Wonder Family - Who Are Your Ideal Members?

[John Venus]

Thank you. It'd be whatever community his gym is patron to. He could act as bodyguard to a threatened LGBT youth; fight racism (not necessarily against white antagonists); help the homeless (or get them to clean their ____ up); break up a drug ring; save the rec center... Basically like Kwai Chang Caine in Kung Fu: The Legend Continues.

Hercules in WOGs presented one of the best redemptions in the WW mythos, much as that's been washed over. Misandry is a word I actually had to learn in my middle age with fourth-wave feminism in the States.

Hercules also has a chance to be a godfather to his descendents, in a way getting to understand fatherhood while trying not to make the same mistakes Zeus did.

It would be easier to redeem Hercules if he wasn't a rapist though.

We are very likely to see Hercules as a heroic figure in stories. Some of the things you suggested is something we are likely to see Marvel's Hercules do as well.

WW mythos is unique opportunity to see Hercules from a different angle and more importantly give a spot light to characters who don't normally get them; like Hippolyta who is largely a throwaway character in mythology but in WW is the mother of our heroine.

[bat22]

It would be easier to redeem Hercules if he wasn't a rapist though.

We are very likely to see Hercules as a heroic figure in stories. Some of the things you suggested is something we are likely to see Marvel's Hercules do as well.

WW mythos is unique opportunity to see Hercules from a different angle and more importantly give a spot light to characters who don't normally get them; like Hippolyta who is largely a throwaway character in mythology but in WW is the mother of our heroine.

It'd be easy if all Herc did was hurt someone's feelings, but he did rape among other deplorable acts. It makes him a more complex character as someone who's changed his views and acts accordingly, as opposed to a comically unrepentant villain.

In my head canon, Hercules would look less like Marvel's version and maybe more like actor Clint Walker, clean-shaven and casually dressed in his modern-day adventures.

If drawing on actual Amazons from the myths, Hippolyta was a given partly from her inclusion in Hercules' renowned exploits. I think Penthesilea, who fought in the Trojan War, has been underutilized despite historically being one of Hipplyta's sisters.

[marhawkman]

It'd be easy if all Herc did was hurt someone's feelings, but he did rape among other deplorable acts. It makes him a more complex character as someone who's changed his views and acts accordingly, as opposed to a comically unrepentant villain.

In my head canon, Hercules would look less like Marvel's version and maybe more like actor Clint Walker, clean-shaven and casually dressed in his modern-day adventures.

If drawing on actual Amazons from the myths, Hippolyta was a given partly from her inclusion in Hercules' renowned exploits. I think Penthesilea, who fought in the Trojan War, has been underutilized despite historically being one of Hipplyta's sisters.

See, you can go in the old "influenced by the gods" angle from several previous takes. He did things... that... weren't really his idea.

[Awonder]

See, you can go in the old "influenced by the gods" angle from several previous takes. He did things... that... weren't really his idea.

I've never been a big fan of "the devil made me do it" excuse. It diminishes the agency and responsibility in both the crime and the resulting consequences. If there is to be any redemption, Herc needs to own his choices and actions.

[marhawkman]

I've never been a big fan of "the devil made me do it" excuse. It diminishes the agency and responsibility in both the crime and the resulting consequences. If there is to be any redemption, Herc needs to own his choices and actions.

Enh, it's totally a thing from the old stories though.

[bat22]

Enh, it's totally a thing from the old stories though.

I recall a "fit of madness" sent from Hera that seized Herc and led to him murdering his family. That manipulation could still stand alongside the other disagreeable but deliberate choices that he has made.

[Stanlos]

I recall a "fit of madness" sent from Hera that seized Herc and led to him murdering his family. That manipulation could still stand alongside the other disagreeable but deliberate choices that he has made.

I suppose you are right at that. It COULD.

However, even if it did I still would find Perez's plot of Hippolyte taking up with him very uncomfortable and icky. Same for her using her rapist's semen to creat Diana over in WWE1

[bat22]

I suppose you are right at that. It COULD.

However, even if it did I still would find Perez's plot of Hippolyte taking up with him very uncomfortable and icky. Same for her using her rapist's semen to creat Diana over in WWE1

I'm partial to Hippolyta and Philippus, but I also think a Hercules affair could make sense with the right context. If H&H have lived for generations, themselves changing and having performed many good deeds as well as made terrible mistakes; then I could see them reconnecting in a better romantic sense.

[Mel Dyer]

I'm partial to Hippolyta and Philippus, but I also think a Hercules affair could make sense with the right context. If H&H have lived for generations, themselves changing and having performed many good deeds as well as made terrible mistakes; then I could see them reconnecting in a better romantic sense.

You've got a marvelous idea for Hercules, Bat.

