Is there any way Wells can turn the negative fan reception around?

[Kevinroc]

It was the 1960s spy craze. Same reason Nick Fury got repurposed from a WW2 soldier to S.H.I.E.L.D. agent, riffing on The Man From U.N.C.L.E.

That's definitely a factor, but I don't think you can totally remove the historical context from when the story was written and what was happening at the time.

[NC_Yankee]

That's definitely a factor, but I don't think you can totally remove the historical context from when the story was written and what was happening at the time.

Of course you can think of Tony Stark during Vietnam

[Kevinroc]

Of course you can think of Tony Stark during Vietnam

Marvel has always been political. It's in their DNA. This is the company that published their new hero punching Hitler in the face on the cover of his first issue. (Which was absolutely a political statement in its era.)

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I'm not a fan of the spy parents. However, I'll say that it's better than not addressing Peter's orphan status at all. Peter sometimes being portrayed as an agnostic orphan is a problem and is unrealistic. And there's been less portrayals of that since the parents reveal, which I think is good.

[Kevinroc]

I think Marvel should just confirm Peter as Jewish instead of coded Jewish. Into the Spider-Verse showed that people are fine with Peter being Jewish.

[Vegeta]

In Amazing Spider-man #200, Spidey intentionally terrorizes the burglar who shot Uncle Ben until he dies from a heart attack. Spidey seems pretty indifferent to the whole experience. (Granted, the burglar pretended to have a heart attack earlier in the issue to fool the wall crawler, so he didn't have reason to suspect it was a real condition, but that doesn't change the fact that Peter uses his spider signal and threats to purposely scare the guy, resulting in death.) If it was Mr. Fear or the Scarecrow using tactics to frighten a person into having a heart attack or accidentally jumping to their doom it would be counted as the villain committing murder, not an accidental death.

[Mister Mets]

In Amazing Spider-man #200, Spidey intentionally terrorizes the burglar who shot Uncle Ben until he dies from a heart attack. Spidey seems pretty indifferent to the whole experience. (Granted, the burglar pretended to have a heart attack earlier in the issue to fool the wall crawler, so he didn't have reason to suspect it was a real condition, but that doesn't change the fact that Peter uses his spider signal and threats to purposely scare the guy, resulting in death.) If it was Mr. Fear or the Scarecrow using tactics to frighten a person into having a heart attack or accidentally jumping to their doom it would be counted as the villain committing murder, not an accidental death.

There are a few distinctions.
- If Scarecrow and Mister Fear intend to kill someone and succeed, it is murder. Spider-Man did not intend to kill anyone.
- The Burglar was in the process of committing crimes. He kidnapped Aunt May, and shot at Spidey.
- Spider-Man was trying to calm down the Burglar, who didn't believe that he would turn him over to the police.

According to people who reviewed this on reddit, Zeb's script for ASM#1 is included in the book and mentions that Paul is supposed to be liked by the audience

https://titanbooks.com/70794-marvels...cript-to-page/

I didn't know about the existence of this until now. I just got it in the mail.

[Huntsman Spider]

In Amazing Spider-man #200, Spidey intentionally terrorizes the burglar who shot Uncle Ben until he dies from a heart attack. Spidey seems pretty indifferent to the whole experience. (Granted, the burglar pretended to have a heart attack earlier in the issue to fool the wall crawler, so he didn't have reason to suspect it was a real condition, but that doesn't change the fact that Peter uses his spider signal and threats to purposely scare the guy, resulting in death.) If it was Mr. Fear or the Scarecrow using tactics to frighten a person into having a heart attack or accidentally jumping to their doom it would be counted as the villain committing murder, not an accidental death.

Didn't Batman do the same thing to Joe Chill in some versions of his backstory once he more fully established himself as the Dark Knight? According to Grant Morrison's version, he even gave Chill back the gun that Chill used to kill his parents, implying that he ought to kill himself with it before Gotham City's other scumbags did him in for his role in creating the vigilante that stalked the night terrorizing them. In the original Golden Age version, said scumbags actually did kill him before he could tell them who Batman was, because they were that pissed off about Batman terrorizing them night after night and from finding out it was basically all Chill's fault that Batman existed in the first place.

