What do you think of Bendis' X-Men stuff now?

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I'll say that the O5 thing went on way too long, but also, I didn't appreciate Teenage Jean as much as I should have as it was happening. On the whole though, a lot of the plotting went nowhere in Bendis' run and the stupid time-travel villains were antagonizing more because I wanted them to go away than because they were interesting.

Still though...kinda worth it for HBIC Jean. They could stand to reinstate a bit of the moxie and modernity Teen Jean had.

[BobbysWorld]

This is the opinion of a straight guy, but Jeen telling Bobby he was "fully gay" didn't seem off to me. Him suggesting he was bisexuality came across as bargaining rather than accepting himself - as in he can't outright deny things to a mind reader so he tried a halfway point.

And that was literally the problem with it, because it simply catered to the perception many straight people have that its a reasonable assumption to treat anyone saying they're bisexual as 'bargaining' or 'unwilling to commit to/accept being gay' rather than being innately predisposed enough to viewing it as a valid identity in its own right, that they're willing to even entertain the possibility that the person or character might have a point about themselves. It feeds into and perpetuates and validates the idea that the kneejerk impulse of reacting to someone who is exploring their sexuality or identity and saying 'I could be bi' by default assuming this person is wrong or self-deluding.....that this impulse, this reaction is the normal or correct response. Rather than assuming that well okay, this person is more likely to have a better sense of themselves than I have of them, so let's hear them out as to why they think they're bi instead of gay like I was assuming.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not upset that Bobby's gay instead of bi, but that label should have come from him. It is never anybody's place to respond to someone suggesting they might be bi by telling them they're wrong. Even a telepath only has her own frame of reference to work off of, and someone's identity should not be decreed based on someone else's frame of reference.

As I've always said, my big issue with the way Bendis wrote Bobby coming out was he had the character for YEARS and never made the slightest effort to suggest there was something more going on under the surface with Bobby until his literal last two issues with the character. Years where Bobby could have been laying groundwork for the reveal, exploring his identity on his own terms, and in all that time Bendis showed zero interest in using the character for anything but generic fight scenes, jokes, and to be a dumbass essentially, and then shoehorned in this change to the character's status quo in the very last two issues writing him, that forever cemented Bendis as being credited by plenty of people for making one of THE most impactful character developments Bobby's ever undergone.....

All without Bendis ever actually having to use his character or do any actual character development or growth with him in the several years time he was writing Bobby.

THAT'S the part I'll always resent, because he made Bobby a backseat passenger in what'll go down in comic book history as pretty much the most sizable shift in the character's overall direction, granting him no agency in the storyline that was ABOUT him. And that's one hundred percent on Bendis, not Jean, and so I'm not mad at Jean about it, I just think its annoying when writers write stories about a gay character's sexuality where the gay character has the least to do in the story itself. Nope, that bar is way too low for me. Like yeah, maybe without Bendis' clout we wouldn't have gotten gay Bobby, but there was literally nothing stopping Bendis from using his clout to make Bobby gay while actually giving him the dignity of a starring role in his own coming out narrative. It didn't have to be one or the other, Bendis just....didn't care enough about the story he was writing with Bobby to invest more time and energy in it than a few pages across two whole issues, and while other peoples' mileage may vary, that prioritization or lack thereof will always mar that particular story and character development for me.

[Nullviahomo]

Uneven, meandering, went on far too long with far too little to say. Y'know? BENDIS.

In particular, the whole 'Revolution' premise of Uncanny had great promise, especially when placed in opposition to the absolute inferno of wanky garbage being dished out under the WATXM banner. Cyclops dropping the whole 'Supreme Commander of Mutantkind' persona he'd adopted prior to AvX (spit) in favour of a return to old-school outlaw heroism was great for the character, leading a team of grizzled veterans and wide-eyed newbies fighting for mutant rights in a world that was more divided than ever between those that hated and feared them and those who had come to love and respect them.

There was soooo much raw potential there for a radical reappraisal of what the X-Men could and should be in the modern world, and it looked like Bendis was heading in that direction right up until the images of Cyclops blasting his way through the ranks of a racist Police Department to protect at-risk mutant teens from extra-judicial violence coupled with huge crowds of decent people being inspired by their struggle to stick two fingers up to the oppressive status-quo and protest for change seemed to scare the **** out of Marvel and its PR/Legal analysts. It came out at just the right time to make the X-Men relevant to the zeitgeist... but chickened out when it could have soared.

After that, with the entire raison d'etre of Uncanny deflated in favour of aimless shenanigans and throwing pleasant (but intimately pointless) shade at the godawful mess WATXM was making of its characters, it just sort of hung there for a while being boring until a new team took over.

