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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member davetvs's Avatar
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    Me too, it could be really good if done well. Tini Howard's Monet was just so OOC it was hard to read. I didn't finish it.

  2. #17
    Braddock Isle JB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Grayson View Post
    I would like to see the idea revisited. I still think there's a lot of promise in the dynamic between Warren and Monet.
    I agree as well. The concept is solid, just needs to be in someone else's hands and new life breathed into it.
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  3. #18
    Spectacular Member Hekabolos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    I like seeing Archangel in new stories that don't involve him just rehashing his previous ones. But I think that the best thing to do to help the character would probably be to take him back to basics as metal winged Archangel and putting him in a comic like X-Force or a new Hellions team.
    That's just my opinion.
    I might be in the minority in vastly preferring Warren in his original body as a flying acrobat. The x-men don't really make use of the costumed acrobat archetype as much as the rest of the marvel universe does (Nightcrawler and Longshot are the only two that come immediately to mind), which makes him seem underpowered compared to the rest of the team, but I like that he needed to fight smarter (plus, I enjoyed his more fun-loving persona as the Angel). I prefer agile, acrobatic heroes in general though, so I'm a bit biased here.

  4. #19
    Fantastic Member Til's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    Me too, it could be really good if done well. Tini Howard's Monet was just so OOC it was hard to read. I didn't finish it.
    I couldn't finish, either. It got to the point where I was so disgusted with Monet's writing that I found myself rooting for Fenris. That was my cue to step away from the book. I pray that an X-writer not named Tini Howard will rescue Warren from the X-Corp status quo.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Thievery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    RIP X-Corp. The execution was terrible but the cast and concept were stellar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Grayson View Post
    I would like to see the idea revisited. I still think there's a lot of promise in the dynamic between Warren and Monet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Til View Post
    I couldn't finish, either. It got to the point where I was so disgusted with Monet's writing that I found myself rooting for Fenris. That was my cue to step away from the book. I pray that an X-writer not named Tini Howard will rescue Warren from the X-Corp status quo.
    I thought that the cast was a big problem for the comic. I don't see how you can present a business company that has Master Mind or Selene as board members as a kind benevolent business corporation. there is no way that the public would buy into that idea.

    Warren and Monet had no positive chemistry at all. Monet was written as an unrelenting monster that no sane person would want to work with or for. Warren came across as a complete pushover who let Monet constantly bully him. He looked like no kind of leader at all.

    I thought that the comic missed Magik as part of it's cast. She was unofficially part of the team when X-Corp made it's debut in the Empyre miniseries. She kind of acted as something of a go between between Warren and Monet. She gave them both some one they felt that they could trust and respect. Sort of a friend. It wouldn't have to be Magik who filled that roster hole in the X-Corp comic. Just about any character that Archangel and Monet both liked would be okay in that role.

    Madrox could have been that character but he was way out of character. And, it turned out that he only wanted to be with his wife anyway.

    The only cast members that fit the comic were Archangel, Monet, Trinary, and Wind Dancer.

    Just a bad comic with poor execution. It didn't seem like there was a lot of thought put into it. That's just how it read to me.
    Just my opinions.

    Edit: I think the point of Monet's story going forward in the comic was to show that just because you are a genius who can learn how to run a corporation it doesn't mean that you should if you still don't have the skills. Things like having a plan for how to run the company or the people skills to get along with your co-workers and team mates.
    Just a guess on my part.
    Last edited by Thievery; 02-04-2023 at 06:23 AM.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Thievery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hekabolos View Post
    I might be in the minority in vastly preferring Warren in his original body as a flying acrobat. The x-men don't really make use of the costumed acrobat archetype as much as the rest of the marvel universe does (Nightcrawler and Longshot are the only two that come immediately to mind), which makes him seem underpowered compared to the rest of the team, but I like that he needed to fight smarter (plus, I enjoyed his more fun-loving persona as the Angel). I prefer agile, acrobatic heroes in general though, so I'm a bit biased here.
    I really prefer metal winged Archangel. I think that it gives him an origin story that is a bit different from other winged characters and most of the other X-Men. Most writers seem like they have better ideas for how to use metal winged Archangel also. The feather winged version not so much.

    Other acrobats among the X-Men that I can think of are Laura Kinney, Gambit, Domino, and even Beast once upon a time. There are several others.

    But if you prefer feather winged Angel that's fine. We are all entitled to our opinions.