[Dangerous]

I fell behind during the pandemic then read 30+ issues in three months. This seemed to be the most relevant recent thread. Here's the first part of my thoughts on recent ASM (#873-900). I'll post my thoughts on #901-915 later this month..


#72
I thought the Kindred saga went on too long. That and the pandemic break meant I lost any momentum of tension by the time I picked up #72. That being said, these last three issues of Nick Spencer’s run were overall satisfying for me. One subtle yet significant retcon I don’t mind too much is that all of Norman/Harry’s misery stems from Norman doing a deal with Mephisto in the Mendel Stromm days. It makes sense of years of convoluted evil schemes and the Osborns eternal bad luck, whilst ALSO showing that Norman was always an evil bastard as he signed his son’s soul away for success.

I’ve seen some readers say they dislike this as it dilutes Norman’s ingenuity of being a self made man and the happenstance of the GG being born, but there’s no way to nail down what exactly was a result of the deal and what would have happened anyway.

The way I read it was that GG would have always happened but Oscorp’s success & Harry’s tragic existence (and maybe Norman’s decent into madness) were the sole components of the deal. I also think you can look at this a bit like the Spider Totem destiny for Pete to get bitten vs it being an accident. Both version of events can coexist without erasing the other…. Whether Norman ever made a deal with Mephisto or not his life was clearly being guided by an evil force. Whether that came from within himself or the devil is irrelevant as they are one and the same.

#73
Read this with no anticipation of what the issue would contain… Gwen’s character restored (!) and BND Harry revealed to be a clone (!), WOW! The two biggest fixes to Spidey lore in the last 20 years. Amazing, very happy with this. Whilst OMD is the worst idea ever I always felt that Sins Past was the most insulting. Glad it has finally been fixed. The third great thing this issue did was make Gabriel and Sarah tragic villains I could actually be interested in. And the icing on the cake was JRJR’s 20 year 9/11 tribute.

#875
This was a suitably epic conclusion to Kindred. Unlike others I did not expect OMD to be undone but perhaps at-least the seeds for that to be planted… which I don’t think we got. Were Spencer’s original plans vetoed by the editorial? It certainly seems that way… The awesomely romantic cover by Patrick Gleason sure looks like Webs and Red are celebrating something, and I swear the fantastic final splash page by Ramos was intended to be MJ accepting Peter’s marriage proposal.

The variety of artists on this issue helped maintain momentum and kept things fresh. I liked that this was a battle for Harry’s soul but this meant ‘Kindred’ themselves felt like a diluted and slightly confused enemy (and waste of a cool character design as they were killed off) since Kindred were fighting for the perceived grievances of their tortured existence, which was actually a post death scheme of Harry’s evil AI, which was actually a channeling of Mephisto’s will… LOL. Of course this did also add to the wonderful convoluted balls deep comicbookyness of it all. If you’re into that sorta thing, which I am.

One trope that plagues modern Spidey comics, that we see here and it reoccurs in the Tombstone & Vulture arcs… is this orgiastic revelling in Peter getting beaten down by his enemies and then much less pages/panel space given to when Spidey returns the favour. Page after page of Peter getting beaten to a pulp…. It feels to me like Slott, Spencer and later Wells don’t actually LIKE Spider-Man. They don’t want to empower the reader and instead there is perhaps some deep seated resentment towards Spider-Man… For what exactly? Your guess is as good as mine.

Then we having the cliched modern trope of Spidey getting saved by one of his friends/collegaes mid-battle, in this case Mary Jane. It was atleast kinda cool the way she was incorporated into the story by Dr Strange.

Ugh, the Spider-Girl May Parker panel near the end.... For a brief momment, Spencer hints that SPIDER-MAN HIMSELF is the saviour of the species or linchpin to success in humans fighting back against a possible future invasion of hell's forces.... Seeing this panel my chest swells with pride and a feeling of awesome badassery.. And then the very next page it has to be underminded and veetoed to instead elevate a female/alternate reality/knock off version of Spidey to this position. Soooo pathetic. Spidey can't even be the hero in his own book... Instead let's give that to a charcater that is totally unworthy and irrelevant to pop culture, presumably, just because she's female.

