Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2023

[Thievery]

[crazyIdeaTime]
If I remember right, the author of the O5 story said, not exact quote "who's to say the character who stays in the present is teen/O5?".
The premise, if I remember right, is that AU!Phoenix picks the teen O5 to fix some future that has gone wrong/stop someone. Wouldn't it be cool if this time they are meant to stop some adult!O5 and it's that Warren that stays behind?
[/crazyIdeaTime]

This idea clearly plays on the hope that someone actually remembers Warren is currently dead and there's no viable mean to resurrect him.
Although my fear is that everyone, Foxe included, forgot he's actually dead.

I would really prefer that it would not be the teen Angel who stays behind. I prefer adult Angel. And I don't know what value teen Angel would actually be if he showed up again.

I realize that you are just joking about Foxe forgetting that he has killed Warren. It's still strange to think about the character being killed in the story that way though.

Sorry for the double post.
Since someone posted a page from Marvel Fanfare #40 on Tumblr.

Did you like these two "odd" stories about our bird?

I admit that I have forgotten much about the story from Marvel Fanfare. If it is the one that I am thinking of I didn't care for it that much.

The Phantom Wings story is one of my all time favorite Archangel stories though.

[Thirteen]

Speaking of odd Warren stories...how rates the miniseries ANGEL:REVELATIONS by Roberto Aguirre Sacasa and Adam Pollina?
From what I've seen of it, the story is an odd bird origin for our Angel.

[Jesse James]

I hope Warren gets a better role soon. I love the Krakoa era as ot did many characters good. Unfortunately that does not include Archangel. He deserves better.

[Hakka84]

I admit that I have forgotten much about the story from Marvel Fanfare. If it is the one that I am thinking of I didn't care for it that much.

I knew I would read this answer for you. I was actually about to say, in my original post, that the post wasn't for you. ;P

Speaking of odd Warren stories...how rates the miniseries ANGEL:REVELATIONS by Roberto Aguirre Sacasa and Adam Pollina?
From what I've seen of it, the story is an odd bird origin for our Angel.

When it came out I hated it - with the fury of ten burning suns. I didn't like the art and I couldn't get over it.
But I recently re-read it and LOVED it so, so much, and even come to appreciate the art as well. It fits the story, gives it an uniqueness that adds points to the story. It's odd indeed, and includes mature themes that might squick someone, but I would recommend it for anyone who likes Warren - especially the Warren who isn't Archangel.
I'm not sure about the canon-status of this story. It falls in the same limbo of First Class I think: is close to 616 canon, and doesn't conflict with canon, but hasn't been officially confirmed as 616-canon either (I seem to recall the Max and Marvel Knights lines were muddy on the canon status?).

Small spoilers from Revelation from here.


Still, it introduces three characters that will belong to pre-X-Men Warren. We'll never see them again, sure, but they are eventually portrayed as good characters and it's sad that we don't get to see them again with Warren.

Only downside that I still can't accept is the negative portrayal of Warren's parent - which, as I re-read Uncanny X-Force's first meeting of Betsy/Warren and First Class - seems to have percolated in recent canon.
Prepare for an analysis below.

Warren's parent show up in the Silver Age X-Men, when they come to the school and are kidnapped by Magneto. And, from what we gather, they are loving and dotting parents. Of all the O5 parents we get to see in the 60s, they are the most positive, second only to the Grey's (who know about Jean's powers if I remember right, and accept her).
Then they are killed and they aren't mentioned again.
Warren's family is then forgotten, it's as if Warren never had a family in the first place. We only see a flashback of little Warren with his father, recounted by Shinobi Shaw in an 90s Uncanny X-Men, and another cameo of Warren with his father outside the Hellfire Club in a Wolverine mini (Logan: Shadow Society). Nothing substantial though.
Fast forward to Hidden Years. Warren's mother is shown to be a lovely and kind woman and Warren is clearly very attached to her.

