How old should Diana be when she first comes to Man's World?

[Perseus]

Is it not good and justified storytelling to have Diana be unknown about the outside world and forced to stay despite wanting to see more because that's who she is?

Diana isn't Clark, she frankly should be around those conflicts if it helps her learn to be an established leader archetype. She should and almost actively does use Themyscira as an example of a better world.

Again, Diana is an immortal, 30 some years would be a blink and you'll miss it moment for her.

If you're going with the well of souls thing with Mala, maybe make Diana actually around her age... 17 and 20 is questionable kind of. I really don't see how the Well needs to influence this either. Part of the Well's cool factor is that it hasen't been active since Diana was/Nubia came out, kind of a big thing in that story. I assumed they meant long time as hundreds if not thousands of years.

And not all of those need to be in the present.

[Zagre]

Personally, I like when Diana's discovery of Man's World ties into her growth and development as a person, something that becomes way too abstract when she's already over a hundred years old and thus has all that exprience. So I prefer she's here with a "human" age. But it depends on the story really, I'm not really championing one option or the other. The only thing I don't like is when she's visited Man's World in the past or she arrives in World War II and then sits out every other important moment in history. Whether she's 20, 30 or 200 years old she should discover Man's World for the first time in the modern era, in my opinion.

[Guy_McNichts]

- This is the biggest for me: It centers her relationship with Hippolyta in her story and makes her departure all the more heartbreaking. I cried at the end of Historia because it was so devastating that Hippolyta's glimmer of hope when she'd lost everything was a daughter she was doomed to lose. That story loses almost all of its power when she has thousands of years to build herself back up before Diana's birth and only has her for a tiny piece of her immortal life.

Or consider that Hippolyta spent centuries yearning for a daughter and finally got one...for two decades and change.
That's pretty heartbreaking as well.

- It strengthens Diana's immigrant mindset. If she's 30 and then spends 100 years in Man's World, it weakens the "stranger in a strange land" element that's central to her character. It also connects her to her people's healing process and shows her what it looks like for a society to build free from the bonds of oppression, which would shape her mission and perspective on things quite a bit.

For the record, I don't want Diana spending a hundred years in Man's World. I don't know about anyone else, but when I say I want her to leave Themyscira in her mid-twenties, I also mean in modern day. Not World War II.

- It gets rid of any possible weirdness with her dating other Amazons. I think it's fine for a 20-30something Diana to date other Amazons in any case, but the biggest point of contention I've seen is that it'd be odd for other Amazons to pursue her when she's the baby. If she's older, that problem goes away - what's a 20some year age gap when both parties are hundreds or even thousands of years old? Her being condemned to chastity on the island makes her decision to leave less meaningful IMO.

This is the only real issue I see with Diana only being as old as she looks. Because, yeah, she'd probably still be seen as the "baby" of Themyscira even in her twenties and other Amazons would likely feel weird getting romantic with her.

But, putting aside the Well of Souls angle, I imagine if she did find a girlfriend--Mala for instance--it would've likely taken serious convincing and courting on Diana's part. "I am an adult! Please give this a chance!"
And then again, even that would be somewhat heartbreaking for Diana. If she managed to get Mala to love her back and be okay with the age difference...just for Steve to crash a few years later and she enters the Contest to leave.

I think there is something to be said for Diana giving up paradise and everything she knows and loves while she's still relatively young--at least compared to her sisters. She always longed for a purpose and to see the outside world only for that opportunity to come before she's ready. There is conflict and drama there.

I understand wanting to downplay or avoid the "chosen one" elements, but she is the center of the story. She's the protagonist.

Again, Diana is an immortal, 30 some years would be a blink and you'll miss it moment for her.

Not if she is thirty herself. The whole "time is a drop in the ocean" bit only works when the immortal in question is already thousands of years old. If Diana is only in her 20s-30s, she only knows those twenty to thirty years. Hundreds of years from now, she might look back on it as a blink, but in the moment, that's the only life she knows.

And honestly, for me, that's another reason I prefer Diana young (and another reason I hate starting her out in the 40s). I'd like to see her come to grips with the gravity of her immortality as it happens in the moment. If she's in her twenties or so, she hasn't really grasped yet just how long she's going to live, and by extension in the Man's World, outlive the people around her.