The elephant in the room- Will OMD ever be undone? The fact that they avoid even acknowledging OMD in a story involving Spidey and Mephisto feels forced and awkward. Just like how OMD itself was forced and awkward. Even if the editorial never want Pete and MJ to re-marry, they could at-least ALLOW Pete/MJ to find out that they WERE married and how/why it was erased… But therein lies the catch 22 for them,- if they were to allow that then there would be no logical reason for them to not re-marry, which as most of us know is how it should be.

In the run upto and including ASM#1000 I feel like something really significant has to happen to justify the milestone and celebrate/progress the mythos. I say let Peter age past 30 for the love god!….(If we go by the idea of 50 issues per year he’d be 33 now which I think works great) …. have a numbered birthday in the 900’s to show he is a bit older, allow Peter and MJ to remarry and have kids (not holding my breath for that!) one epic final battle in #1000 and if they wanted- let Peter retire and pass the baton to Miles- see how that goes. If it doesn’t work you can always reboot down the line. I just don’t see the point of a story if there is no end or even progression.

Since 2007 there has been no real progression- Just regression. Gimmick after gimmick, continual resets, the occasional good or great story and the unfortunate smoothing off of the rougher edges of Peter’s personality and charm. At least Nick Spencer fixed some of the worst retcons of the last 20 years and reunited Peter and MJ, so he gets my vote for that. Now we seem to be stuck with Zombie Charlie Brown/Simpson's Spider-Man.

Beyond

I was down for Ben Reilly taking up the mantle for 6 months but the execution of this story left a lot to be desired. Random thoughts… First issue you already roughly know how it’s going to end- Beyond will be nefarious and it’ll all go **** up… The top of the Beyond building looked cool and is probably not easy to draw… Miles Morales current costume is awful… Aside from the first battle with the U-Foes I didn’t feel like there were any cool fights/missions for Ben… WTF was that monster in the basement of Pete’s hospital? Is that thread ever gonna be revisited? Or is Pete OK with it eating people?

This story didn’t need to be 18 issues or whatever it was, could have easily been told in 12…. Felt like the story was dragged out with 3 issues a month so the book could hit #900 in summer ‘22… The rotation of artists was quite jarring- Gleason is the best, Pichelli the weakest…. Pichelli either can’t draw backgrounds due to relying on 3D models in her USM days or can’t draw em in time for deadlines…. I have other issues with her artwork but I’ll leave it at that… The two female sparring partners for Ben at Beyond did nothing for me… The supervillain factory fight (I think at Statten Island) near the end of the story.. don’t know who the artist was but it was sloppy as hell…. That’s their style? Yea got that it, it’s just not for me bub.

Ben’s memory’s being wiped and the horror imagery of black hollow faces in his memories/dreams was threaded through the story well and I found to be intriguing… But I didn’t like where Ben- Chasm ends up. There’s a lot of fan love for Ben and I feel like he has been through enough misery. If it was my call I’d give him his own ‘Spectacular Spider-Man’ ongoing set in Chicago where he has stability and get’s to be his own legit webslinger.

[Dangerous]

Relaunch/Tombstone Arc

It’s aways cool to see JRJR back on the book, even if perhaps these days he’s past his prime. But overall I did not like this…. It’s so predictable and pathetic that Pete and MJ are separated again, after only seven months ago #875 proclaimed them to be ‘Unbreakable’ and ‘the best couple in comics’. 20 years ago Quesada didn’t like the marriage or Pete/MJ as a couple, and now in 2022 we have the same problem with CB Cebulski and co…. I think to myself- ‘What is wrong with these people?’ Is it because MJ is the hussy/party-girl turned supermodel that they find her distasteful? (All reasons I like her) But these were masks she wore to deal with family trauma… wearing a mask like Peter- Parallel Lives.