  7. #22
    Spectacular Member Hekabolos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    I really prefer metal winged Archangel. I think that it gives him an origin story that is a bit different from other winged characters and most of the other X-Men. Most writers seem like they have better ideas for how to use metal winged Archangel also. The feather winged version not so much.

    Other acrobats among the X-Men that I can think of are Laura Kinney, Gambit, Domino, and even Beast once upon a time. There are several others.

    But if you prefer feather winged Angel that's fine. We are all entitled to our opinions.
    Ha, we are! And you're right: writers seem to have an easier time coming up with storylines for Archangel than Angel so if it leads to Warren being used more then sure, make him Archangel. I do think those stories are getting a little repetitive though. There are only so many times I can watch Warren angst over Apocalypse, especially given what the Krakoan era has done with the Apocalypse mythos. I'm not sure where the relationship between them goes now.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hekabolos View Post
    I might be in the minority in vastly preferring Warren in his original body as a flying acrobat. The x-men don't really make use of the costumed acrobat archetype as much as the rest of the marvel universe does (Nightcrawler and Longshot are the only two that come immediately to mind), which makes him seem underpowered compared to the rest of the team, but I like that he needed to fight smarter (plus, I enjoyed his more fun-loving persona as the Angel). I prefer agile, acrobatic heroes in general though, so I'm a bit biased here.
    I like both, which is annoying, because it's like I'm arguing with myself half the time.

    But I really loved how he was used in a brief appearance in Thunderbolts, where the T-Bolts had kinda swiped the old Champion-jet / hovercar thingie for their own use, and Warren showed up to express his displeasure, and managed to fly around with such agility that the entire team of people who generally had powers way better than his, had trouble laying a hand on him! It was a cool way to highlight how his training, experience and agility can make a difference, even when he's 'outclassed' in terms of powers.

    And being rich, he could easily go the Nighthawk route of combining inherent powers with gadgets (like Nighthawk's blasters or battle-talons, or Peregrine's collapsible staff), or the Moon Knight route of also including hired allies! Stark's got his Pepper and Happy, Marc's got Frenchie, there's no reason why Warren couldn't have a person or two working support, and while he doesn't really need someone to drive (or helicopter) him around, he could certainly have a bodyguard. Someone like Yukio would make an amazing 'bodyguard,' since she's easy to mistake for a pretty escort, before she starts dropping fools.

    There's also been some flirtation with giving him other bird-like traits, like keen long-distance vision. If someone wanted to lean into that and take it in another direction, he could perhaps develop hummingbird-like reflexes, allowing him to almost effortlessly dodge or block attacks in hand to hand combat with someone who isn't similarly superhumanly fast, while delivering fast blows that aren't any more super-strong than a normal guy of his build, but are almost impossible to evade in return, because he delivers them almost faster than the eye can see. Not that I think he necessarily needs *more* power, or that more power is better (since it often seems the opposite, and stories become all about feats, and less about the character), but there are certainly options available.

    But... I also love those bladed metal wings with the paralyzing blades. That's just a unique visual, even above the already cool visual of the white-feathered wings. Right now, with Warren kind of (inexplicably?) transforming back and forth, I feel like I've got the best of both worlds!

  9. #24
    Fantastic Member Til's Avatar
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    I'm partial to his Archangel form. Granted, a good portion of that is because I'm a 90's kid and that's the Warren I grew up with. I do find the metal wings really cool though. I think the current situation where he has access to both forms is ideal. He can be Angel for most of the time, then switch to Archangel for battles.

    On the topic of his wings: what did people think of Teen Warren's energy wings? I...wasn't wild about them.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member Thievery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hekabolos View Post
    Ha, we are! And you're right: writers seem to have an easier time coming up with storylines for Archangel than Angel so if it leads to Warren being used more then sure, make him Archangel. I do think those stories are getting a little repetitive though. There are only so many times I can watch Warren angst over Apocalypse, especially given what the Krakoan era has done with the Apocalypse mythos. I'm not sure where the relationship between them goes now.
    Warren's stories wouldn't all have to be about him angsting over Apocalypse just because he had the metal wings. You could still use him in other stories. I didn't like the X-Corp comic but there is an example of him not worrying about Apocalypse. Angel has actually not been shown spending much time thinking about Apocalypse during the Krakoan era of the comics. And there are other enemies that he has. He and Hodge are enemies and he doesn't like shinobi Shaw very well either.