[Koriand'r]

I hate the really old but looks young trope, she's not Samantha Stephens. You can forgive a lack of experience, wisdom and judgement in someone that's 20, versus someone that's hundreds of years old. In the past she's been far too naive and gullible for a person that's been around that long. It either makes her look dumb or ineffective.

[bardkeep]

Yeah, plenty of fair points. Again, I'm open to either as long as the story justifies the approach. The only strong opinion I have is that I don't think she should stop physically aging any earlier than her late 20s. And I like the Well of Souls explanation for her relationships with other Amazons - one of many reasons why I think the reimagined Well is one of the best additions to the lore in some time.

Do just want to address these though:

Or consider that Hippolyta spent centuries yearning for a daughter and finally got one...for two decades and change.
That's pretty heartbreaking as well.

Don't disagree, but IMO it still packs nowhere near the wallop of her appearing when Hippolyta's greatest wound is still fresh and she's at her lowest moment. But obviously just because it's the most tragic doesn't mean it's the best or only way to do it.

For the record, I don't want Diana spending a hundred years in Man's World. I don't know about anyone else, but when I say I want her to leave Themyscira in her mid-twenties, I also mean in modern day. Not World War II.

Agreed, but that's not totally relevant to my point. If she enters the outside world in 2020, you run into the same issue in 2120. Unless you mean you don't think she should be immortal or should go back to Themyscira after a certain amount of time or something like that.

I'll also say that I used to be more (though never passionately) on the side of her leaving when she's younger, but Historia changed my tune. Will be very, very sad if we don't get more of it because I'm so curious to know how Kelly Sue approaches her growing up with the island.

[Alpha]

Is it not good and justified storytelling to have Diana be unknown about the outside world and forced to stay despite wanting to see more because that's who she is?

A character acting out of character isn't good or justifiable storytelling. The amazons can't force her to stay there. She only stays there while they convince her that she shouldn't leave. And no way, no how, would Diana be convinced her purpose is staying in paradise island for 100 years.


And I assume that the reason why you are bringing up leadership skills while talking about 100 years rather than 30 years, is because you think Diana should be a master strategist. I don't understand that sentiment. 30 years of extreme training is incredible training. And I don't see why we would want her to be a grandmaster. She isn't supposed to come out of Paradise Island fully formed, she needs space for growth.

Diana isn't Clark, she frankly should be around those conflicts if it helps her learn to be an established leader archetype. She should and almost actively does use Themyscira as an example of a better world.

Again, Diana is an immortal, 30 some years would be a blink and you'll miss it moment for her.

As other people here said, that's not how immortality works. Specially when the person hasn't lived a full lifetime.

If you're going with the well of souls thing with Mala, maybe make Diana actually around her age... 17 and 20 is questionable kind of. I really don't see how the Well needs to influence this either.

I figure it's kind of silly for Diana not to somewhat explore her sexuality while she's a teenager, so I picked 17 since it's a reasonable age. And Mala as 20 just because the amazons don't really age and if Diana eventually gets older than Mala, that would be even weirder I feel. I think 17-20 is a reasonable difference in the context of Paradise Island.

Part of the Well's cool factor is that it hasen't been active since Diana was/Nubia came out, kind of a big thing in that story. I assumed they meant long time as hundreds if not thousands of years.

Personally, I think that part of the well of souls was a mistake. They just introduced it to create some kind of symbolic parallel between Nubia and Diana's birth, which could've been done in various orher ways.

[Perseus]

I hate the really old but looks young trope, she's not Samantha Stephens. You can forgive a lack of experience, wisdom and judgement in someone that's 20, versus someone that's hundreds of years old. In the past she's been far too naive and gullible for a person that's been around that long. It either makes her look dumb or ineffective.

She's dumb and ineffective now, have you read JL? Diana at 3,000 would have experience sure, but on the island. She would have knowledge, but on the island. Frankly she should be at the height of wisdom and judgment, or we can throw Athena under the bus for having a poor gift.

[Perseus]

A character acting out of character isn't good or justifiable storytelling. The amazons can't force her to stay there. She only stays there while they convince her that she shouldn't leave. And no way, no how, would Diana be convinced her purpose is staying in paradise island for 100 years.