Then something odd happens.
The next time we get a mention of the Worthington's (Uncanny X-Force), Warren (Betsy's reply to him, actually) hints at a conflicting relationship between Warren and his father and a negative portrayal of Warren Jr.. Which yes, can make sense in a family that is established as being one the richest of USA. But so different that what little we've known about the Worthington's so far.

And then yes, Revelations. In which we see that Warren Jr. barely bothers to acknowledge he has a son - for some reason he's annoyed by him, or disappointed, and angered any time his wife is willing to give some attentions to Warren III. I can't understand why, if Warren Jr. is just a cold father who believes his teen son must be independent and "stop clinging to his mother's skirt", or of he has reasons we aren't told that make Warren III a disappointment.
If I remember right, Warren at some point explained that, before becoming the Avenging Angel, he moved from boarding school to boarding school and/or got himself expelled because he didn't want his wings to be discovered. So Warren Jr. could be annoyed by a son who doesn't "act" accordingly to his status?
(we also know, from Uncanny X-Men , that little Warren was introduced to the Hellfire and Sebastian Shaw was positively struck by him - so this might be a reason for Jr. to be proud of his son).
But in the small world that is told in Revelations, we see that Warren is doing good at school, both as student and sportsman, so Jr. shouldn't have any reason to complain.
Jr. comes to visit/meet Warren but it's clear he is doing it because he must - it's not a choice but a duty. When Warren calls home because he's scared, Jr. orders Kathryn to put down the phone because they have an appointment. So, Revelation establishes that Jr. doesn't care much for his only son.
What's further annoying, is that even Kathryn is painted in a negative light. Warren calls her on the phone and is scared, yet she doesn't seem to care and is quick to dismiss him. Perhaps she's just a scared woman submitted to his imposing husband - and that's what the phone scene might imply (Warren Jr. is possibly abusive to her and she obeys him). But this conflicts with the next scene we see of her. Kathryn, with Warren Jr. is at the graduation/what-is-that ceremony: Kathryn is more interested in looking at her own reflection in the portable mirror than pay attention to her son.

So, the story establishes that Warren grew up in a cold family. Which I don't like. In a X-World in which most of the mutants have conflicting relationship with their parents (if their parents exists in the first place), I liked that Warren - despite belonging to "old rich money" - had a supporting and warm family and they died before his mutation could sore or strain the relationship. With the Worthington's portrayed in a positive light, it makes for a bigger tragedy that Burt comes and kills them both, leaving Warren orphan and devoid of two people he loved and loved him back. If you establish that Warren had estranged parents, the pain of their death is(or should be) less.. painful? IMHO.

I think Sacasa here might've been influenced by Ultimate X-Men, in which Warren Jr. can't wait to get rid of his winged son. Still, Ultimate!Jr. had the hatred for mutants (or the embarrassment for having sired a son with a disgusting mutation) to explain his cold attitude. Canon!Jr. will never know about Warren's mutation.

Sorry, I rambled. I hope what I wrote make sense nonetheless.

Edit: who's the idiot? Who's the idiot? Me. Wasted an hour writing this wall of text, and only after hitting send, I do remember I already wrote my impressions of Revelations on Tumblr. Yeah, have a read if you're interested.

[Thievery]

Speaking of odd Warren stories...how rates the miniseries ANGEL:REVELATIONS by Roberto Aguirre Sacasa and Adam Pollina?
From what I've seen of it, the story is an odd bird origin for our Angel.

Personally, I feel that the art was great. It was really nice to look at. Polina is almost always great. He was a great choice of artist for a miniseries about a teenage Angel. Or even an Angel of any age, really. I would almost recommend this comic for the art alone. It really is great to look at.

