Is there any way Wells can turn the negative fan reception around?

[Spider-Tiger]

Maybe the people who didn't like Zeb Wells are right. Here's his wife hitting on someone else.

I had absolutely no idea that Heidi Gardner was married to him. Love her on SNL.

[Spider-Tiger]

The X-books were mainly in stasis for a few years before Hickman. This was mainly due to publisher decrees since Marvel/ Disney higher-ups didn't really want to give new storylines to rival studio Fox. It's a whole other discussion since the earlier runs had issues (the Morrison New X-Men run, and Whedon/ Cassady Astonishing X-Men were hits but the rest did not reach that level) and Marvel kinda pushed Hickman away because his story would have changed the new status quo too much, and they wanted to play around with it for a while.

There have been plenty of periods of stasis in most comics series, for a variety of reasons. With Spider-Man, there's an argument that the first 150 issues (the Stan Lee and Gerry Conway runs) showed major change, but then nothing really happened to Peter Parker in Len Wein's run and Marv Wolfman and Roger Stern were big proponents of the illusion of change.

I don't think periods of stasis are the same thing as "illusion of change" or stories being stuck in an endless loop as we were discussing. Periods of stasis are to be expected in a decompressed story. But "illusion of change" implies that every progression is followed by regression to an original status quo.

Wein continued the progression established by Conway. Even if he didn't quite build on it, he still continues the forward trajectory of the series. He honored Gwen's death and MJs character development afterward.

Wolfman's, I'll give you, was absolutely a period of character regression. But Stern's was another period of progression as he continued to build on Conway's story developments and even tried to make sense of Wolfman's regression. (Stern and Conway have both advocated for the "illusion of change" but neither have practiced what they preach.)

But the general pattern of Spider-man's storytelling up until OMD is a forward trajectory: Peter finishes High School and college, Peter and Flash grew up and became friends, Gwen died, Harry settled down with Liz and had a child, Peter finally confided in MJ about being Spider-man, MJ grew up and grew past the party girl facade, Peter married MJ, Harry died and finally put his father's demons to rest, etc. None of that is "illusion of change." That's real character development.

Then in the 90s, when they tried to start getting rid of the marriage, things became screwy. Norman was revived. Aunt May died and then came back. JMS brought the story back on track and then OMD came along and was the final nail in the coffin for story progression.

[Sr. Bungle]

Maybe the people who didn't like Zeb Wells are right. Here's his wife hitting on someone else.

Blocked in my country sadly

[Lukmendes]

It was a cute joke when the Avengers first talked of recruiting him. She just hated him because wasps hate spiders. It was dumb.

Attachment 128930

Was done in another story before this too, which made it clear the feeling was mutual:



(Tales to Astonish#57).

It's actually a bit weird too, 'cause for most of the story they don't really care about each other, and Janet is the one who stops a fight between Spidey and Hank from continuing, then suddenly at the end we get the "natural enemies" nonsense lol.

But yeah, was just a dumb joke which was gone after a while, and hell, she showed up in Peter David's Spectacular, and while Spidey has the reputation of irritating other heroes, she was the one who annoyed him instead lol:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...1664005588.jpg





(Spectacular#106).

To be fair, it should be possible to tell stories of MJ with friends who share her ambitions, especially in the context of a film project.

One question is whether this will get too meta, with the focus on art in the context of a superhero universe. Would this be the equivalent of the Star Trek spinoff episodes set on the Holodeck, which some critics suggest implies that their adventures aren't exciting enough for them.

A counterview is that the entertainment industry is a major source of interest, and a major supporting character with connections to that world could be a story engine.

Eh, wouldn't be the first time MJ is used to comment on things about writing, she specifically was used to comment on how female love interests have little personality, twice, by different writers, with years of difference, and the last one was just from four years ago:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...1468811913.jpg

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...1468811913.jpg

(ASM#44 vol 2)

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...1571878687.jpg

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...1571878687.jpg

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...1571878687.jpg

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...1571878687.jpg

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...1571878687.jpg

(Amazing Mary Jane#1).

Maybe the people who didn't like Zeb Wells are right. Here's his wife hitting on someone else.

