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  1. #91
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    I wonder what else could she be, assuming they are not turning her into an alien and she is still a woman of color from the planet earth….. what alse could be added to this status if we exclude a mutant gene?
    We have lots and lots of options outside of the mutant gene. The beauty of the fictional universe is that the imagination need not be limited in any way.

    For all we know, Monica's parents are Aspirants forced to live human lives by opposing Celestials. The accident just merely awakened her powers.

    Or maybe the multiverse when it was first created also birthed a sentient abstraction that would later become Monica.

    Or maybe Monica is a cursed god forced to live many life cycles in mortal form, completely ignorant of her true power and history.

    Or maybe the Beyonder decided that it wasn't enough to merely look like a Michael Jackson clone, but he wanted to send a fraction of his psyche back in time to live as a Black woman in America. Monica is the product of that choice.

    We could go on and on.

  2. #92
    Beware! Daedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    We have lots and lots of options outside of the mutant gene. The beauty of the fictional universe is that the imagination need not be limited in any way.

    For all we know, Monica's parents are Aspirants forced to live human lives by opposing Celestials. The accident just merely awakened her powers.

    Or maybe the multiverse when it was first created also birthed a sentient abstraction that would later become Monica.

    Or maybe Monica is a cursed god forced to live many life cycles in mortal form, completely ignorant of her true power and history.

    Or maybe the Beyonder decided that it wasn't enough to merely look like a Michael Jackson clone, but he wanted to send a fraction of his psyche back in time to live as a Black woman in America. Monica is the product of that choice.

    We could go on and on.
    No offense but I fail to see any upside in retconning her origin in such a fashion
    Ommadon: “By summoning all the dark powers I will infest the spirit of man So that he uses his science and logic to destroy himself. Greed and avarice shall prevail, and those who do not hear my words shall pay the price. I'll teach man to use his machines, I'll show him what distorted science can give birth to. I'll teach him to fly like a fairy, and I'll give him the ultimate answer to all his science can ask. And the world will be free for my magic again.”

  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Monica could have been everything to Marvel that Wonder Woman is to DC, if they'd only listen to her fans.
    yep. From the late 1980s forward, editorial/successive writers knocked her down repeatedly.

    at least Monica has a higher multimedia profile compared to Genis Vell and Phyla Vell now. Hopefully it stays that way.

  4. #94
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Captain Marvel #50 has a variant with Spectrum on it.
    I like this costume .

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    We have lots and lots of options outside of the mutant gene. The beauty of the fictional universe is that the imagination need not be limited in any way.

    For all we know, Monica's parents are Aspirants forced to live human lives by opposing Celestials. The accident just merely awakened her powers.

    Or maybe the multiverse when it was first created also birthed a sentient abstraction that would later become Monica.

    Or maybe Monica is a cursed god forced to live many life cycles in mortal form, completely ignorant of her true power and history.

    Or maybe the Beyonder decided that it wasn't enough to merely look like a Michael Jackson clone, but he wanted to send a fraction of his psyche back in time to live as a Black woman in America. Monica is the product of that choice.

    We could go on and on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    No offense but I fail to see any upside in retconning her origin in such a fashion
    I concur... If Jean Grey, Ororo, Gabriel, and that nutjob Bennet as mutants can be "party of one" universal devastation there is no reason why Monica (if confirmed to be an X-Gene carrier) can't join the party.

  6. #96
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    No offense but I fail to see any upside in retconning her origin in such a fashion
    I'm not calling for these specific changes. My point is that there are creative choices that writers can incorporate into Monica's history IF they opt for revisionism. But simply pulling the "she's a mutant" card is beyond pathetic at this point.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    I'm not calling for these specific changes. My point is that there are creative choices that writers can incorporate into Monica's history IF they opt for revisionism. But simply pulling the "she's a mutant" card is beyond pathetic at this point.
    I get your point JudicatorPrime and I assure you I’m not advocating for the mutant card either but looking for some “valid alternative” that won’t negatively impact her background as a strong and independent woman of color, when I say valid alternative I mean something that actually makes sense, it needs to enrich her character further otherwise I don’t see the point in messing with her origin just for the sake of it
    Ommadon: “By summoning all the dark powers I will infest the spirit of man So that he uses his science and logic to destroy himself. Greed and avarice shall prevail, and those who do not hear my words shall pay the price. I'll teach man to use his machines, I'll show him what distorted science can give birth to. I'll teach him to fly like a fairy, and I'll give him the ultimate answer to all his science can ask. And the world will be free for my magic again.”

