Is there any way Wells can turn the negative fan reception around?

[Kevinroc]

By other writers? Yes. By Stan and Steve themselves? No (see my above response to WebLurker).

Peter is from Forest Hills, a historically Jewish neighborhood. That's about as "coded Jewish" as you're going to get.

And then Stan wrote the story of Peter's biological parents, which can very easily be read as taking inspiration from the Rosenbergs.

There's a reason the Spider-Verse production team said Peter B. Parker was Jewish.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Peter is from Forest Hills, a historically Jewish neighborhood. That's about as "coded Jewish" as you're going to get.

And then Stan wrote the story of Peter's biological parents, which can very easily be read as taking inspiration from the Rosenbergs.

There's a reason the Spider-Verse production team said Peter B. Parker was Jewish.

I grew up in an Italian area and have an Italian-sounding name, but no one in my family is Italian. Stuff like that is too vague to pin down a character as coded of a particular ethnicity.

We know Ditko wasn't Jewish, and we know thanks to Riesman's research that Stan didn't have a strong sense of Jewish identity like Kirby. Which of the co-creators would have coded him Jewish then?

We also know that Ditko was Spidey's primary creator, not Stan... which isn't to say that Stan wasn't a co-creator... just that Spidey has a bit more Ditko in him than Stan. Which further makes it unlikely that the Lee/Ditko Spidey was coded Jewish.

[Kevinroc]

I grew up in an Italian area and have an Italian-sounding name, but no one in my family is Italian. Stuff like that is too vague to pin down a character as coded of a particular ethnicity.

We know Ditko wasn't Jewish, and we know thanks to Riesman's research that Stan didn't have a strong sense of Jewish identity like Kirby. Which of the co-creators would have coded him Jewish then?

We also know that Ditko was Spidey's primary creator, not Stan... which isn't to say that Stan wasn't a co-creator... just that Spidey has a bit more Ditko in him than Stan. Which further makes it unlikely that the Lee/Ditko Spidey was coded Jewish.

You're putting too much of yourself into the reading regarding Forest Hills to try to deny any chance the character could be coded Jewish.

As for Stan's sense of his Jewish identity, you have to remember the era in which he grew up, the fact that he was a different person than Jack Kirby, and the fact that he was primarily out there trying to sell these characters to the public. Neither you nor I actually know what his sense of identity was.

There's a reason the Spider-Verse production team said Peter B. Parker was Jewish. They didn't pull that out of thin air.

I don't know why you are fighting this idea that "Spider-Man is coded Jewish" so strongly. This is starting to read like "there is no way Spider-Man is Jewish" and, I gotta be honest, it's not a good look.

[Daibhidh]

It seems to me that like a lot of Silver Age superheroes Peter is coded both Jewish and Wasp.
Aunt May however explicitly attends church. (I had this idea she was Protestant but Reilly is an Irish surname. The church in Amazing Spider-Man 290, as I have it to hand, is either Roman Catholic or Episcopalian. Not that you can trust popular culture to distinguish between even RC and Baptists.)

[Kaitou D. Kid]

You're putting too much of yourself into the reading regarding Forest Hills to try to deny any chance the character could be coded Jewish.

As for Stan's sense of his Jewish identity, you have to remember the era in which he grew up, the fact that he was a different person than Jack Kirby, and the fact that he was primarily out there trying to sell these characters to the public. Neither you nor I actually know what his sense of identity was.

There's a reason the Spider-Verse production team said Peter B. Parker was Jewish. They didn't pull that out of thin air.

I don't know why you are fighting this idea that "Spider-Man is coded Jewish" so strongly. This is starting to read like "there is no way Spider-Man is Jewish" and, I gotta be honest, it's not a good look.

Have you read Riesman's work on Stan? We actually do know a bit about Stan's sense of Jewish identity. We know he walked away from Judaism completely (both the religion and culture), baptized his daughter, and that he "wanted to get away from it all" (paraphrase from his brother).

Again, this is all in Riesman's book and article if you want to read more about it.
https://jewishcurrents.org/this-is-n...iage.%E2%80%9D
Riesman is a journalist and a person with a strong sense of Jewish identity who researched Stan more than anyone else.

