What do you think of Bendis' X-Men stuff now?

[BobbysWorld]

You're right, I totally agree with you. I had issues with Santana from Glee and Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer magically going from bisexual to lesbian, because it felt invalidating to the relationships we'd seen the characters have before (What about Oz?!?!?! Willow loved him!!!!!!). Which, even that is realistic, because plenty of gay people pretend to be straight and carry on with straight relationships before coming out. I personally didn't like it because both felt like obvious instances of the Bisexuality Isn't Real trope, which is very damaging to society at large.

I think the issue for me becomes that I'm incredibly wary of any element of my identity being treated as belonging to a monolith. As an African-American, it happens all the time. There's only one way to be African-American according to a lot of people, and if you deviate from that framework, you're "doing something wrong." This messaging comes from the internal community AND the external world, so while I do think Bendis' coming out story for Bobby deserves critical analysis, I'm nervous about the potential idea that there's "a right way" to do a coming out story. Especially because Bobby's coming out reminded me of my own, so it can be jarring to hear other people say anything that sounds like "This type of coming out story does not deserve to be represented."

That's understandable, and I definitely agree with the fact that there is no single right way to come out or be gay or bi, and we don't need monolithic representation since no marginalized group is a monolith. But the single biggest deterrent against depicting any marginalized identity as a monolith is just......more depictions. More stories, more page time, more writers, more characters, more BREADTH of variety, in regards to any given identity or any narrative like a coming out storyline. But tbh, I think this just plays directly into my discontentedness here? Because while Bendis could never be more than just the one singular writer he is himself, and he could never write more than one coming out narrative for Bobby.....if he'd just made it a bigger priority, invested more page time, more focus into crafting that particular development for Bobby......then that alone could have done so much to improve the story no matter HOW he went about writing it. Because with more focus on Bobby's coming out journey, with more time spent in Bobby's own head, or following Bobby's own choices or actions as he explored his newly changing sense of self......then inevitably, there would have been more room for Bobby to explore various avenues of his own potential identity HIMSELF. The truncated scene of quickly rushing past the notion of Bobby being bi to make sure everyone was clear that Bobby was definitively gay - would never have been an issue if Bobby had been given even a handful of issues to weigh that possibility more fully, and thus have it treated as a viable possibility that WAS given its due diligence before Bobby set it aside upon realizing that no, that particular label didn't actually fit him.

The problem wasn't the elements that story contained, the problem was the story was rushed - and the bigger problem that it didn't HAVE to be. Bendis had over four years to let that particular plotline breathe. He CHOSE to cram it into a six page sprint at the very last possible second. If the storyline had been given more care and consideration, most of the criticisms we're talking about here would likely have taken care of themselves, IMO.

Anyway, I don't mean to beat a dead horse and I think we've probably batted this around enough at this point, but ultimately for me it was the execution that was lacking, and I consider that lacking execution to be a direct result of how de-prioritized the storyline and beats felt in the grand scheme of Bendis' run and compared to other storylines.

And I don't want to say that it wasn't even any particular narrative choice Bendis made that I object to - like I want to be clear that everything you're saying about making a narrative choice to have Bobby be gay but first flirt with the possibility that he might be bi, not because he truly was but just because it felt safer in the moment, that's not inherently an objectionable choice to me and is an angle that has validity and deserves exploration - but the real narrative choice I object to is again, really just.....the lack of agency Bobby exhibited in his own coming out storyline. The lack of page time he was given to explore his options. The fact that we never even got a single scene of him talking with anybody BUT Jean and himself. All the 05 have different dynamics with each other, and frankly, Bobby and Jean were not portrayed as that close throughout Bendis' run, before that point. Even if Bendis had kept the scene where Jean had confronted Bobby about what she'd overheard in his thoughts....that STILL could have worked better IMO if she weren't used as simply a vehicle to get Bobby from Point A to Point Acceptance, solely for what felt like the sake of expediency. Like, one single additional scene where after Jean confronted him, Bobby sought out Scott or Warren to tentatively tip his toe into the idea of coming out on his own, for himself.....that alone could have changed so much about how that all read. But there was just no time for anything but the bare beats of Jean ushering Bobby through a fast-forward version of a coming out narrative without any time provided for Bobby to stop and slow down and ask himself what he wanted, what he was ready for, what he was feeling.....