And yeah, the O5 should have appeared for a year, joined Kitty in telling Professor Snickt McStormbanger to go shove his head down a used toilet, then returned to their own time having served a useful purpose. The only interesting things to come out of it that didn't revolve around Iceman were Tyke's time with the Champions and Beast's delving into dodgy magic (which, oh please, is going to be referenced as the reason he's turned into Everything X-Editorial Said Cyclops Was Between Schism and Krakoa But Clearly Wasn't).

Bendis. Second only to Millar in having good ideas that are wasted by being written by them in exactly the same way as every other story they've ever done.

[davetvs]

There were parts of it I liked. Rightclops was the most interesting the character had been in years at that point, and making Cyclops/Emma/Magneto/Magik the core team was an inspired lineup. They played very well off of each other and the morally ambiguous/somewhat secretive nature of each of them made it easy to bake intrigue and mystery into their team dynamics. I loved their costumes, and Bachalo's art. I also like the new student characters he introduced. Those tend to be hit or miss but Tempus, Goldballs, Triage, and Hijack were all memorable and interesting to read about, and I was glad he used the Cuckoos and Oya. So basically everything he was clearly inspired by Morrison to do, I liked.

The rest, no. His character work with most of the main stars was pretty poor (other than Cyclops). Bendis has a habit of making the characters sound like himself versus writing to the voice of the character (he's not the only one), but it's very obvious and grating when you choose to center a character like Emma Frost, who has a distinct voice, and then write her like Brian Bendis Written Character #65.

The time displaced O5 was also terrible. A cute idea that should've lasted a year AT MOST, with a finite endpoint and lessons learned for everyone. Instead it dragged on forever, assassinated Hank McCoy's character (Bendis is the one who made him irredeemable, imo), fucked with Jean Grey's long trolled fans by giving us a teenage version of Real Jean but not Actual Real Jean, and had to deal with IvX which is arguably the franchise's lowest point.

[Thievery]

I found it to be a mixed bag.

On my first read through I enjoyed Uncanny X-Men. Rereading it I'm not as fond of it today. I was a pretty big fan of Rightclopsat the time, a little less so now. Maybe because I know that Rightclops really ended up being proven right(in my mind at least) so I'm not as gung ho about him right know at this time. I also didn't enjoy his Emma as much after rereading it.

I enjoyed the ANXM. I thought that the time displaced O5 was a brilliant idea but the execution left a little to be desired. The O5 traveled to the future and ended up fighting things like Hydra and Sentinels. If I saw a solicit that said "What if the teen O5 traveled to the future to fight Sentinels for the first time" I would have found that to be a rediculous idea. The comic did better when the O5 were fighting modern foes like The Purifiers and Sabretooth and Mystique. I thought that it focused a little to much on just Scott and Jean. But overall I still really enjoyed it.

I would say that Bendis is the one who started Beast down the road of being the smug, evilish jerk that we have today.

I think that Bendis does deserve some defense on how his run ended. He didn't get to finish all of his stories because he was removed from the comics sooner than he realized that he would be. I believe that I read an interview about that somewhere.

[Sutekh]

Things I liked;

I read the teen 05 X-book because I *loved* Evan Sabah Nur, Oya and Pickles in it. I could give or take most of the teen 05 (teen Scott was the only one I liked), and didn't really like how they handled Laura or that other Wolverine-kid they were using at any given minute.

I really liked Goldballs, of all the new characters he introduced. (Tempus, on the other hand, ugh. Tempo, Kiden Nixon, Lacuna, Visionary, Sway, Jennifer Monroe. What's Tempus, time-chickie number *seven?*)

And the handling of Bobby's gay debut aside (I can't see anyway in which it wouldn't piss off someone, so I've got no stones to throw there), the fact that it happened was cool enough. Bendis had the juice to make a big swing there, and was willing to take the shot. And he didn't run out the door the hot second he dropped that grenade, as some writers might to on the way out the door, just to leave the place trashed and the fanbase riled up for the next writer to deal with. Whether or not everyone *or anyone!* agrees with how he handled it, he did at least, handle it, when others might have shied away from even touching it, or just dropped some queerbaiting hints and tee-hee'd behind his hand.

I could talk endless smack about the stuff I didn't like from Bendis' run, but everyone's already heard it all, so, boring!

I'd rate it 80% junk / 20% cool ideas, half-assedly developed.

[PolarIceFire]

Same as I did then, which is not much. Actually, probably even more so. And apparently, I'm not alone, as that unfavorable view seems to be shared by many (in this thread).