Do they dislike her because she was a loyal wife to Pete for years as their characters matured and they prefer Pete to stay stagnant like Charlie Brown? Is it because she has an actual personality? Is it because she is way more interesting than Gwen? Probably all of the above. I’m guessing the kids are not biologically MJ’s due to their age (unless they’re gonna vindictively trash her character now that Gwen has been redeemed), and the little girl’s red hair is just to throw you off. I didn’t like ‘Paul’ paying a bill for Peter, as this just emasculates Peter. The only part of the story I enjoyed was in #4 when Spidey smashed a vault door open and flattened the Rose’s men. Even if it did benefit Tombstone. That sequence felt like Zeb Well’s throwing us a bone, as if he said to himself- ‘OK, I can’t have Pete be COMEPLETELY useless for the whole five issues, I gotta give them SOMETHING.’

Probably the most distasteful aspect of this arc was that after Lincoln crushed Spidey’s ribs early in the story, there was no payback for this in #5. No fight between the two even tho a Spidey v TS fight was depicted on the cover of #5! It’s like editorial knew a fight was expected and logical but didn’t want to do that, so they clickbaited the customer by putting one on the cover. Instead we get a soft Spider-Man who sympathises with Lonnie’s rough childhood in the final issue instead of returning the broken ribs at the end of an organic fight and webbing him to the ceiling. Reading this scene play out it made me feel- ‘URGH’ …. This is pathetic.

And this is also how a hardened thug like TS would feel about Spidey…. Gangsters,- like wild animals only respect violence and strength. In his mind he destroyed Spider-Man and there was no consequence. The modern platitude of ‘be empathetic’ has no currency in the criminal underworld. It would only be seen as weakness. When we get RIGHT DOWN to the bones of it (Modern Marvel may not like this), but Superhero comics traditionally (which means when they are working correctly) and Marvel comics historically, at their core- is all about male empowerment. If females read them- great, the more the merrier, but the culture we see at Marvel Comics and Marvel Studios today is one that DOES NOT EVEN LIKE IT'S CHARCATERS/HISTORY and the true portrayals of these charcaters.

Thor is turned into a walking joke/parody in Thor 4, Black Widow's back story has the (non existant) 'mysognistic elements' scrubbed from her history in the BW film, Hulk is turned into some kind of passive hipster in the MCU (nothing like Peter David's 'Proffesor Hulk').... Punisher's Skull emblem and guns have been taken away (...WTF) Peter Parker is portrayed as walking on eggshells around 'MJ' in Spidey PS4 .... it goes on and on...

I recently finished reading Michelinie/McFarlane Spidey Omnibus and Peter is practically a different person to who he is today in comics/games/films. He actually gets angry when MJ get’s kicked out of Bedford Towers and violently grabs the informant… (something he would never do today because he is so passive) Peter is actually masculine here. It's so refreshing to see. THIS is my favourite charcater of all time- Not the stand in we have today. Not only because he is much more masculine but he also seems like much more of a REAL person, a fully fleshed out character instead of a wussified empty vessel as he often comes across as these days.

In the Michilinie comics sometimes Pete has a bit of attitude towards even allies like Silver Sable if they maybe assume too much compliance…. (God I hated how weak Peter was in PS4 in his interactions with Sable, made me want to puke. He should have webbed her to the wall when she started giving him too much attitude. )

900

Probably the weakest ASM centennial issue to date, not that it was a bad issue- it was pretty good. Ed Mcguiness on Spidey? Hell yes this was cool and the Sinister Adaptoid was an impressive beast that played to EM’s strengths as an artist- drawing Hulks. Story-wise nothing too earth shaking, just a fun, huge, old school team up fight with a twist … The main theme it was driving home (as far as I remember)- ‘No one dies no matter what’ under Spidey’s watch. Yea we’ve been there before… A reaffirmation of what makes him a hero then, only now this extends beyond living beings and to AI’s as well? Errr right.

Spidey appears to shed a tear (?) when the Living Brain is unplugged and the AI ‘dies’. As previously stated I don’t like this feminisation of male heroes and it’s a problem throughout films, videogames and comics today. Spidey was not written this way prior to 2000 and he even acknowledges this shift earlier in the issue he ‘used to be different’ I also didn’t like how in the goofy library back up story we have yet another jab at Ayn Rand, which we have seen a few times now in Modern Spidey comics. What exactly it is about Ayn Rand’s message that current Marvel staff find so distasteful?