Unfortunately, the actual story is a bit harder to recommend.
I wouldn't say that the story is bad. It's competent enough.
The problem that I have with it is part of what Hakka84 pointed out. The story just struggles to fit into Warren's history in a credible way. Cam Hodge is supposed to come from Angel's time at boarding school, and he doesn't even appear. Same with Candy Southern. She plays no role either. Warren always had a good relationship with his parents. He respected them and they loved him. I have to say that I don't remember Warren having this many problems with his parents in this comic, though. I may have to reread it.
If you are willing to except the comic as being an AU story it could be worth a read. The religious fanatic villain is actually good, and so is the little girl from what I remember from the last time that I read this story.

I knew I would read this answer for you. I was actually about to say, in my original post, that the post wasn't for you. ;P

Lol. Thank you for your vote of confidence.

[Hakka84]

I... don't know what to say.
I just... now even the Original X-Men story (which, if you remember, I looked forward to) has soured on me.

Might be just a wrong day to me, but I'm on the verge of tears. Not of sadness but of frustration.

I don't know. I had been writing my historical!AU fic, then come here to spoil myself on DXM #5, and lost any will to return to the fic: the word document is open, I look at it and don't feel anything coming. I'm very, very down now.

[Til]

Well. As predicted, my slight hope was a fool's hope. Not only was Warren not resurrected, they doubled down on how dead he is. I'm not going to repeat all my complaints again, so I'll just say I'm disappointed but not surprised by Warren's treatment. I'm actually low-key dreading the O5 one-shot next week. I have no interest in a Teen Warren replacing current Warren.

On another topic, I think I'll read through the Angel minis mentioned earlier. I've never actually read them before, so at least in that sense I have some new Warren stories to look forward to.

[Hakka84]

On another topic, I think I'll read through the Angel minis mentioned earlier. I've never actually read them before, so at least in that sense I have some new Warren stories to look forward to.

Shocked gasp.

Let us know your impression. Be as verbose as you like! Please. Entertain us. ç_ç
I'm especially curious about hearing someone reading Phantom Wings for their first time. It's a very odd comic, for more than one reason.

[Hakka84]

I'm actually low-key dreading the O5 one-shot next week. I have no interest in a Teen Warren replacing current Warren.

Me too. I was looking forward to it. Now I have your same fear.
Even the "crazy idea" I threw around few posts above (which wasn't a wish of mine, but an idea of what could happen - mind me) would be unwelcome at this point. Any AU!Warren, even an adult one, would not be the same one I like - he wouldn't be the guy who ascended, the guy who descended into darkness in X-Force, the guy who gave up some of his life to save Betsy's, the one who broke up with Betsy because he wanted to marry her/have a family with her while she clearly didn't, and so on.
I know that most of this hasn't been referenced again, and canon pretend it never happened, but it happened. 616!Warren is the sum of all of this. And I refuse to accept and latch to another Warren.

Besides. I can't see any viability for a Warren that is "less" than 616!Warren. Unless they bring a Warren in ascended status, they can't have a Warren as "powerful" as 616 was up to his death. So it would make no sense to play with an AU!Warren when you could put 616!Warren to good use.
Meh.

I foresee weeks of lamentations in this topic. Let's all hug together.

[Til]

Shocked gasp.

Let us know your impression. Be as verbose as you like! Please. Entertain us. ç_ç
I'm especially curious about hearing someone reading Phantom Wings for their first time. It's a very odd comic, for more than one reason.

Sure! I'd be happy to share my thoughts afterward. I'm going to wait until after next week, though. I don't want my apprehension of Original X-Men hanging over me while reading them.

[Thievery]

Me too. I was looking forward to it. Now I have your same fear.
Even the "crazy idea" I threw around few posts above (which wasn't a wish of mine, but an idea of what could happen - mind me) would be unwelcome at this point. Any AU!Warren, even an adult one, would not be the same one I like - he wouldn't be the guy who ascended, the guy who descended into darkness in X-Force, the guy who gave up some of his life to save Betsy's, the one who broke up with Betsy because he wanted to marry her/have a family with her while she clearly didn't, and so on.
I know that most of this hasn't been referenced again, and canon pretend it never happened, but it happened. 616!Warren is the sum of all of this. And I refuse to accept and latch to another Warren.