I used to believe that Spidey was coded Jewish too. It wasn't until I read Riesman's biography when I learned he wasn't. Two or three years ago, I would have said the same thing as you. It would make sense if it wasn't for all the information we learned in recent years.

It bugs me because it's disrespectful to both creators, but especially to Ditko. Think about it... the subtext of "616 Spider-Man was coded Jewish" is "Stan Lee had bigger input on Spider-Man than Ditko." (Which we know is not true.) There is no other conclusion you can draw from that. Don't you see how it functions as Ditko downplaying/erasure? I get that that's not the intent - it still serves that function, though.

It's also disrespectful to Stan because we should respect how he saw his sense of identity. No different than respecting people's pronouns.

[Kevinroc]

Have you read Riesman's work on Stan? We actually do know a bit about Stan's sense of Jewish identity. We know he walked away from Judaism completely (both the religion and culture), baptized his daughter, and that he "wanted to get away from it all" (paraphrase from his brother).

Again, this is all in Riesman's book and article if you want to read more about it.
https://jewishcurrents.org/this-is-n...iage.%E2%80%9D
Riesman is a journalist and a person with a strong sense of Jewish identity who researched Stan more than anyone else.

I used to believe that Spidey was coded Jewish too. It wasn't until I read Riesman's biography when I learned he wasn't. Two or three years ago, I would have said the same thing as you. It would make sense if it wasn't for all the information we learned in recent years.

It bugs me because it's disrespectful to both creators, but especially to Ditko. Think about it... the subtext of "616 Spider-Man was coded Jewish" is "Stan Lee had bigger input on Spider-Man than Ditko." (Which we know is not true.) There is no other conclusion you can draw from that. Don't you see how it functions as Ditko downplaying/erasure? I get that that's not the intent - it still serves that function, though.

It's also disrespectful to Stan because we should respect how he saw his sense of identity. No different than respecting people's pronouns.

While you raise some interesting points, I think it's dangerous to even deny the interpretation that Spider-Man is coded Jewish. In a world filled with antisemitism, it doesn't look good to say that even a reading that a character might be Jewish is incorrect.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

While you raise some interesting points, I think it's dangerous to even deny the interpretation that Spider-Man is coded Jewish. In a world filled with antisemitism, it doesn't look good to say that even a reading that a character might be Jewish is incorrect.

Sure, but reading is different from creator intent, though. You can make a strong argument that Spidey's experiences overlap with a lot of Jewish people's experiences. (As well as with a lot of other people's experiences - black people, neurodivergent people, etc.) But that's different than saying "[blank] is what the creators of the character actually intended."

[Kevinroc]

Sure, but reading is different from creator intent, though. You can make a strong argument that Spidey's experiences overlap with a lot of Jewish people's experiences. (As well as with a lot of other people's experiences - black people, neurodivergent people, etc.) But that's different than saying "[blank] is what the creators of the character actually intended."

Does it make a reading any less valid if it wasn't what the creators intended?

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Does it make a reading any less valid if it wasn't what the creators intended?

Definitely not.

[Huntsman Spider]

It seems to me that like a lot of Silver Age superheroes Peter is coded both Jewish and Wasp.
Aunt May however explicitly attends church. (I had this idea she was Protestant but Reilly is an Irish surname. The church in Amazing Spider-Man 290, as I have it to hand, is either Roman Catholic or Episcopalian. Not that you can trust popular culture to distinguish between even RC and Baptists.)

And one of Mary Jane Watson's relatives gifted her (the use of) a castle in Scotland for her and Peter's honeymoon in the graphic novel "Spirits of the Earth," which would indicate she's of Scottish heritage. Speaking of Irish heritage, though, Peter's (birth) mother's maiden name was Fitzgerald, which is an Irish surname as well, at least as far as I know.

[Daibhidh]

My memory of Spirits of the Earth is that MJ actually inherited a cottage in Scotland from relatives named MacLeod. (Although we all know her mother's maiden name is Jones.)

[Huntsman Spider]

My memory of Spirits of the Earth is that MJ actually inherited a cottage in Scotland from relatives named MacLeod. (Although we all know her mother's maiden name is Jones.)