So yeah, if I had to, I'd say my feelings would reflect the overwhelmingly negative sentiments already eXpressed here -- and elsewhere -- by the vast majority.

WILDLY decompressed, and therefore... directionless, which ultimately led to it being impotent & unmemorable. It was gimmicky, w/stilted, stunted, staccato-like dialogue, and that's about it.

And that was literally the problem with it, because it simply catered to the perception many straight people have that its a reasonable assumption to treat anyone saying they're bisexual as 'bargaining' or 'unwilling to commit to/accept being gay' rather than being innately predisposed enough to viewing it as a valid identity in its own right, that they're willing to even entertain the possibility that the person or character might have a point about themselves. It feeds into and perpetuates and validates the idea that the kneejerk impulse of reacting to someone who is exploring their sexuality or identity and saying 'I could be bi' by default assuming this person is wrong or self-deluding.....that this impulse, this reaction is the normal or correct response. Rather than assuming that well okay, this person is more likely to have a better sense of themselves than I have of them, so let's hear them out as to why they think they're bi instead of gay like I was assuming.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not upset that Bobby's gay instead of bi, but that label should have come from him. It is never anybody's place to respond to someone suggesting they might be bi by telling them they're wrong. Even a telepath only has her own frame of reference to work off of, and someone's identity should not be decreed based on someone else's frame of reference.

As I've always said, my big issue with the way Bendis wrote Bobby coming out was he had the character for YEARS and never made the slightest effort to suggest there was something more going on under the surface with Bobby until his literal last two issues with the character. Years where Bobby could have been laying groundwork for the reveal, exploring his identity on his own terms, and in all that time Bendis showed zero interest in using the character for anything but generic fight scenes, jokes, and to be a dumbass essentially, and then shoehorned in this change to the character's status quo in the very last two issues writing him, that forever cemented Bendis as being credited by plenty of people for making one of THE most impactful character developments Bobby's ever undergone.....

All without Bendis ever actually having to use his character or do any actual character development or growth with him in the several years time he was writing Bobby.

THAT'S the part I'll always resent, because he made Bobby a backseat passenger in what'll go down in comic book history as pretty much the most sizable shift in the character's overall direction, granting him no agency in the storyline that was ABOUT him. And that's one hundred percent on Bendis, not Jean, and so I'm not mad at Jean about it, I just think its annoying when writers write stories about a gay character's sexuality where the gay character has the least to do in the story itself. Nope, that bar is way too low for me. Like yeah, maybe without Bendis' clout we wouldn't have gotten gay Bobby, but there was literally nothing stopping Bendis from using his clout to make Bobby gay while actually giving him the dignity of a starring role in his own coming out narrative. It didn't have to be one or the other, Bendis just....didn't care enough about the story he was writing with Bobby to invest more time and energy in it than a few pages across two whole issues, and while other peoples' mileage may vary, that prioritization or lack thereof will always mar that particular story and character development for me.

ALL of THIS - WELL SAID!! And ACCURATE, but that you had to (point out something so painfully obvious)... is INSULTING AF!!! Bobby's OWN story, HIS personal journey, was highjacked & then presented as nothing more than a mere afterthought... in the ongoing adventures of a narcissistic Jeen Preys.

That's why I can't take anybody who defends it seriously, and/or in good faith. Not just as Iceman or even general X-Men fans, but as good people in general. For IMO, they must lack even the simplest of social graces, and y'know... just common decency.

2 WORDS that immediately come to mind, re. Marvel & X-fandom... DISMISSIVE... DISRESPECT!!

[bishop66]

go back and the read the first 10 issues or so of all new x-men with 05 and this is from someone who hated the 05 storyline they were really good.
also some of his early issues of uncanny were quite good as well. But they got real bad real fast, battle of the atom was one of the worst x crossovers of all time,

also i know i mentioned this but towards the end people still have no clue on what the inhuman mandate was from the suits at marvel li think it was when uncanny did a one of those decimal issues and even bendis with all the massive success and leeway he had was forced to write and rewrite several of his books becuase of the inhuman garbage. i generally give everyone a pass who wrote x-men during that time because of what they were editorailly mandated to write

[davetvs]

And that was literally the problem with it, because it simply catered to the perception many straight people have that its a reasonable assumption to treat anyone saying they're bisexual as 'bargaining' or 'unwilling to commit to/accept being gay' rather than being innately predisposed enough to viewing it as a valid identity in its own right, that they're willing to even entertain the possibility that the person or character might have a point about themselves. It feeds into and perpetuates and validates the idea that the kneejerk impulse of reacting to someone who is exploring their sexuality or identity and saying 'I could be bi' by default assuming this person is wrong or self-deluding.....that this impulse, this reaction is the normal or correct response. Rather than assuming that well okay, this person is more likely to have a better sense of themselves than I have of them, so let's hear them out as to why they think they're bi instead of gay like I was assuming.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not upset that Bobby's gay instead of bi, but that label should have come from him. It is never anybody's place to respond to someone suggesting they might be bi by telling them they're wrong. Even a telepath only has her own frame of reference to work off of, and someone's identity should not be decreed based on someone else's frame of reference.