As I mentioned in another thread, there's more than one myth-inspired interpretation of Hercules. Our community generally ignores Brian Azzarello's 'sex pirate' Amazons, Finch's brother-murdering Amazons or mythology's man-exploiting, child-abandoning Amazons, ..while insisting Hercules can only be a rapist. Then, we remind each other that DC's Hercules should be a villain (surely, the stupidest of WW's villains), because Marvel Comics' Hercules is heroic. It's very obviously a political issue with some of us here (not me, though), and we have to accept that there are those among us who will never accept Hercules, no matter what the best writers do with him, ..simply because he is unapologetically traditionally masculine.

George Perez presented 'Heracles' as a rapist and enslaver of Amazons, wrote a story that punished him for his crimes, showed the Amazons forgiving him in that story, ..after which he wrote another story showing him honoring a promise to fight beside the Amazons and leading them into battle against a mass-murdering, man-drugging, megalomaniacal Circe. Ignoring almost all of that, ALL from George, ..we (not me) settle on that one part of Perez's story, vilifying and rightly punishing him, exclusively as a rapist.

Hope you hold onto your idea, continue to share it with us ..and ignore the man-hating politics, which Wonder Woman, in any incarnation, would have no part of.

[Agent Z]

You've got a marvelous idea for Hercules, Bat.

As I mentioned in another thread, there's more than one myth-inspired interpretation of Hercules. Our community generally ignores Brian Azzarello's 'sex pirate' Amazons, Finch's brother-murdering Amazons or mythology's man-exploiting, child-abandoning Amazons, ..while insisting Hercules can only be a rapist. Then, we remind each other that DC's Hercules should be a villain (surely, the stupidest of WW's villains), because Marvel Comics' Hercules is heroic. It's very obviously a political issue with some of us here (not me, though), and we have to accept that there are those among us who will never accept Hercules, no matter what the best writers do with him, ..simply because he is unapologetically traditionally masculine.

George Perez presented 'Heracles' as a rapist and enslaver of Amazons, wrote a story that punished him for his crimes, showed the Amazons forgiving him in that story, ..after which he wrote another story showing him honoring a promise to fight beside the Amazons and leading them into battle against a mass-murdering, man-drugging, megalomaniacal Circe. Ignoring almost all of that, ALL from George, ..we (not me) settle on that one part of Perez's story, vilifying and rightly punishing him, exclusively as a rapist.

Hope you hold onto your idea, continue to share it with us ..and ignore the man-hating politics, which Wonder Woman, in any incarnation, would have no part of.

I don't think anyone has ever said Heracles should only be a rapist. Also, Heracles isn't even in Wonder Woman's top ten stupidest villains.

[SiegePerilous02]

You've got a marvelous idea for Hercules, Bat.

As I mentioned in another thread, there's more than one myth-inspired interpretation of Hercules. Our community generally ignores Brian Azzarello's 'sex pirate' Amazons, Finch's brother-murdering Amazons or mythology's man-exploiting, child-abandoning Amazons, ..while insisting Hercules can only be a rapist. Then, we remind each other that DC's Hercules should be a villain (surely, the stupidest of WW's villains), because Marvel Comics' Hercules is heroic. It's very obviously a political issue with some of us here (not me, though), and we have to accept that there are those among us who will never accept Hercules, no matter what the best writers do with him, ..simply because he is unapologetically traditionally masculine.

George Perez presented 'Heracles' as a rapist and enslaver of Amazons, wrote a story that punished him for his crimes, showed the Amazons forgiving him in that story, ..after which he wrote another story showing him honoring a promise to fight beside the Amazons and leading them into battle against a mass-murdering, man-drugging, megalomaniacal Circe. Ignoring almost all of that, ALL from George, ..we (not me) settle on that one part of Perez's story, vilifying and rightly punishing him, exclusively as a rapist.

Hope you hold onto your idea, continue to share it with us ..and ignore the man-hating politics, which Wonder Woman, in any incarnation, would have no part of.

The only one saying people hate on Hercules because he's masculine is you. Others don't have that limited of a view on masculinity.

Whether he crosses the line into being a full rapist or is just an antagonistic thug, Hercules is designed to be a villain for the WW mythos because the Amazons were villains in his myth. Since we can't change to a compromise on how the Amazons are depicted in a literal ancient cultural myth, I don't see why the Wonder Woman universe should play nice with Hercules in return.

I don't think anyone has ever said Heracles should only be a rapist. Also, Heracles isn't even in Wonder Woman's top ten stupidest villains.

Even within DC, there is a multiverse where multiple Hercules' can exist. I think Shazam should be on his own Earth where he can be empowered by a stronger, more heroic Hercules (while Mary is empowered by a different Hippolyta). But for the main Earths that have a Wonder Woman, he should be depicted as an antagonist as he was designed to be. And weaker than Diana

[Mel Dyer]

George Perez, Greg Potter, Robert Kanigher, J. Torres and James Robinson would disagree that "Hercules is designed to be a villain for the WW mythos." Hercules is whoever and representative of whatever their stories say - thuggery, masculinity, honor, heroism, redemption, hope. Why shouldn't we welcome writers presenting Hercules, Zeus and other male characters being as complex and capable of change, as any woman in the WW comic? If we (you) have a problem with that, it's our problem.