Is it that she believed in absolute right/wrongs? That one’s art was the highest possible calling? That all the value that could be attained from one’s art is solely rooted in the creation of it, rather than any accolades or later discussion? No it's most likely because she was (with good reason) an outspoken opponent of Socialism and Communism. Well, like it or not, Ditko's soul went into Spider-Man and Lee and Ditko were both ARDENT anti-communists. That TRUE soul of Spider-Man exists to this day no matter how much post modernists distort him... Ready to be tapped into again by worthy creators with a vision which will therefore be 10x more authentic.

I personally always loved that scene in ASM#38 when Peter looks on with disdain at the student protesters 'protesting tonight's protest meeting'. LOL. He can see they're basically useful idiots- most likely applying political pressure to causes that are ultimately not in their best interests in the long run, and he's got real world problems to deal with.

[NC_Yankee]

I think Marvel should just confirm Peter as Jewish instead of coded Jewish. Into the Spider-Verse showed that people are fine with Peter being Jewish.

Parker is not a Jewish name. Ben Grimm is Jewish and proud of it. Plus go back to the wedding there was no Mazel Tov spoken.

[Refrax5]

Relaunch/Tombstone Arc

It’s aways cool to see JRJR back on the book, even if perhaps these days he’s past his prime. But overall I did not like this…. It’s so predictable and pathetic that Pete and MJ are separated again, after only seven months ago #875 proclaimed them to be ‘Unbreakable’ and ‘the best couple in comics’. 20 years ago Quesada didn’t like the marriage or Pete/MJ as a couple, and now in 2022 we have the same problem with CB Cebulski and co…. I think to myself- ‘What is wrong with these people?’ Is it because MJ is the hussy/party-girl turned supermodel that they find her distasteful? (All reasons I like her) But these were masks she wore to deal with family trauma… wearing a mask like Peter- Parallel Lives.

Do they dislike her because she was a loyal wife to Pete for years as their characters matured and they prefer Pete to stay stagnant like Charlie Brown? Is it because she has an actual personality? Is it because she is way more interesting than Gwen? Probably all of the above. I’m guessing the kids are not biologically MJ’s due to their age (unless they’re gonna vindictively trash her character now that Gwen has been redeemed), and the little girl’s red hair is just to throw you off. I didn’t like ‘Paul’ paying a bill for Peter, as this just emasculates Peter. The only part of the story I enjoyed was in #4 when Spidey smashed a vault door open and flattened the Rose’s men. Even if it did benefit Tombstone. That sequence felt like Zeb Well’s throwing us a bone, as if he said to himself- ‘OK, I can’t have Pete be COMEPLETELY useless for the whole five issues, I gotta give them SOMETHING.’

Probably the most distasteful aspect of this arc was that after Lincoln crushed Spidey’s ribs early in the story, there was no payback for this in #5. No fight between the two even tho a Spidey v TS fight was depicted on the cover of #5! It’s like editorial knew a fight was expected and logical but didn’t want to do that, so they clickbaited the customer by putting one on the cover. Instead we get a soft Spider-Man who sympathises with Lonnie’s rough childhood in the final issue instead of returning the broken ribs at the end of an organic fight and webbing him to the ceiling. Reading this scene play out it made me feel- ‘URGH’ …. This is pathetic.

And this is also how a hardened thug like TS would feel about Spidey…. Gangsters,- like wild animals only respect violence and strength. In his mind he destroyed Spider-Man and there was no consequence. The modern platitude of ‘be empathetic’ has no currency in the criminal underworld. It would only be seen as weakness. When we get RIGHT DOWN to the bones of it (Modern Marvel may not like this), but Superhero comics traditionally (which means when they are working correctly) and Marvel comics historically, at their core- is all about male empowerment. If females read them- great, the more the merrier, but the culture we see at Marvel Comics and Marvel Studios today is one that DOES NOT EVEN LIKE IT'S CHARCATERS/HISTORY and the true portrayals of these charcaters.