Let me start by saying I am a gay man, so I'm not trying to dismiss or invalidate anyone else's opinion on this subject, which has an inherent sensitivity: I had no problem with Teen Jean and Bobby's coming out scene. The subtext with Bobby had been there for decades, they were both clumsy teenage versions of themselves, and whether it was written in such a way that made sure to affirm bisexual identity or not (obviously, it wasn't -- this is part of the problem when you hand a franchise about identity politics and civil rights to straight white male after straight white male, ad infinitum), there are plenty of gay people who do try to claim bisexuality as a way to delude themselves about the reality of their orientation, in order to hold on to some scraps of heterosexual privilege, both, or for some other reason(s.) It actually felt very realistically written, as far as conversations with telepaths go. Sure, Bobby knows himself better than Jean knows him (debatable, bc telepathy) but it is incredibly common for men to come out as bisexual and have their social networks say "I've been waiting for you to admit that you're gay."

IDK, I definitely think it's valid to call out the bisexual erasure of that moment but it was still a realistic one, imo. I would rather see the actual X-Bisexuals like Mystique, Prodigy, Daken, Betsy, etc. have consistently visible representation. Iceman being a closet case who eventually comes out feels more right to me than him being bisexual, but everyone's mileage varies.

[PolarIceFire]

Doing good things is not the same as doing things right. Srsly F'n up the 2nd undermines the 1st, making it a whole lot less meaningful, as a result. That's what Bendis, and by eXtension Marvel, did to Bobby... w/their utter disregard.

Anybody who doubts and/or wants to carry on w/the pretense of not being offended, by way of their ridiculously desperate rationalizing, no less...
I have only 1 QUESTION:
Where, when, & how, do you ever see it being adapted elsewhere, in other media?
Honest answers only, PLEASE! (NOT Iceman bein' LGBTQ+ either, BTW, but the horrible way in which it was mishandled.)

[BobbysWorld]

Let me start by saying I am a gay man, so I'm not trying to dismiss or invalidate anyone else's opinion on this subject, which has an inherent sensitivity: I had no problem with Teen Jean and Bobby's coming out scene. The subtext with Bobby had been there for decades, they were both clumsy teenage versions of themselves, and whether it was written in such a way that made sure to affirm bisexual identity or not (obviously, it wasn't -- this is part of the problem when you hand a franchise about identity politics and civil rights to straight white male after straight white male, ad infinitum), there are plenty of gay people who do try to claim bisexuality as a way to delude themselves about the reality of their orientation, in order to hold on to some scraps of heterosexual privilege, both, or for some other reason(s.) It actually felt very realistically written, as far as conversations with telepaths go. Sure, Bobby knows himself better than Jean knows him (debatable, bc telepathy) but it is incredibly common for men to come out as bisexual and have their social networks say "I've been waiting for you to admit that you're gay."

IDK, I definitely think it's valid to call out the bisexual erasure of that moment but it was still a realistic one, imo. I would rather see the actual X-Bisexuals like Mystique, Prodigy, Daken, Betsy, etc. have consistently visible representation. Iceman being a closet case who eventually comes out feels more right to me than him being bisexual, but everyone's mileage varies.

For me its that thing where nothing is written in a vacuum, y'know? Every coming out narrative is ultimately a datapoint in the overall tapestry of coming out narratives, and its not that you're wrong about the fact that a gay teen initially claiming bisexuality before affirming that he's gay represents something that really happens in real life, its just.....there's no balance whatsoever to how often we see something like that play out in coming out narratives (many of which ARE written by straight writers) versus storylines that actually affirm bisexuality or don't just speedrun right past it as a viable possible identity for a character.

While I'm certainly not laying responsibility for the disproportionate nature of this sort of story at Bendis' feet, my gripe is that Bendis is still very much party to adding to that larger pattern, on the grounds that it further contributes to that disproportion and like.....it didn't need to.