    I agree about getting him out of repetitive stories though. The Warren/Betsy romance is my favorite X-Men romance story ever. But in the end it just turned into Warren losing control over his Archangel form with Betsy saving him. It seemed like the very next year the same story would repeat itself again, Warren losing control over his Archangel form with Betsy saving Warren again. It was the same story being told over and over again in an what felt like a never ending circle. So I was glad to see the Warren/Betsy romance end. I know that a lot of readers disagree with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Til View Post
    I'm partial to his Archangel form. Granted, a good portion of that is because I'm a 90's kid and that's the Warren I grew up with. I do find the metal wings really cool though. I think the current situation where he has access to both forms is ideal. He can be Angel for most of the time, then switch to Archangel for battles.

    On the topic of his wings: what did people think of Teen Warren's energy wings? I...wasn't wild about them.
    I prefer for Warren to just remain permanently in his metal winged Archangel form with mental control over it. I liked the idea of Warren having both forms at first but then it just led to Warren being involved in the same stories over and over again like talked about earlier in this post.

    The energy wings could have been alright, maybe. I think that the problem with them was that they led Warren into having the same type of stories that he had as metal winged Archangel. He would lose control over the wings and mind, do dangerous things and need someone to save him. Kind of repetitive like with the metal winged Archangel form. Just a different form of wings.

    I thought that the way Warren chose the wings was kind of stupid as well as the decision to keep them.

    I also just think that the metal wings are just cooler.
    Last edited by Thievery; 02-05-2023 at 06:09 AM.

  11. #26
    Incredible Member Selene's Avatar
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    ^Agreed. It's also pointless for him to stay in his human form under any circumstance, as he cannot conceal his feathered wings.

    One alternative I wouldn't mind seeing again is the shining version with talons from The Twelve storyline, which was soon forgotten afterwards, because Claremont couldn't give a flying fig about Warren. It felt as if Warren was finally reaching the apex of his mutant powers, and his skin retained its blue colouration.

  12. #27
    Spectacular Member Hekabolos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I like both, which is annoying, because it's like I'm arguing with myself half the time.

    But I really loved how he was used in a brief appearance in Thunderbolts, where the T-Bolts had kinda swiped the old Champion-jet / hovercar thingie for their own use, and Warren showed up to express his displeasure, and managed to fly around with such agility that the entire team of people who generally had powers way better than his, had trouble laying a hand on him! It was a cool way to highlight how his training, experience and agility can make a difference, even when he's 'outclassed' in terms of powers.

    And being rich, he could easily go the Nighthawk route of combining inherent powers with gadgets (like Nighthawk's blasters or battle-talons, or Peregrine's collapsible staff), or the Moon Knight route of also including hired allies! Stark's got his Pepper and Happy, Marc's got Frenchie, there's no reason why Warren couldn't have a person or two working support, and while he doesn't really need someone to drive (or helicopter) him around, he could certainly have a bodyguard. Someone like Yukio would make an amazing 'bodyguard,' since she's easy to mistake for a pretty escort, before she starts dropping fools.
    Oh wow, I forgot about that Thunderbolts story! It was a good one; I like when Warren breaks away from the X corner of the universe. Nighthawk is actually exactly what I had in mind as an example of what feather-winged Angel could be: a fast, agile fighter who uses tech and skill (and money) to get the job done. Having a staff wouldn't be totally out of the blue for him; Candy Southern was both his girlfriend and also an assistant of sorts helping him run his business and the Defenders for a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    There's also been some flirtation with giving him other bird-like traits, like keen long-distance vision. If someone wanted to lean into that and take it in another direction, he could perhaps develop hummingbird-like reflexes, allowing him to almost effortlessly dodge or block attacks in hand to hand combat with someone who isn't similarly superhumanly fast, while delivering fast blows that aren't any more super-strong than a normal guy of his build, but are almost impossible to evade in return, because he delivers them almost faster than the eye can see. Not that I think he necessarily needs *more* power, or that more power is better (since it often seems the opposite, and stories become all about feats, and less about the character), but there are certainly options available.
    Yeah, they've tried out a bunch of different secondary traits for him: keen vision, his healing blood, and I think maybe he has hollow bones like a bird? None have really stuck because writers can't seem to agree on whether his wings are meant to be bird wings or, well...angel wings, so they switch around between birdlike and angelic abilities. I like the idea of quicker than normal reflexes though, like how Captain America is often shown reacting faster than average without having super speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    Warren's stories wouldn't all have to be about him angsting over Apocalypse just because he had the metal wings. You could still use him in other stories. I didn't like the X-Corp comic but there is an example of him not worrying about Apocalypse. Angel has actually not been shown spending much time thinking about Apocalypse during the Krakoan era of the comics. And there are other enemies that he has. He and Hodge are enemies and he doesn't like shinobi Shaw very well either.
    I would love to see Hodge and the Right make a comeback as main antagonists for Warren. Likewise with Shinobi. I know the Hellfire Club has been subsumed into Krakoa, but if the Shaws ever broke away from Krakoa or Shinobi were to set up a counter branch of the club they would make perfect antagonists for Warren and X-Corp, if they ever decide to take another shot at that series. Both men have not only personal history with Warren, but the wealth/power to confront him on his own turf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    I agree about getting him out of repetitive stories though. The Warren/Betsy romance is my favorite X-Men romance story ever. But in the end it just turned into Warren losing control over his Archangel form with Betsy saving him. It seemed like the very next year the same story would repeat itself again, Warren losing control over his Archangel form with Betsy saving Warren again. It was the same story being told over and over again in an what felt like a never ending circle. So I was glad to see the Warren/Betsy romance end. I know that a lot of readers disagree with me.
    I'm a huge Warren/Betsy fan, but agree that their relationship had grown pretty stale. I wouldn't mind seeing the two of them interact now that they are both back in their original bodies, even if they don't get back together, as I don't think they ever knew each other when they were both in their original forms? Betsy joined during the Mutant Massacre, right as Warren lost his wings, and by the time they actually met (Inferno?) he had become Archangel.