  8. #98
    Incredible Member strathcona's Avatar
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    If anything, I'm hoping her powers will be connected to the Beyonders origin mentioned in this issue involving Molecule Man (there must be a reason to bring it up afterall). Molecule Man got his powers way back in FF #20 in 1963, Monica didn't appear until almost 20 years later. She would have been a kid at the time MM got his powers. Maybe the pinhole that opened between realities gave her the powers somehow. I'm guessing we'll find out more next issue.

  9. #99
    Fantastic Member alanyoung909's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    I get your point JudicatorPrime and I assure you I’m not advocating for the mutant card either but looking for some “valid alternative” that won’t negatively impact her background as a strong and independent woman of color, when I say valid alternative I mean something that actually makes sense, it needs to enrich her character further otherwise I don’t see the point in messing with her origin just for the sake of it
    This comic EXISTS solely to mess with her origin story though.
    We've seen this format of book from Marvel before, a 5 issue mini-series to revise the origin story of a character before their movie debut.
    The Life of Captain Marvel before Captain Marvel, America Chavez: Made in the USA before Multiverse of Madness, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by strathcona View Post
    If anything, I'm hoping her powers will be connected to the Beyonders origin mentioned in this issue involving Molecule Man (there must be a reason to bring it up afterall). Molecule Man got his powers way back in FF #20 in 1963, Monica didn't appear until almost 20 years later. She would have been a kid at the time MM got his powers. Maybe the pinhole that opened between realities gave her the powers somehow. I'm guessing we'll find out more next issue.
    I agree with this - I feel the most likely route the revised origin story will take is to connect Monica to the Beyonders and/or the Molecule Man. The sequence reiterating the Molecule Man's origin story has to be here for a reason.
    There is some precedent to taking Monica in this direction - as I'm sure JudicatorPrime has noticed before, Al Ewing has placed the Beyonder Omega Council symbol on Monica's hands before (in Mighty Avengers?).

  10. #100
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanyoung909 View Post
    This comic EXISTS solely to mess with her origin story though.
    We've seen this format of book from Marvel before, a 5 issue mini-series to revise the origin story of a character before their movie debut.
    The Life of Captain Marvel before Captain Marvel, America Chavez: Made in the USA before Multiverse of Madness, etc.

    I agree with this - I feel the most likely route the revised origin story will take is to connect Monica to the Beyonders and/or the Molecule Man. The sequence reiterating the Molecule Man's origin story has to be here for a reason.
    There is some precedent to taking Monica in this direction - as I'm sure JudicatorPrime has noticed before, Al Ewing has placed the Beyonder Omega Council symbol on Monica's hands before (in Mighty Avengers?).
    Which is ironic because it tends to make their origins much more different than what the movies went with.

  11. #101
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strathcona View Post
    If anything, I'm hoping her powers will be connected to the Beyonders origin mentioned in this issue involving Molecule Man (there must be a reason to bring it up afterall). Molecule Man got his powers way back in FF #20 in 1963, Monica didn't appear until almost 20 years later. She would have been a kid at the time MM got his powers. Maybe the pinhole that opened between realities gave her the powers somehow. I'm guessing we'll find out more next issue.
    She actually wouldn't have been a kid, since she wasn't a teenager when she got her own powers. The FF's origin as published in 1961 is supposed to be roughly 15 years ago in-universe. 1981, 2001, 2021. Every 20 years in the real world is about 4 in the Marvel Universe. As such Monica would only be four years older when she got her powers than she was when Molecule Man got his. And I'm pretty sure she was already in her 20s when she debuted as the second Captain Marvel (so would be in her 30s now). So if she was now a kid when she got her powers, this mini seems to be retconning that she had her powers before the FF got theirs.
    Last edited by Digifiend; 03-26-2023 at 10:47 AM.
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  12. #102

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    just who are the beyonders, beyond the one guy from the 1980s. There's a council?

    have Monica's powers been expanded here? Shrunken again? Stayed the same? Clarified which version of her was in Nextwave?