Because ultimately, the story we got wasn't ABOUT Bobby, it was about....making sure that before Bendis left the title, he'd established that one of the original X-Men was gay.

Anyway, I do want to make clear that I get where you're coming from here and I don't disagree with any single particular point you've raised, I just think that in the larger context of Bendis' run, priorities and execution, there's plenty of room for your stance of "still being glad this story exists and we should talk about how and why" to coexist with my stance of "and I still think it could have been better, and we should talk about how and why."

[PolarIceFire]

Sis, relax. You are entitled to your opinion like I am entitled to mine. If you want to discuss it in a way that feels at all mature, let's do that. This thing you're doing now I don't have the patience for.

Gurl, please, I have no patience for nonsense... that I perceive as agitational. I said what I said, and I meant what I said. My only intent was to speak my mind & say my piece. Your thoughts on how I go about that were unsolicited & therefore unwanted, as in... rejected.

[davetvs]

A lot

Oh, for sure. I think we actually agree with each other pretty fully despite having different perspectives. I think even our chief discontent is probably the same, when you break it down: Bendis to me wrote the scene "as well as could be expected" (again, debatable, but) as a straight white dude. A writer who, idk, actually had to come out at some point, maybe, would've given that scene (and really, that broader plotline) the space and time it deserved. Especially since it was the culmination of decades of subtext. I actually thought Marjorie Liu's run was going to include Bobby coming out since she took special interest in exploring the character, but then it didn't.

Gurl, please, I have no patience for nonsense... that I perceive as agitational. I said what I said, and I meant what I said. My only intent was to speak my mind & say my piece. Your thoughts on how I go about that were unsolicited & therefore unwanted, as in... rejected.

Okay! It seems you're one of the characters who use this site to play pretend the personality you'd like to have in real life, so by all means, knock yourself out and have as much fun as possible. This little online world is your oyster, darling! I love your passion.

[PolarIceFire]

... Okay! It seems you're one of the characters who use this site to play pretend the personality you'd like to have in real life, so by all means, knock yourself out and have as much fun as possible. This little online world is your oyster, darling! I love your passion.

It's your story, tell it to yourself however you see fit.

[Kingdom X]

And that was literally the problem with it, because it simply catered to the perception many straight people have that its a reasonable assumption to treat anyone saying they're bisexual as 'bargaining' or 'unwilling to commit to/accept being gay' rather than being innately predisposed enough to viewing it as a valid identity in its own right, that they're willing to even entertain the possibility that the person or character might have a point about themselves. It feeds into and perpetuates and validates the idea that the kneejerk impulse of reacting to someone who is exploring their sexuality or identity and saying 'I could be bi' by default assuming this person is wrong or self-deluding.....that this impulse, this reaction is the normal or correct response. Rather than assuming that well okay, this person is more likely to have a better sense of themselves than I have of them, so let's hear them out as to why they think they're bi instead of gay like I was assuming.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not upset that Bobby's gay instead of bi, but that label should have come from him. It is never anybody's place to respond to someone suggesting they might be bi by telling them they're wrong. Even a telepath only has her own frame of reference to work off of, and someone's identity should not be decreed based on someone else's frame of reference.

As I've always said, my big issue with the way Bendis wrote Bobby coming out was he had the character for YEARS and never made the slightest effort to suggest there was something more going on under the surface with Bobby until his literal last two issues with the character. Years where Bobby could have been laying groundwork for the reveal, exploring his identity on his own terms, and in all that time Bendis showed zero interest in using the character for anything but generic fight scenes, jokes, and to be a dumbass essentially, and then shoehorned in this change to the character's status quo in the very last two issues writing him, that forever cemented Bendis as being credited by plenty of people for making one of THE most impactful character developments Bobby's ever undergone.....