Besides. I can't see any viability for a Warren that is "less" than 616!Warren. Unless they bring a Warren in ascended status, they can't have a Warren as "powerful" as 616 was up to his death. So it would make no sense to play with an AU!Warren when you could put 616!Warren to good use.
Meh.

I foresee weeks of lamentations in this topic. Let's all hug together.

I agree with you about Teen Angel. I've speculated that he might be the character that was left behind. But man, do I not want that idea to happen. There is no way that I want a teen age version of Archangel with no memories of his time as an adult walking around. To have all of his stories erased would be terrible. It would be a phony version of Angel as far as I am concerned.

Teen Angel was also easily the worst member of the Teen O5. He contributed nothing to the O5's time in the future. None of his major stories as an adult were even touched on, that's how little Marvel thought of him.

After the panel from Dark X-Men 5 that said that Warren's soul was irredeemable I'm honestly a little bit afraid that Marvel may just decide to make him a villain. That's how bad that they seem to hate the character.

[Hakka84]

After the panel from Dark X-Men 5 that said that Warren's soul was irredeemable I'm honestly a little bit afraid that Marvel may just decide to make him a villain. That's how bad that they seem to hate the character.

At this point I wouldn't even be against it: after all, the best arch he got in decades was him going villain, and there seem to not exist a place for him in the "good" teams. But, seeing how they've written Genesis and Beast... just no.
I mean, if they were able to really write a good morally grey character, a Warren that has a good face and then he's an Apocalypse behind the shadows... but they would never be able to, so I'll pass.

I think that perhaps we're reading too much in the whole "souls beyond salvation". That page is an ending montage, as you would get in a tv show or movie. They had to show us the main characters but it doesn't mean that we have to apply each definition to each specific character. I don't have a specific example of a montage similar to this, but usually the words are some "wisdom line" to give finality to the main character journey, while the pictures gives us an hint of how the other subplots ended. Not always the two things (the audio and the video) are 100% connected.
Hope you get what I mean.
Said this. Given how we know X-Office thinks of the Warren character... I'm not relaxed at all. I try to cling to logic (both on the montage aforementioned, and the absurdity of let Archangel waste in death to pull a "simple" Angel from the past), but logic doesn't apply here. So I'm scared.

Man, this is so depressing.

[mattsarchamp]

If they intend to make him a villain, make it alongside the return of the Apocalypse Twins, Eimin and Uriel, whom he never met. I think it will boost his character development and inject more interesting stories in his repertoire. Hope some writer would have thought of this and make Warren useful again.

[Hakka84]

If they intend to make him a villain, make it alongside the return of the Apocalypse Twins, Eimin and Uriel, whom he never met. I think it will boost his character development and inject more interesting stories in his repertoire. Hope some writer would have thought of this and make Warren useful again.

I fear nobody even remembers the Twins - and Krakoa-era was the right time to resurrect them (pun intended). Another missed chance.
I would DIE if they finally gave Warren the children-from-future drama we're used to with Scott and Jean. The potential is limitless, especially if you throw in "grandpa" Poccy.

Now Warren is as disconnected from Betsy as he could ever be, but... think the potential if the pair was still on.
There the whole "I sired two children while I was still in a relationship with you", which basically is cheating.
And then the addional "they are half-Asian, in a time when you too were Asian" that would be another whole source of drama, because an outside person unaware of the drama could believe the Twins future children of Betsy and Warren, and therefore related to Kwannon as well (so she would be thrown in the mix) while actually they aren't future children (they're technically, "past" children like Cable) and are living proof of Archangel cheating on Psylocke in the very hours he was still advocating for "stay with be, Elizabeth, and be my wife as Death".
Truly hilarious. The drama potential indeed!

Better I log off now. I think my fanfiction-like crazyness is showing.

[billee0918]

Amazing new Warren figure coming soon
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