There were other ways to write that story, and I firmly believe that raising and centering criticism like this particular element is necessary in order to push back against more of the same being repeated in the future. To keep it raised as a point of consideration so its not out of sight, out of mind, which is why I think it happened this way in this story in the first place - because that angle of things was out of Bendis' sight, out of his mind, something that simply was not on his radar as far as being something to keep in consideration when writing this story and how he went about it. There will always be more people reading and writing this sort of story from the perspective of an outsider rather than basing it on their own lived experiences, and thus the only way TO raise elements like this as something for future writers and readers to be cognizant of and take into consideration....is to just....keep having the conversation. So that these elements don't remain out of sight and out of mind for most people who aren't coming into or at this sort of story from the angle of lived experiences. Its not criticism simply for the sake of condemnation. Its criticism for the sake of keeping a conversation active and in peoples' awareness as important elements to consider when approaching this sort of story.

And again, as to the scene itself, let alone the character direction of making Bobby gay when as you point out, the subtext had already been there for decades - none of that is my issue. Its just like I said....the scene, that character direction, these were not choices made in a vacuum. My real gripe is with the relative lack of anything else beyond just those one or two basic scenes when Bendis had literal YEARS to do something with Bobby and chose to cram this major life-altering development into a few pages of his final two issues. That speaks to how much or how little he considered Bobby's story to be of importance on his own personal checklist of things to write or delve into over the course of the years where he had total access to this character and his stories. And thus regardless of how he wrote the actual few pages tackling this particular storyline......the complete lack of ANYTHING else done with Bobby's character beyond those handful of pages remains a giant, glaring omission that I think is just as important as the actual scene itself.

Like....Warren's cosmic fire wings storyline got more page time than Bobby's coming out. That's insane to me. Like.....that choice of priorities is A Choice, y'know? And that choice, that prioritization, is extremely relevant to discussion of Bendis' run, IMO, especially when you consider how often Bobby's coming out is hailed as one of the biggest (or even only) positives about the entire run.

I just find it very frustrating to see Bendis constantly hailed as being the best thing to ever happen to Bobby's character, simply because of the POTENTIAL that Bobby coming out unlocked for his future storylines.....when from pretty much any angle you look at it, Bobby's coming out narrative was treated by Bendis as barely more than a footnote at the very tail end of everything else he did, after he'd spent years telling the stories he ACTUALLY considered to be worth significant time and energy. *Shrugs* That dichotomy is pretty revealing, and what it reveals is not a good look IMO.

[davetvs]

For me its that thing where nothing is written in a vacuum, y'know? Every coming out narrative is ultimately a datapoint in the overall tapestry of coming out narratives, and its not that you're wrong about the fact that a gay teen initially claiming bisexuality before affirming that he's gay represents something that really happens in real life, its just.....there's no balance whatsoever to how often we see something like that play out in coming out narratives (many of which ARE written by straight writers) versus storylines that actually affirm bisexuality or don't just speedrun right past it as a viable possible identity for a character.

You're right, I totally agree with you. I had issues with Santana from Glee and Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer magically going from bisexual to lesbian, because it felt invalidating to the relationships we'd seen the characters have before (What about Oz?!?!?! Willow loved him!!!!!!). Which, even that is realistic, because plenty of gay people pretend to be straight and carry on with straight relationships before coming out. I personally didn't like it because both felt like obvious instances of the Bisexuality Isn't Real trope, which is very damaging to society at large.

I think the issue for me becomes that I'm incredibly wary of any element of my identity being treated as belonging to a monolith. As an African-American, it happens all the time. There's only one way to be African-American according to a lot of people, and if you deviate from that framework, you're "doing something wrong." This messaging comes from the internal community AND the external world, so while I do think Bendis' coming out story for Bobby deserves critical analysis, I'm nervous about the potential idea that there's "a right way" to do a coming out story. Especially because Bobby's coming out reminded me of my own, so it can be jarring to hear other people say anything that sounds like "This type of coming out story does not deserve to be represented."

[PolarIceFire]

Bendis & Marvel saw to it that what we got, was Bobby's coming out development, by way of Jeen. That it was more her (HAM-fisted) story, and overshadowed his, is what makes it mishandled & therefore... WRONG!

[davetvs]

Sis, relax. You are entitled to your opinion like I am entitled to mine. If you want to discuss it in a way that feels at all mature, let's do that. This thing you're doing now I don't have the patience for.

[Rift]

Oh dang, I forgot Bobby came out under Bendy's pen. I'll bump up my rating. Jean Gay was one of the funniest X-Men memes ever and I'll defend it to the death.