All without Bendis ever actually having to use his character or do any actual character development or growth with him in the several years time he was writing Bobby.

THAT'S the part I'll always resent, because he made Bobby a backseat passenger in what'll go down in comic book history as pretty much the most sizable shift in the character's overall direction, granting him no agency in the storyline that was ABOUT him. And that's one hundred percent on Bendis, not Jean, and so I'm not mad at Jean about it, I just think its annoying when writers write stories about a gay character's sexuality where the gay character has the least to do in the story itself. Nope, that bar is way too low for me. Like yeah, maybe without Bendis' clout we wouldn't have gotten gay Bobby, but there was literally nothing stopping Bendis from using his clout to make Bobby gay while actually giving him the dignity of a starring role in his own coming out narrative. It didn't have to be one or the other, Bendis just....didn't care enough about the story he was writing with Bobby to invest more time and energy in it than a few pages across two whole issues, and while other peoples' mileage may vary, that prioritization or lack thereof will always mar that particular story and character development for me.

*starts slow clapping* said what needed to be said.

[Darkgreed]

Still hate it, that was a dark time being a X-men fan. The Jean grey School was the dumbest idea. "Cyclops is treating the kids like soldiers! he is being evil!"
Then in the first issue of Wolverine and the X-men they explain that every room in the Jean Grey school is a danger room and the kids have to fight at random time.
Cyclops couldn't use his powers for no reason.
O5 in the present time was so dumb, Jean outed Iceman. That could have been done way better.
Angel had Fire wings that they never explained on what happen to the new powers he got.
Beast learned Magic but forgot it when he got older.
Jean was so annoying to read, i wished she died again. She just used every guy in the X-men as a sidekick.
X-23 and Cyclops was a better couple than Angel and X-23
Cyclops and Bloodstorm was cool but they killed that before we could enjoy it

[Dizzystarr]

Meh he was good (til he wasn't) but at least at his worst he was never as bad as Chuck Austin

[M@Bowers2014]

One of the worst periods in X-History.

Clearly you haven't read any of Chuck Austen's run.

[ThomBoleyn]

I liked his run until he touched Dazzler. I had such high hopes for him working with her, he was very on the record of being a fan and he had tried to write her a few times previously. But NOPE. She got kidnapped, impersonated, and used as a blood bank by Mystique with no real arc or satisfactory payoff. Ruined the book for me and turned me off him as a writer. It just came off icky.
I liked his Magik and he had some good moments with Emma and Kitty, but wow the disappointment and anger I felt over his use of Alison hasn't been matched.

[Ambaryerno]

X-23 and Cyclops was a better couple than Angel and X-23

Logan's daughter and the younger version of Cyclops dating during the height of Schism practically writes itself. MAJOR missed opportunity here by Marvel.

[Mercury]

…fucked with Jean Grey's long trolled fans by giving us a teenage version of Real Jean but not Actual Real Jean, and had to deal with IvX which is arguably the franchise's lowest point.

First, we must’ve read a different run. Second, teenage Jean was and is “Actual Real Jean.” The X-Office has repeatedly established, including in this era, that the time-displaced O5 were and are the current O5, just, you know, time-displaced, i.e., they’re not AU versions. And I’m almost sure we can credit Bendis with Jean coming back as an adult in Phoenix Resurrection. He gave her much love, respect, excellent development, and deepened her already intricate and profound mythos.