  13. #28
    Incredible Member Selene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hekabolos View Post
    I'm a huge Warren/Betsy fan, but agree that their relationship had grown pretty stale. I wouldn't mind seeing the two of them interact now that they are both back in their original bodies, even if they don't get back together, as I don't think they ever knew each other when they were both in their original forms? Betsy joined during the Mutant Massacre, right as Warren lost his wings, and by the time they actually met (Inferno?) he had become Archangel.
    Going by the mini retcon in the Dark Angel Saga, where AoA Jean visits Betsy's memories, the first time she met Warren was some time between his joining the Champions and the Dark Phoenix Saga, that is, before Betsy had joined S.T.R.I.K.E. or had hooked up with Tom Lennox.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Thievery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene View Post

    One alternative I wouldn't mind seeing again is the shining version with talons from The Twelve storyline, which was soon forgotten afterwards, because Claremont couldn't give a flying fig about Warren. It felt as if Warren was finally reaching the apex of his mutant powers, and his skin retained its blue colouration.
    If I remember correctly Angel burned those powers out by healing the Aberaham Kieros version of the War Horseman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hekabolos View Post



    I'm a huge Warren/Betsy fan, but agree that their relationship had grown pretty stale. I wouldn't mind seeing the two of them interact now that they are both back in their original bodies, even if they don't get back together, as I don't think they ever knew each other when they were both in their original forms? Betsy joined during the Mutant Massacre, right as Warren lost his wings, and by the time they actually met (Inferno?) he had become Archangel.
    The Uncanny X-Men series that led to the Age of X-Man crossover showed Betsy and Angel in their original bodies talking on panel. They didn't talk about the body thing on panel. I was left with the impression that they just weren't all that concerned about it. They may have just talked about it off panel. They did show some concern for each other in that run of Uncanny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selene View Post
    Going by the mini retcon in the Dark Angel Saga, where AoA Jean visits Betsy's memories, the first time she met Warren was some time between his joining the Champions and the Dark Phoenix Saga, that is, before Betsy had joined S.T.R.I.K.E. or had hooked up with Tom Lennox.
    I admit to forgetting about this.
    Last edited by Thievery; 02-06-2023 at 04:47 AM.

  15. #30
    Fantastic Member Agent Grayson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hekabolos View Post
    Ha, we are! And you're right: writers seem to have an easier time coming up with storylines for Archangel than Angel so if it leads to Warren being used more then sure, make him Archangel. I do think those stories are getting a little repetitive though. There are only so many times I can watch Warren angst over Apocalypse, especially given what the Krakoan era has done with the Apocalypse mythos. I'm not sure where the relationship between them goes now.
    I also think the Apocalypse angst has run its course for Warren - but arguably, there was no better place to confront it and make it fresh and interesting than with Apocalypse being brought into the fold in the Krakoan era. As far as I'm aware, though, I don't think their history was ever addressed while Apocalypse was still around. Warren confronting Professor X and Jean over their ability to sit next to the monster who brainwashed him on the Quiet Council would have been an interesting story, but issues like that seem to have been waylaid in this era to fit the 'all mutants are good now' narrative.
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