And I assume that the reason why you are bringing up leadership skills while talking about 100 years rather than 30 years, is because you think Diana should be a master strategist. I don't understand that sentiment. 30 years of extreme training is incredible training. And I don't see why we would want her to be a grandmaster. She isn't supposed to come out of Paradise Island fully formed, she needs space for growth.


As other people here said, that's not how immortality works. Specially when the person hasn't lived a full lifetime.



I figure it's kind of silly for Diana not to somewhat explore her sexuality while she's a teenager, so I picked 17 since it's a reasonable age. And Mala as 20 just because the amazons don't really age and if Diana eventually gets older than Mala, that would be even weirder I feel. I think 17-20 is a reasonable difference in the context of Paradise Island.


Personally, I think that part of the well of souls was a mistake. They just introduced it to create some kind of symbolic parallel between Nubia and Diana's birth, which could've been done in various orher ways.

No, the Amazons can't, the gods probably could. Or maybe she grows up thinking this, Themyscira, is all there is and it's Steve's crashlanding that changes everything. And being an adventurer is not the only thing that Diana is.

I don't understand your need for her to be to 30 years old.

And to be fair to my previous comment about her age, that gets retconned even in continuity. In the NU 52 for example she was also originally in her early twenties, then Grail showed up and she was also born at the same time as Diana, which turned out to be during the roman age, thousands of years ago. Historia is the most recent example. Perez did have her show up in the early 20th century but I'm pretty sure that ended up being changed down the line too, I don't fully recall.

I get that 17 is when people really start exploring, just make her 18, trust me, save yourself the trouble.

Well, they could have but they didn't. Nubia could have also been Diana's twin but they didn't do that either. I frankly think that its a cool mystery that the Well hasn't been used in a thousand years. The amazons probably thought that this was the extent of their tribe. And the shocking thing ended up being shocking.

[Alpha]

No, the Amazons can't, the gods probably could. Or maybe she grows up thinking this, Themyscira, is all there is and it's Steve's crashlanding that changes everything.

And being an adventurer is not the only thing that Diana is.

Her wanting to make a difference, and her wanting to discover all the wonders in the world. Those are the two main character drivers for Diana as a character in my favorite takes on her.

I don't understand your need for her to be to 30 years old.

It's what she has been 9 times out of 10. There are few stories where she was suggested to be any older than that. And those stories that did show her as older than that when she left the island, were part of the least popular eras / versions of Wonder Woman (aside from Historia). The idea of her being 100 years old is the big departure, and none of the reasons people have brought up so far seem to me to be decisive.

As far as I can see, the reason why people want this whole ghing of her being older is because they want her to be more experienced, even though that's what coming to Man's world is about, and even though 100 years training isn't any better than 30, it it's always with the same people that have a limited amount of knowledge to share, and haven't been in a war for thousands of years.

[Guy_McNichts]

Another reason I think Diana, though immortal, should be in her early twenties when she leaves Themyscira is making her hundreds-thousands of years old indirectly opens the door to bad ideas like this:



For context, yes, this is a CBR article that suggested Nightwing should date Wonder Woman.

When shipping Diana with any of the Robins seems a viable direction, we have a problem. I think it was bad enough they de-aged Zatanna so she could get shipped with Dick in Young Justice.

[WonderScott]

She should be 2,527 years old on her next birthday.

[Agent Z]

Another reason I think Diana, though immortal, should be in her early twenties when she leaves Themyscira is making her hundreds-thousands of years old indirectly opens the door to bad ideas like this:



For context, yes, this is a CBR article that suggested Nightwing should date Wonder Woman.

When shipping Diana with any of the Robins seems a viable direction, we have a problem. I think it was bad enough they de-aged Zatanna so she could get shipped with Dick in Young Justice.

Are we sure this wasn't a joke article? Like something from The Onion?

[BiteTheBullet]

She should be 2,527 years old on her next birthday.

I would go with this, but we should add 46 years since she said this in 1977

[WonderNight]

Are we sure this wasn't a joke article? Like something from The Onion?

Whatever I love it Nothing wrong with Wonder Mommy

[WonderScott]

I would go with this, but we should add 46 years since she said this in 1977

Absolutely! I’m glad you picked up on what I was putting down.