[Exodus]

First, we must’ve read a different run. Second, teenage Jean was and is “Actual Real Jean.” The X-Office has repeatedly established, including in this era, that the time-displaced O5 were and are the current O5, just, you know, time-displaced, i.e., they’re not AU versions. And I’m almost sure we can credit Bendis with Jean coming back as an adult in Phoenix Resurrection. He gave her much love, respect, excellent development, and deepened her already intricate and profound mythos.

no, I guess both of you have read the same run. Some people simply have better taste than you. :-p

[Odd Rödney]

The thing I most appreciated about Bendis' run was that he continued Scott's evolution instead of walking him back to his typical status quo. He introduced some good ideas, like everything he did with Magik, helping move her from her amazing Wells/Gillen depiction into the more heroic version who is now so popular and connecting her to Doctor Strange in a way that's still true. Visually, I loved Uncanny X-Men's new costumes. The new kids were great as well, and we desperately needed some new mutants when that was the whole point of AvX's ending. The O5 to the present idea was novel and actually very fun and helped bring Jean back to prominence, and the writing of Jean was great (I don't blame Bendis for them overstaying their welcome after his run).

All-New X-Men had a little too much synergy with Bendis' other titles (GOTG, USM) that it lost track of itself sometimes.

I think the biggest problem was just that the run wasn't going anywhere. Somewhere around the incredibly long Last Will and Testament of Xavier arc the book completely lost steam and went nowhere. There's a line after Scott closes the school where Emma asks what they were even training the kids for and yells "What was the revolution?!". As a reader, I have the same question.

And execution aside, I will forever be happy Bendis outed Bobby. Bendis is the kind of creator who can push his weight to make that kind of thing happen (just like he does to create diverse characters) and I'm glad he put it out there and then let others tell the story in more depth.

Also, damn his run had some great art.

Bendis' best scenes were the downtime moments. Some particular favorite moments of his run that still stand out to me are:
- The first arc in general, with Cyclops vs. the Avengers
- Bendis using Kitty to dunk on Rick Remender
- The Emma/Teen Jean relationship
- The issue where Emma trains Ben Deeds to use his powers
- The scene in #600 where Magik and Colossus reconcile
- The scene in #600 where the two Bobbys talk

I pretty much agree with all the points made here. I would add that, for me, Bendis' story endings rarely land well. He struggles to tie things up in a manner I appreciate. I find that with a lot of his work and his X-Men stuff was really no exception.

[x-mind]

I think I was enjoying the first 12 issues of his UXM run. I have decided to delete from my memory everything that came after the joke that was Battle of the Atom (i remember Bendis was advertising it as the biggest event of all time). There were some good ideas in the beginning, even though they never really flourished. We never saw a revolution materializing despite the high promises. The big bad robot who was hunting Cyclops and his team was Dark Beast. The highly teased Utopians team lasted like an issue and then we never heard from them again. The will and testament of Professor X was overextended and in the end, it didn't matter anyway because Tempus travelled to the past and changed this sequence of events from taking place. But I still remember how he killed exodus in a page or two, and then he stated that "not even 10 people care about Exodus". I hope he is reading how amazingly the character is written now by Gillen and Hickman.

I was never a fan of the 05 X-men coming to the future. It was the time the mutants were back on earth in high numbers and somehow instead of focusing on the new mutants we were focusing on the teen versions of the 05. But again I agree with most people here it should have been a completed mini-series with a beginning and an end. Then he changed Beast' appearance to resemble an ape physique, destroying the nice touch of reverse evolution power, which has been established by Morisson. And i cannot forget the awful way Iceman came out. Yeah it was good that happened but the erasure of his self-determination as bi was really problematic.

[Krakoa]

go back and the read the first 10 issues or so of all new x-men with 05 and this is from someone who hated the 05 storyline they were really good.
also some of his early issues of uncanny were quite good as well. But they got real bad real fast, battle of the atom was one of the worst x crossovers of all time,

also i know i mentioned this but towards the end people still have no clue on what the inhuman mandate was from the suits at marvel li think it was when uncanny did a one of those decimal issues and even bendis with all the massive success and leeway he had was forced to write and rewrite several of his books becuase of the inhuman garbage. i generally give everyone a pass who wrote x-men during that time because of what they were editorailly mandated to write

I also hated Battle of the Atom, though my understanding is that it was more of an Aaron-led crossover that the other books participated in.