullshit misogynist myths that do Hippolyta dirty. Redeeming him is a possibility, but the WW book is in need of so many other things that I think this particular plot and narrative throughline is not particularly necessary or interesting at this point in time, but to each their own...

If Diana is to have a male super in her main group, I'd prefer it to be Siggy (links to another pantheon), Ferdinand (vegan beasty adds desperately needed visual spice to the cast/book and instantly lets readers know this is a fantastical book), or Achilles Warkiller (the visual of him on the elephant/Mysia is just so Wonderous it's a shame if we never get to see it again; also he's queer, no?).

I do think the Wonder fam is limited by the similarity of their powers/the visual representation of their powers. Everyone is a flying/non-flying brick with lassos and some rustic/magical weapons. It'd be nice to have some diversity in power sets or at least differences in visual representation of their powers that isn't just color-coded/Power Rangers. A caster/long-distance combatant member would make a nice addition.

I'd personally like to use more things that are refs to things from myths. Herc is a pretty natural choice due to how closely tied he is to Amazons.

Which is part of why I like the idea of using Circe's children. Circe is famous for being one of the greatest enemies of the Amazons and Hippolyta, and so on... but... Circe's family in the myths... is forgotten completely.

[DABellWrites]

Wasn't this already a thread? Oh well. I keep to my previous comment. The mainstays should be Steve, Diana, and Etta (preferably red-head). You can rotate the others in and out as per the writer.

[Mel Dyer]

The foundation of the WW mythos is an Amazon superhero in Man's World. It was the post-COIE team that really brought in the mythology to WW, which included a more villainous Hercules who was not beyond redemption... at least until another creative team took over.

Similar with the creative team behind The Contest, where Hippolyta was a villain setting up Artemis to die in her daughter's place. And later in the Phil Jimenez run where her adventure-lust and hatred of the Bana-Mighdall helped propel the civil war. Her hands are not clean but that doesn't disqualify her from redemption should her sins be maintained in a person's head-canon.

The same courtesy can be given to Hercules who was a hero/adventurer of his age, one whose flawed personality and questionable ethics has not been ignored in the real life tales, nor any sympathy toward the Amazon warriors.

Well acquitted..and I like your idea, reintroducing Hercules as a gym owner, adventurer and protector of an [Is it?] urban community? If we're to follow some classical texts, it would likely be an LGBTQA community he'd swear protection to, and maybe one with a history of anti-gay attacks. Can you picture this story unfolding in Gateway City?

I can!

What some of our fellow fans don't understand is leaving Hercules in the rear-view cheats WW out of one of her most iconoclastic triumphs, that being the transformation of human heart and spirit, ..through love and hope. In our fellow fans' blind, broad contempt for toxic masculinity or (here, sometimes) ANY traditional masculinity, they propagate the misogynist idea that women shouldn't be accountable for even their worst offenses, and that no traditionallly masculine man will ever follow the example a woman...even a Wonder Woman.

Hercules was WW's bumbling fairy godfather in the Silver Age and led them into battle against Circe in WOGs. That happened in the comic, and it was great to see. Ignore the manhaters.

Great setup you have for a Hercules subplot!

[Stanlos]

The foundation of the WW mythos is an Amazon superhero in Man's World. It was the post-COIE team that really brought in the mythology to WW, which included a more villainous Hercules who was not beyond redemption... at least until another creative team took over.

Similar with the creative team behind The Contest, where Hippolyta was a villain setting up Artemis to die in her daughter's place. And later in the Phil Jimenez run where her adventure-lust and hatred of the Bana-Mighdall helped propel the civil war. Her hands are not clean but that doesn't disqualify her from redemption should her sins be maintained in a person's head-canon.

The same courtesy can be given to Hercules who was a hero/adventurer of his age, one whose flawed personality and questionable ethics has not been ignored in the real life tales, nor any sympathy toward the Amazon warriors.

That bolded text is not exactly true. WW starts with the Amazons and it should be noted it is not the Amazons as most male writers interpret them. They were essentially the New Gods before Kirby invented the New Gods. This is pretty easy to see going over history for the character's origin IRL and also when checking out the earlier backstory--that is why I was surprised that a Grant Morrison capable of doing Wonderworld in JLA would go so small and unimaginative when he pens her. Perhaps one day he will stop resisting the design and lean into it without the undercurrent of resentment.

But anyway, the Amazons as originally envisioned challenged other mythos legends like Valkyries and Angels and they were supposed to literally have mastered all of time and space but chosen to not use that power for subjugation.

