Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2023

[Hakka84]

(...) now that some time has passed, it's sinking in that they really did just randomly kill him off and had everyone not care. I doubt there's going to be a scene in X-Men or FotHoX where Gambit pulls Cyclops aside and goes, "Hey mon'ami, I blew up Warren." D-list mutants have been treated much better than this in recent years.

To be fair, it's been years since the last time characters were made to react to losses of friends. So I can't fault Foxe (and Gambit) for not even saying a line about Warren's death. (yes, I would've wanted Remy to acknowledge it at least in a ballon, off course).
The time of Ororo&Hank mopping around for months about Betsy's death (and Warren joining too late in the thing, showing up angry in the X-Treme X-Men Posé) is long gone. I'm sure there are titles in which deaths are mourned, but recently... well, feelings aren't much a focus of the stories. Back then, when someone died, you got at least a page remembering them, a collage of their feats or hurdles, or their friends/team-mate shown to go to the funeral. Remember when Piotr sacrificed himself? Kurt's death during Messiah War took many pages, including a funeral despite the timing (in-world) wasn't on their favour.
No more. You have to pack so much action in 20pages that a good page on reflecting on the loss your just got it... nope.

I'm following the X-Line through summaries but, did we get mutants truly mourn the Hellfire Massacre? I mean, we know that all the mutants of Krakoa are still alive (thanks-no-thanks to MR), but the mutants who didn't step through the gates ("the survivors") whose missions we followed through Fall of X (minus Immortal) believe that they are the last ones. Warren, Remy, Rogue... to them all those who are in Immortal are dead. I understand their situation is so dire that you don't even have the time to stop and cry, but... acknowledge that you lost all your friends and family? A moment? Some of these people survive through Mutant Massacre, or remember Genosha... there's should be PSTD, someone falling apart, someone "I can't this anymore". It would help us feel better their tragedy, IMHO.
Remember Days of Future Past? They were in a similar situation, there too the survivors didn't have time to spare to mourn, and they had seen so many deaths that they could be "dried up", but you still perceived that each new loss was new pain to bear.
I didn't feel any pain from anyone during Fall of X.


Edit: hoping you got better.
Can't wait to hear your thoughts about the Original X-Men one shot.

[Hakka84]

Somehow off topic since it's not related to what we've been discussing, but still Warren-related. I need suggestions from native English.

Team X 2000. Putting under spoiler in case someone hasn't read this and doesn't want to be spoiled.
spoilers:

Earth has been conquered by the Shi'ar. Warren is married to the evil daughter of Lilandra and Charles, the current Majestrix, but eventually betrays her (or breaks out of her control - still unsure if he chose to side with the Sh'iar or was forced/brainwashed/suggested to by the Majestrix's telephatic powers) while the Terrans manage to overthrow the Majestrix. Anyway, at the end, the Majestrix is defeated and peace is on the way. Then this The Shi'ar have elected the Angel to stand as their liaison until the proper governing system is found to suit both species. I think it means that Warren has been chosen to represent the Shi'ar in any talkings with Earth - so he stands in for Shi'ar, and not humanity/Terrans. Am I right? Or does this mean he has been chosen by the Shi'ar to speak for their Earth colony in a temporary representative of Earth before a proper elected/chosen one can be instated? I think when you say "John Doe is the US liaison" would mean he speaks for the US, not that he speaks with the US government, but I'm not sure.

end of spoilers
help a non-English speaker?

[Micabe]

Somehow off topic since it's not related to what we've been discussing, but still Warren-related. I need suggestions from native English.

Team X 2000. Putting under spoiler in case someone hasn't read this and doesn't want to be spoiled.
spoilers:

Earth has been conquered by the Shi'ar. Warren is married to the evil daughter of Lilandra and Charles, the current Majestrix, but eventually betrays her (or breaks out of her control - still unsure if he chose to side with the Sh'iar or was forced/brainwashed/suggested to by the Majestrix's telephatic powers) while the Terrans manage to overthrow the Majestrix. Anyway, at the end, the Majestrix is defeated and peace is on the way. Then this I think it means that Warren has been chosen to represent the Shi'ar in any talkings with Earth - so he stands in for Shi'ar, and not humanity/Terrans. Am I right? Or does this mean he has been chosen by the Shi'ar to speak for their Earth colony in a temporary representative of Earth before a proper elected/chosen one can be instated? I think when you say "John Doe is the US liaison" would mean he speaks for the US, not that he speaks with the US government, but I'm not sure.

end of spoilers
help a non-English speaker?