Fucking hell I'm surprised SNL is something people watch, this is almost anti-humor lol.

Blocked in my country sadly

It's just a joke sketch from Saturday Night Live.

You can always use a VPN in case you have one, but I wouldn't recommend it lol.

[The BaRoN]

Literally the only way back is either with him leaving the book or giving us the marriage back.

Everything else is utter nonsense now and the sales show it.

This whole run is edgy try hard that makes the 90s seem like the 60s in comparison.

[Matt Rat]

Egghead! I remember when he seized control of the Bugle in one of the last newspaper storylines

[Spider-Tiger]

.

Marv Wolfman and Roger Stern were big proponents of the illusion of change.

To expand on how problematic the "illusion of change" idea has become for American comic books:

Each Spider-man run 1962 to 2007 essentially reads today like its own novel in an ongoing saga. It's almost akin to the Harry Potter novels. Even if that wasn't the initial intention, that's how those stories read to Gen Z and beyond now that back issues have been archived online and character biographies are readily available on Marvel.com or Wikipedia to fill in the gaps. The "illusion of change" concept is as if J.K Rowling published 3 or 4 Harry Potter books and then decided that she wanted to stop developing characters and progressing the story in future novels.

And the young fans that invest time researching and catching up on older story arcs? Those are the high investment customers and the potential loyal readership that you want to attract and keep. Not the kid who saw Spidey in a movie or tv show and decided to arbitrarily pick up a comic book without any context. That is a low investment customer (And tbh they're unlikely to even attract that type of customer nowadays when comic books aren't sold in big box stores and other forms of media...like video games... are far more likely to entice a younger audience)

That's what older readers and writers like Brevoort, Cebulski, Lowe, Slott, and Wells don't understand. For them, it probably took months to years to piece together a single subplot and they probably had to do so without a lot of backstory and context. But the demographics have shifted and instead of ignoring the fanbase, they should probably pay attention. The fact that the entire market continues on a steady decline suggests that whatever they're currently doing just isn't working and it would probably behoove them to try something else.

As Tinker Spider has pointed out, the manga, anime, YA novels, film franchises etc. that all build on continuity and story progression to foster investment from the audience have become massive sellers in the last two decades. Whereas american superhero comic books that have stagnated continue to hemorrhage.

Nowadays, no one cares to read about the Hardy Boys mystery of the month. It's the serialized fiction of Star Wars, MCU, Harry Potter, Dragon Ball, Sailor Moon, the Hunger Games, Invincible, the Arkham games and all of the ongoing dramas of Netflix, HBO, Hulu, etc. that sell.

[PCN24454]

To expand on how problematic the "illusion of change" idea has become for American comic books:

Each Spider-man run 1962 to 2007 essentially reads today like its own novel in an ongoing saga. It's almost akin to the Harry Potter novels. Even if that wasn't the initial intention, that's how those stories read to Gen Z and beyond now that back issues have been archived online and character biographies are readily available on Marvel.com or Wikipedia to fill in the gaps. The "illusion of change" concept is as if J.K Rowling published 3 or 4 Harry Potter books and then decided that she wanted to stop developing characters and progressing the story in future novels.

And the young fans that invest time researching and catching up on older story arcs? Those are the high investment customers and the potential loyal readership that you want to attract and keep. Not the kid who saw Spidey in a movie or tv show and decided to arbitrarily pick up a comic book without any context. That is a low investment customer (And tbh they're unlikely to even attract that type of customer nowadays when comic books aren't sold in big box stores and other forms of media...like video games... are far more likely to entice a younger audience)

That's what older readers and writers like Brevoort, Cebulski, Lowe, Slott, and Wells don't understand. For them, it probably took months to years to piece together a single subplot and they probably had to do so without a lot of backstory and context. But the demographics have shifted and instead of ignoring the fanbase, they should probably pay attention. The fact that the entire market continues on a steady decline suggests that whatever they're currently doing just isn't working and it would probably behoove them to try something else.

As Tinker Spider has pointed out, the manga, anime, YA novels, film franchises etc. that all build on continuity and story progression to foster investment from the audience have become massive sellers in the last two decades. Whereas american superhero comic books that have stagnated continue to hemorrhage.