Thor is turned into a walking joke/parody in Thor 4, Black Widow's back story has the (non existant) 'mysognistic elements' scrubbed from her history in the BW film, Hulk is turned into some kind of passive hipster in the MCU (nothing like Peter David's 'Proffesor Hulk').... Punisher's Skull emblem and guns have been taken away (...WTF) Peter Parker is portrayed as walking on eggshells around 'MJ' in Spidey PS4 .... it goes on and on...

I recently finished reading Michelinie/McFarlane Spidey Omnibus and Peter is practically a different person to who he is today in comics/games/films. He actually gets angry when MJ get’s kicked out of Bedford Towers and violently grabs the informant… (something he would never do today because he is so passive) Peter is actually masculine here. It's so refreshing to see. THIS is my favourite charcater of all time- Not the stand in we have today. Not only because he is much more masculine but he also seems like much more of a REAL person, a fully fleshed out character instead of a wussified empty vessel as he often comes across as these days.

In the Michilinie comics sometimes Pete has a bit of attitude towards even allies like Silver Sable if they maybe assume too much compliance…. (God I hated how weak Peter was in PS4 in his interactions with Sable, made me want to puke. He should have webbed her to the wall when she started giving him too much attitude. )

900

Probably the weakest ASM centennial issue to date, not that it was a bad issue- it was pretty good. Ed Mcguiness on Spidey? Hell yes this was cool and the Sinister Adaptoid was an impressive beast that played to EM’s strengths as an artist- drawing Hulks. Story-wise nothing too earth shaking, just a fun, huge, old school team up fight with a twist … The main theme it was driving home (as far as I remember)- ‘No one dies no matter what’ under Spidey’s watch. Yea we’ve been there before… A reaffirmation of what makes him a hero then, only now this extends beyond living beings and to AI’s as well? Errr right.

Spidey appears to shed a tear (?) when the Living Brain is unplugged and the AI ‘dies’. As previously stated I don’t like this feminisation of male heroes and it’s a problem throughout films, videogames and comics today. Spidey was not written this way prior to 2000 and he even acknowledges this shift earlier in the issue he ‘used to be different’ I also didn’t like how in the goofy library back up story we have yet another jab at Ayn Rand, which we have seen a few times now in Modern Spidey comics. What exactly it is about Ayn Rand’s message that current Marvel staff find so distasteful?

Is it that she believed in absolute right/wrongs? That one’s art was the highest possible calling? That all the value that could be attained from one’s art is solely rooted in the creation of it, rather than any accolades or later discussion? No it's most likely because she was (with good reason) an outspoken opponent of Socialism and Communism. Well, like it or not, Ditko's soul went into Spider-Man and Lee and Ditko were both ARDENT anti-communists. That TRUE soul of Spider-Man exists to this day no matter how much post modernists distort him... Ready to be tapped into again by worthy creators with a vision which will therefore be 10x more authentic.

I personally always loved that scene in ASM#38 when Peter looks on with disdain at the student protesters 'protesting tonight's protest meeting'. LOL. He can see they're basically useful idiots- most likely applying political pressure to causes that are ultimately not in their best interests in the long run, and he's got real world problems to deal with.

"Feminisation of male heroes"....defending Rand...in all that indulgent rambling, these two ridiculous parts stand out the most. What a waste of time reading all that goofy crap. Anybody this concerned about comic characters not being masculine because they show empathy and aren't violent enough is a profoundly sad and insecure person.

[Daibhidh]

Gilgamesh, the first hero in world literature, cries over Enkidu.
Achilles, the first hero in European literature, cries over Patroclus.

[Dangerous]

not being masculine because they show empathy and aren't violent enough is a profoundly sad and insecure person.

I didn’t say that.
And name calling aside, I take it you have no counter arguments nor can explain your problem with Rand?

[CrimsonEchidna]

So the Joe Kelly 2-parter confirmed my belief that this honestly goes beyond Wells. The direction Amazing is going with Pete's characterization is clearly an editorial driven one at this point. In fact, a lot of this run feels like a direct response to Spencer flying to close to the sun in wanting to restore all the old status quos he wanted.