Team-X 2000: Paradox Lost (1999), is too long of an alternate (future) reality story to properly summarize in my own words. Try perusing the link I provided instead

[Hakka84]

Team-X 2000: Paradox Lost (1999), is too long of an alternate (future) reality story to properly summarize in my own words. Try perusing the link I provided instead

Perhaps I explained myself wrong. I do know the comic and what it tells (I read it more than once in the years). I just wished to understand if the term I underlined has the meaning I understood. To my non-English head, I can't tell if the liaison for X state works for X state or is an agent of a Y state to keep talkings with X state. Clearer now?
spoilers:

Namely: Warren is a representative of the Sh'iar or the Terrans/Earth

end of spoilers
I wish to expand on this (write a somehow sequel) but I'm not supersure about what make of W's (temporary) role is supposed to be.

[Thievery]

I cant believe they just left Warren dead at the end of Dark X-men. I wonder if and when they will resolve that

It probably would have been a mistake to resurrect Archangel right away after killing him off in Dark X-Men. One of the big story points of Fall of X is that the mutants no longer have access to resurrection. Using a magic spell to bring Archangel back to life would have undercut that story point. I don't like it, but I think that's part of why he is dead.

I hate to have to be a Debby Downer, but I really don't think that Marvel has any intention of brining Archangel back any time soon. His death was treated like an after thought in Dark X-Men. His death was so pathetic that I doubt Marvel has any interest in bringing the character back any time soon. Fingers crossed that I'm wrong and that I'm overreacting.

Archangel's pathetic Red Shirt death is one of the reasons that I wish that when there are no plans for a character than that character would remain unused. Now if some other writer wants to use Archangel they may be told that he is dead, and that the editor isn't interested in resurrecting him in a story.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Or he'll be resurrected with several others but he won't stand out so it doesn't matter how he died...

[Hakka84]

It probably would have been a mistake to resurrect Archangel right away after killing him off in Dark X-Men. One of the big story points of Fall of X is that the mutants no longer have access to resurrection. Using a magic spell to bring Archangel back to life would have undercut that story point. I don't like it, but I think that's part of why he is dead.

I hate to have to be a Debby Downer, but I really don't think that Marvel has any intention of brining Archangel back any time soon. His death was treated like an after thought in Dark X-Men. His death was so pathetic that I doubt Marvel has any interest in bringing the character back any time soon. Fingers crossed that I'm wrong and that I'm overreacting.

Archangel's pathetic Red Shirt death is one of the reasons that I wish that when there are no plans for a character than that character would remain unused. Now if some other writer wants to use Archangel they may be told that he is dead, and that the editor isn't interested in resurrecting him in a story.

Quoting this whole. I just don't agree that his death was pathetic. On its own it was cool (I wouldn't go as far as epic - it would've been epic in a different media, such as a movie).
A resurrection right in Dark X-Men would've been wrong. The issue here is that there's no promise of his return in 2024, and even the lack of his presence in any variant cover is worrisome. Very worrisome.

[Sutekh]

Archangel's pathetic Red Shirt death is one of the reasons that I wish that when there are no plans for a character than that character would remain unused. Now if some other writer wants to use Archangel they may be told that he is dead, and that the editor isn't interested in resurrecting him in a story.

Unfortunately, it might be best for him to 'remain dead' so long as there isn't a writer who *wants* to use him. Because if he's alive, but nobody has 'dibs' on him, he's just recognizable OG X-Men fodder for being ganked off again, or put through some wringer to puff up the cred of a new threat (as he was during the Morlock Massacre, IMO). Stuff they couldn't get away with doing to Scott or Jean, will always be done to him, since he's got less story-arc going on than the other four OG X-Men.

He's got a big target, because of that 'first' status, so I kinda want him away from the X-franchise, with it's obsession with killing / maiming / turning-into-Horseman/Hand puppets/Malice playthings X-folk who are recognizable, but not particularly popular with any writer.

I feel like Banshee gets the same treatment. He has that 'All-New classic lineup' street cred, but nobody has any real plans for him, so that just makes him the go-to target for 'okay, new big threat, somebody recognizable has gotta die, and not just 'Madrox Dupe #76,' to show how big a deal it is, but it can't be somebody anyone wants to actually use...'

And I've just talked myself into a mini where Banshee and Angel team up and kick some major butt while grousing about how they seem to be the punching bags that their X-friends don't take seriously (or even care about, when they die, strain their powers while saving everyone else's asses or go missing...).

[Hakka84]

I feel like Banshee gets the same treatment.

To be fair, for as much as I love Warren, I think Sean got it way worse than him. Must really suck (and be frustrating), to be at the same time a fan of Warren and Sean.

[Thievery]

Or he'll be resurrected with several others but he won't stand out so it doesn't matter how he died...

I would be okay with that. At least Archangel would be alive.

Quoting this whole. I just don't agree that his death was pathetic. On its own it was cool (I wouldn't go as far as epic - it would've been epic in a different media, such as a movie).
A resurrection right in Dark X-Men would've been wrong. The issue here is that there's no promise of his return in 2024, and even the lack of his presence in any variant cover is worrisome. Very worrisome.

I probably should have been more clear. I find Archangel's death to be pathetic for a couple of reasons.