Nowadays, no one cares to read about the Hardy Boys mystery of the month. It's the serialized fiction of Star Wars, MCU, Harry Potter, Dragon Ball, Sailor Moon, the Hunger Games, Invincible, the Arkham games and all of the ongoing dramas of Netflix, HBO, Hulu, etc. that sell.

What makes you feel that JMS, Spencer and other writers you actually like don’t believe the illusion of change? Those were literally the parts that I hated more about those runs.

In JMS, he put Peter back in his old school even though he had long since graduated by that point. Regressed Flash to his old obnoxious characterization. He also introduced the Spider-God storyline which was a soft retcon of how Peter got his powers.

Spencer especially was just retreading old storylines, and getting rid of anything new that happened. I still hate what he did with Harry.

[CaptainUniverse]

What makes you feel that JMS, Spencer and other writers you actually like don’t believe the illusion of change? Those were literally the parts that I hated more about those runs.

In JMS, he put Peter back in his old school even though he had long since graduated by that point. Regressed Flash to his old obnoxious characterization. He also introduced the Spider-God storyline which was a soft retcon of how Peter got his powers.

Spencer especially was just retreading old storylines, and getting rid of anything new that happened. I still hate what he did with Harry.

How is this a sign of regression/illusion of change? A lot of teachers usually end up working at the High School they graduated from.

[marhawkman]

How is this a sign of regression/illusion of change? A lot of teachers usually end up working at the High School they graduated from.

Hmm As a teacher would make sense... was it that?

[Daibhidh]

In JMS, he put Peter back in his old school even though he had long since graduated by that point. Regressed Flash to his old obnoxious characterization. He also introduced the Spider-God storyline which was a soft retcon of how Peter got his powers.

(I think Flash regressing to his old characterisation was Peter David, who unregressed him after the unmasking.)
Putting Peter back in school as a teacher is something nobody had done before; just because it's the same school does not mean it's the same situation.
A soft retcon is the opposite of retreading old ground. I don't think it was an entirely successful idea, but it was again something nobody had done with Spider-man before.

Spencer especially was just retreading old storylines, and getting rid of anything new that happened. I still hate what he did with Harry.

Strictly speaking, he was getting rid of other people's steps backward. That is, both Kraven and Harry had been killed off in highly revered stories, and then brought back to life (regression) and Spencer was getting rid of the regression.
I don't think he was right to do so, at least not in Harry's case. If someone's been brought back that suggests that they're more useful as a character alive than dead.

[Spider-Tiger]

What makes you feel that JMS, Spencer and other writers you actually like don’t believe the illusion of change? Those were literally the parts that I hated more about those runs.

In JMS, he put Peter back in his old school even though he had long since graduated by that point. Regressed Flash to his old obnoxious characterization. He also introduced the Spider-God storyline which was a soft retcon of how Peter got his powers.

Spencer especially was just retreading old storylines, and getting rid of anything new that happened. I still hate what he did with Harry.

JMS didn't put Peter back in high school as a student. He gave him a new occupation as a teacher. That's not regression, it's character development: he had grown to mentor students that were like him when he was a teenager. A big element of the JMS run was also Aunt May finally being clued in on Peter's identity, which was another huge development for both characters. (And one that at least brought some purpose to Aunt May's revival after ASM 400.) None of that was "illusion of change."

Spencer's run read to me like an attempt to correct some of the character regression of Post-OMD. In the same way that Stern and DeFalco did after Wolfman. It was the first run in a long time that was trying to make sense of retcons and contradictions in continuity to make the overarching narrative more cohesive. But anyway Spencer's run had nothing to do with my initial argument.

[CaptainUniverse]

Hmm As a teacher would make sense... was it that?

Yup. Peter went to work as the new Midtown High science teacher in ASM #30:

[Lee]

He put Peter and Mary Jane back together after they separated. Regression.

[Spider-Tiger]

He put Peter and Mary Jane back together after they separated. Regression.

Honestly, the fact that they got back together so abruptly is a legitimate criticism of Spencer's run.