  13. #103
    Incredible Member strathcona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    She actually wouldn't have been a kid, since she wasn't a teenager when she got her own powers. The FF's origin as published in 1961 is supposed to be roughly 15 years ago in-universe. 1981, 2001, 2021. Every 20 years in the real world is about 4 in the Marvel Universe. As such Monica would only be four years older when she got her powers than she was when Molecule Man got his. And I'm pretty sure she was already in her 20s when she debuted as the second Captain Marvel (so would be in her 30s now). So if she was now a kid when she got her powers, this mini seems to be retconning that she had her powers before the FF got theirs.
    I don't buy into the 15 year line that Marvel pushes. It doesn't make sense... so what if Spider-Man is in his 30s? In my mind it's been about 18 or 19 years by now. But that would still mean the difference between Molecule Man and Monica's first appearances is only about 4 year in MU time. I'm willing to accept that she was in her mid teens in that scene. Maybe 16 or 17. Making her in her early 20s when she became Captain Marvel. That works for me.

    Plus, is there anything that says Molecule Man got his powers and then immediately fought the FF in his first appearance? Could there not have been a few years between getting powers and fighting the FF?
    Last edited by strathcona; 03-26-2023 at 11:56 AM.

  14. #104
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanyoung909 View Post
    I agree with this - I feel the most likely route the revised origin story will take is to connect Monica to the Beyonders and/or the Molecule Man. The sequence reiterating the Molecule Man's origin story has to be here for a reason.

    There is some precedent to taking Monica in this direction - as I'm sure JudicatorPrime has noticed before, Al Ewing has placed the Beyonder Omega Council symbol on Monica's hands before (in Mighty Avengers?).
    Yep, Al Ewing already put in the groundwork for Monica (and Blue Marvel) to be linked to the Beyonders. According to Al, the Beyonders are Omega Servitors (hereafter, BOS) -- infinitely powerful -- created by the Celestials. When Adam and Monica merged in the pages of Ultimates, they appeared with Omega symbols on their hands, the telltale sign of BOS.

    Al Ewing also established that Monica's NextWave storyline was real and not a coincidence. The Beyonder "Debasers" very much chose Monica and others just to toy with her. There must have been a reason why they did it. Safe bet, it's because Monica's powers originate from outside everything, like the Beyonders. She's one of the "many" and I'm betting either a natural blood rivalry or cosmic level pettiness put her on the Debasers' radar.

    Let's not forget what Jason Quantrell, avatar for a Beyonder Debaser, said in the pages of Mighty Avengers:

    We are the Beyond Corporation. "Corporation"--many acting as one. A collective. Incorporation also meaning embodiment. We are an embodiment of the Beyond. The Outside.

    Outside everything you can imagine--in the wild spaces beyond reality--there are others like us. Many like us. Many kinds. Beyonders. Examiners. Normalizers. Gardeners. Debasers.

    Some study you. Some want to preserve you.

    Some of us...play with you. Ha Ha Ha!!! Ask Monica. She knows.
    Keeping it 100, I absolutely prefer this take on Monica's origin over her being a mutant of any kind. This connects her to the fictional universe in a much more profound and intriguing way than her becoming eligible for the next iteration of an X-team.

  15. #105
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    just who are the beyonders, beyond the one guy from the 1980s. There's a council?

    have Monica's powers been expanded here? Shrunken again? Stayed the same? Clarified which version of her was in Nextwave?
    There are multiple Beyonders. The "council" appeared in Al Ewing's recent series Defenders Beyond, which featured Blue Marvel, Loki, Tigra, MAC and Taaia (the mother of Galactus). The origin and nature of the Beyonders, originally called Omega Servitors -- of which Monica is possibly one -- was introduced in this series.
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