First, because the comic never explains when it actually happens. He could have been killed by Albert in Dark X-Men issue #1. Or he could have been killed by Gambit in issue#2. The recap/preview page says issue #1 but the comic never really bothers to explain the situation. I find that to be pathetic.

Second because the X-Men don't even bother to mention it after the series ends. Gambit and the others may as well have said " Archangel just got killed, but who really cares about him. Not us."

Now Gambit blowing up Archangel was a nice visual scene. It just doesn't matter much because of how the comic ends.

Unfortunately, it might be best for him to 'remain dead' so long as there isn't a writer who *wants* to use him. Because if he's alive, but nobody has 'dibs' on him, he's just recognizable OG X-Men fodder for being ganked off again, or put through some wringer to puff up the cred of a new threat (as he was during the Morlock Massacre, IMO). Stuff they couldn't get away with doing to Scott or Jean, will always be done to him, since he's got less story-arc going on than the other four OG X-Men.

He's got a big target, because of that 'first' status, so I kinda want him away from the X-franchise, with it's obsession with killing / maiming / turning-into-Horseman/Hand puppets/Malice playthings X-folk who are recognizable, but not particularly popular with any writer.

I feel like Banshee gets the same treatment. He has that 'All-New classic lineup' street cred, but nobody has any real plans for him, so that just makes him the go-to target for 'okay, new big threat, somebody recognizable has gotta die, and not just 'Madrox Dupe #76,' to show how big a deal it is, but it can't be somebody anyone wants to actually use...'

And I've just talked myself into a mini where Banshee and Angel team up and kick some major butt while grousing about how they seem to be the punching bags that their X-friends don't take seriously (or even care about, when they die, strain their powers while saving everyone else's asses or go missing...).

I really think that it is in the best interests of the Archangel character to be alive and available for guest spots and cameo appearances instead of being dead and unavailable to make appearances. Who knows when an editor will bother to allow someone to resurrect him. The current editorial regime certainly didn't give a $#!% about him.

I do agree with getting Archangel away from the X-Men line. He usually doesn't get to do much there. Well he does get to do things in comics like X-Force or X-Factor. It's when he is in a main X-Men tittle that he gets treated poorly, with a few exceptions like Soule or Bunn's X-Men.
But overall, I think that the character would be better off in the main Marvel universe away from the X-Men

To be fair, for as much as I love Warren, I think Sean got it way worse than him. Must really suck (and be frustrating), to be at the same time a fan of Warren and Sean.

Maybe it's just because I liked the Legion of X comic, but I thought that Sean had a fairly good run in the Krakoa era. Especially compared to Warren.

[Hakka84]

I already expressed my thought that I think Warren would thrive in the Avengers (or, at least, in an Avenger-theme book). I will spare you a repeat.

First, because the comic never explains when it actually happens. He could have been killed by Albert in Dark X-Men issue #1. Or he could have been killed by Gambit in issue#2. The recap/preview page says issue #1 but the comic never really bothers to explain the situation. I find that to be pathetic.

I... hm... tend to forget the whole "was he already dead when he got in the GQ's hands?" little details. My bad.
I just wish Foxe at least bothered to tell us if he wished he could've done more with him (if he were given a longer mini or an ongoing) or if he really just picked a random X-Men to kill off and his choice ended up on Warren, or he picked Warren only because he had the "Gambit blows up someone" idea and nothing would look cooler than killing off someone by making their wings blow up (somehow it sounds less "gory" than blowing up someone's flesh body). *sigh*

Maybe it's just because I liked the Legion of X comic, but I thought that Sean had a fairly good run in the Krakoa era. Especially compared to Warren.

I was thinking at the recent decades, with him evil, than good, than death, then Horseman, whatever else. Isn't currently dead or merged with an evil spirit or what? *rushing to bed, so I don't have time to check myself. :P*

[Thievery]

I was thinking at the recent decades, with him evil, than good, than death, then Horseman, whatever else. Isn't currently dead or merged with an evil spirit or what? *rushing to bed, so I don't have time to check myself. :P*

Well, Shawn got to meat Moira, and then get skinned by her in Inferno, if I remember the story correctly. He then got to become the Spirit of Variance (fairly lame idea), and got himself a fairly prominent role in Legion of X. After he was killed all of the bad things that happened to him were erased from his memory backups if I am remembering things correctly. So he got some good usage during Krakoa, and a happy ending, assuming that he survives Fall of X.
I think that beats what Archangel has received from Krakoa era X-Men comics.

[Hakka84]

I didn't remember at the time of my reply, but your message made me remember about the whole skinning (I had needs for Moira lately and read what she did after leaving Krakoa). Hm. Not sure I would pitch poor Sean against Warren. Two different brands of "unrespectful". IMHO. Agree to disagree.
(not that I really care for Sean, I'm mostly indifferent to him)

Greetings from 2024 (already 2.44 AM here in Italy). We'll hear each other in the new thread, I guess.