Either way, Bat 22 shared a cool idea of what might be made of Hercules. We should encourage him.

[Gaius]

George Perez, Greg Potter, Robert Kanigher, J. Torres and James Robinson would disagree that "Hercules is designed to be a villain for the WW mythos." Hercules is whoever and representative of whatever their stories say - thuggery, masculinity, honor, heroism, redemption, hope. Why shouldn't we welcome writers presenting Hercules, Zeus and other male characters being as complex and capable of change, as any woman in the WW comic? If we (you) have a problem with that, it's our problem.

Either way, Bat 22 shared a cool idea of what might be made of Hercules. We should encourage him.

I mean, all respect to Perez, his run still largely remains the gold standard, but his Heracles story arc is probably the most poorly aged thing about his run.

And not sure why you're naming Kanigher and Robinson as some sort of "appeal to authority" trump cards. Both their runs are regarded as nadirs in Wonder Woman's publication history.

[bardkeep]

You've got a marvelous idea for Hercules, Bat.

As I mentioned in another thread, there's more than one myth-inspired interpretation of Hercules. Our community generally ignores Brian Azzarello's 'sex pirate' Amazons, Finch's brother-murdering Amazons or mythology's man-exploiting, child-abandoning Amazons, ..while insisting Hercules can only be a rapist. Then, we remind each other that DC's Hercules should be a villain (surely, the stupidest of WW's villains), because Marvel Comics' Hercules is heroic. It's very obviously a political issue with some of us here (not me, though), and we have to accept that there are those among us who will never accept Hercules, no matter what the best writers do with him, ..simply because he is unapologetically traditionally masculine.

George Perez presented 'Heracles' as a rapist and enslaver of Amazons, wrote a story that punished him for his crimes, showed the Amazons forgiving him in that story, ..after which he wrote another story showing him honoring a promise to fight beside the Amazons and leading them into battle against a mass-murdering, man-drugging, megalomaniacal Circe. Ignoring almost all of that, ALL from George, ..we (not me) settle on that one part of Perez's story, vilifying and rightly punishing him, exclusively as a rapist.

Hope you hold onto your idea, continue to share it with us ..and ignore the man-hating politics, which Wonder Woman, in any incarnation, would have no part of.

If you want more powerful, masculine male allies in Wonder Woman comics, you've got the likes of Siggy, Rama, Achilles, and Hermes. And they're not gods or superheroes, but Ferdinand and Steve are also both strong, celebrated, masculine men.

If you want an iconic symbol of masculine strength presented in a positive light, read any number of issues featuring Superman or Batman.

If you want a book that centers strong male characters, read 99% of other books on the shelves.

But Hercules is very much not it. His enslavement of the Amazons appeared in the first ever Wonder Woman comic before she was even called Wonder Woman. Amazon lore was built around subverting the myth that venerates Hercules and vilifies the Amazons, especially when Hercules' objective in the labor is the very un-subtle rape metaphor "stealing Hippolyta's girdle." A core theme is about marginalized people taking their narrative back, with Hercules representing the oppressor who stole their story. Why would you strip the lore of so much thematic power just for the sake of introducing a strong male ally when there are countless other options (or, hell, just make up a new one)?

And for what it's worth, Perez's Heracles redemption arc is often discussed and it's widely regarded as a poorly-aged stain on the run.

[SiegePerilous02]

George Perez, Greg Potter, Robert Kanigher, J. Torres and James Robinson would disagree that "Hercules is designed to be a villain for the WW mythos."

The latter three are not any sort of respectable authority on Wonder Woman. Marston > anybody other than Perez, and Perez's writing of the Heracles redemption has been criticized for aging poorly long before me.

Why shouldn't we welcome writers presenting Hercules, Zeus and other male characters being as complex and capable of change, as any woman in the WW comic? If we (you) have a problem with that, it's our problem.

Complex male figures being redeemed is fine. Where has anybody indicated they are against that? Morally gray Ares is pretty popular on these boards. Achilles from Simone's run is also pretty well liked.

But this franchise is built on the Amazon origin of them being enslaved and brutalized by Hercules and his men. Perez took the logical next step and pointed to rape. Heinberg later brought it back with him wanting to force himself on Diana. Morrison had him threaten to rape Hippolyta again.

It's pretty firmly entrenched in this franchise now what kind of patriarchal evil Hercules is used to represent, because the myth of him and the Amazons was designed to put women in their place. It'd be pretty rife with unfortunate implications to walk back on it and soften the treatment of him. Especially as the Wonder Woman franchise is meant to be inspiring for women in particular; if women don't get justice for rape and violence irl, why have our fiction tell us the sympathy should lie with the rapist?

Either way, Bat 22 shared a cool idea of what might be made of Hercules. We should encourage him.

It's not that cool of an idea, and I don't think we'll be getting more for a bit.