So mythology--and the intermingling of different ones--was there at jump. Also present was the notion of versatility. WW stories could be fantasy, they could be scifi, they could be horrir. She isn't just one thing by virtue of the design's DNA. That was one of the stronger points of WML, Byrne, Luke, Jimenez, and Simone's run. WW can fit in stories about anything whether the mundane drudgery of secretary-ing or taco slinging to the unimaginable scope of battling an entity threatening to casually destroy multiple multiverses. Her kit and gear enable her to deal with just about anything in any setting.

The main things to carry forward are dominance in power wielded with love, compassion and a desire to teach and share.

[John Venus]

I didn't want to bring Zeus up to excuse Herc's own choices but I would consider him at least partly responsible for how his most favored son turned out.

Mythology was present in WW's backstory but it was post-COIE that the Pantheon really became emphasized as a higher power faction that WW would continue to work (or contend) with in her exploits.

Like Hercules, I don't think Hippolyta needs to be prestine and pure. And, of all her failings, I think The Contest is maybe her most sympathetic sin since she's driven by her love for Diana; and modern revamps removing this time from WW's history does a disservice to Artemis and makes bland her and Hippolyta's relationship.

Not really. The gods figured even into the Golden Age stories, Aphrodite inspired the Venusians and villains like Duke of Deception and Earl of Greed were agents of Mars. WW was kitchen sink fantasy and it was a platform for Marston to wax his social commentary on and he used whatever he got. The Gods also figured heavily in the Silver/Bronze Ages; Mars empowered the Silver Swan, the Titans of Myth warred against the Olympians with the Teen Titans and Hippolyta caught in the middle, there was that crazy love triangle between Diana, the real Steve Trevor and Eros who thought he was Steve Trevor.

It would be more accurate to say that Post Crisis, the parts of her mythos that had less to do with the Greek Mythology were *less* emphasized or outright forgotten and it took decades for those elements to make a come back.

[Mel Dyer]

That bolded text is not exactly true. WW starts with the Amazons...Also present was the notion of versatility. WW stories could be fantasy, they could be scifi, they could be horrir. She isn't just one thing by virtue of the design's DNA. That was one of the stronger points of WML, Byrne, Luke, Jimenez, and Simone's run. WW can fit in stories about anything...

"The foundation of the WW mythos is an Amazon superhero in Man's World..." by Bat22 - the bolded text in question. I have to agree with the simple truth of that statement, while also agreeing with everything you shared about WW's genre versatility.

I'll happily buy a second WW monthly, featuring stories of Diana and the Amazons leaping into the timestream or magical realms - a real myth-inspired, heroic fantasy venture, with pegacorns, elaborate period costumes and Elizabethan speech patterns. I've been a champion of the two-comic solution for the better of a decade, now.

All that just the same, as I see it, Diana has to leave the princess-life and that island in the rearview, somewhere. Eventually, she does...or what's the point of there being a Wonder Woman?

[astro@work]

IDEAL MEMBERS:
Wonder Tot
General Parnell
The Golden Age Holliday Girls
Ed Indelicato
Trevor Barnes
Merboy

...oops, my bad, that's the blocked list on Diana's cell.

[Thirteen]

Anyone but JASON...

[bat22]

Well acquitted..and I like your idea, reintroducing Hercules as a gym owner, adventurer and protector of an [Is it?] urban community? If we're to follow some classical texts, it would likely be an LGBTQA community he'd swear protection to, and maybe one with a history of anti-gay attacks. Can you picture this story unfolding in Gateway City?

I can!

What some of our fellow fans don't understand is leaving Hercules in the rear-view cheats WW out of one of her most iconoclastic triumphs, that being the transformation of human heart and spirit, ..through love and hope. In our fellow fans' blind, broad contempt for toxic masculinity or (here, sometimes) ANY traditional masculinity, they propagate the misogynist idea that women shouldn't be accountable for even their worst offenses, and that no traditionallly masculine man will ever follow the example a woman...even a Wonder Woman.

Hercules was WW's bumbling fairy godfather in the Silver Age and led them into battle against Circe in WOGs. That happened in the comic, and it was great to see. Ignore the manhaters.

Great setup you have for a Hercules subplot!

Thank you. It'd be whatever community his gym is patron to. He could act as bodyguard to a threatened LGBT youth; fight racism (not necessarily against white antagonists); help the homeless (or get them to clean their ____ up); break up a drug ring; save the rec center... Basically like Kwai Chang Caine in Kung Fu: The Legend Continues.

Hercules in WOGs presented one of the best redemptions in the WW mythos, much as that's been washed over. Misandry is a word I actually had to learn in my middle age with fourth-wave feminism in the States.

Hercules also has a chance to be a godfather to his descendents, in a way getting to understand fatherhood while trying not to make the same mistakes Zeus did.