Oh, it was a cottage and she inherited it? Ok, then. Well, one of her mother's relatives could have married someone named MacLeod . . . and that name gives me Highlander flashbacks.

[Dangerous]

Ayn Rand was against altruism, which seems to run counter to the entire raison dÂ’etre of SpideyÂ’s whole character.

Well that depends what we mean by 'altruism'. My layman's understanding of the term was 'doing good for the sake of doing good'. Similarly, google defines altruism as (a) 'disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others.' This certainly falls inline with 'With great power comes great responsibility'.

Rand's definition of altruism however, seems to have a crucial difference- 'The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence'.... Obviously this is not the case with Peter Parker. Whilst his great responsibility is his primary motivation in life, it's not his only one- he also strives for, rightly so, his own personal happiness outside of Spider-Man. That's the first difference.

Google's definition is a great thing to strive for if you have the ability (as Spidey does) to make a difference. Rand's definition? yea I would be apposed to that version of 'altruism' also.

Another aspect worth observing is that since Peter has superpowers, this completely changes his moral duty to society compared to a normal man and thus makes any of Rand's judgments (all based on normal men/women) whether right or wrong less applicable.

[Dangerous]

Take it down to Prager U, dude. If you're not familiar with why Rand is a terrible person to listen to, there are plenty of people out there who can articulate it better than I can. As for the rest of your views, they seem more aligned with someone like Flash Thompson and even he moved past that infantile macho crap.

I feel like a MRA meeting might be better suited for these weird rants. I'm not going to waste my time in bad faith arguments with somebody writing essays whining about Spider-Man crying being effeminate.

I have as much right as anyone here to express my views on Spidey comics until the mods find an excuse to ban me. I have given CLEAR examples of how Peter Parker and Spider-Man were written differently pre-2000 (Spidey himself even acknowledges this in #900, it's not really up for debate whether he is or not).. and my disdain for this modern writing style.

This seems to have triggered you as you'd prefer persons such as myself not to express these views. In order to try and achieve this you first tried school yard name calling, and now you're throwing around names like 'PragerU' and 'MRA' as a shaming tactic (which obviously doesn't work on me) as in your circles these are accepted 'bad things' and people who ascribe to them are 'bad people' who's opinions can discarded without consideration.

I don't happen to think PragerU or MRA are 'bad things', but we both know that since you offered them up in bad faith (as another attempted attack on my character), you would be unable & uninterested to explain to me in PM what is wrong with them. Just as you are unable to offer any counter argument to my criticisms of the last 40 plus issues of ASM.

[Dangerous]

He was Stan's avatar. (Paradoxically, so was Jameson.) Peter was even from Forest Hills, which is historically speaking, a Jewish neighborhood in Queens.

That's like saying Spawn is Todd McFarlane's avatar, Al Simmons shouldn't be black;- he should be a white Canadian guy.

The Rosenbergs were a big point of discussion in Jewish communities in the 1960s. All evidence pointed to them being traitors, but that wasn't the reaction within Jewish communities at the time. The entire story of Richard and Mary Parker makes a lot more sense when you make that connection (of course, the evidence pointing to them being traitors is why Marvel wants to distance themselves from people making that connection, so I don't blame them). The Parkers were Stan's statement on the matter at the time.

That doesn't mean The Parkers were Jewish.

Marvel is never going to say Peter is Jewish. But there's a reason the Spider-Verse production team had a Jewish Peter in their movies.

I'm guessing as a tribute to Stan?

If Marvel have no problem announcing other Marvel heroes as Jewish, why would it be a problem with Spider-Man? I'm guessing because Stan and Steve never intended Peter to be Jewish. Parker is an English name, Reilly is an Irish name and there have never been any hints of Jewish heritage in Spidey comics.

A better question would be why on Earth would you want him to be announced as Jewish? I'm afraid as much as it pains Marvel and some fans- Peter is a straight white male, which probably explains why they constantly crap on his character these days. Plus why they hate MJ- being a hot redhead.

Fun fact- the film contract between Marvel and Sony states that Peter Parker can only be portrayed as a straight white male and these characteristics cannot be changed.