AVENGERS vs JL

[Masterff]

People say that JL is clear stronger, BUT based on what?

A) Scarlet Witch should theoretically be the most powerful characters of both teams or? I mean Zatanna and Dr. Fate are powerful, but still below Scarlet Witch or?
B) If you just call the 6-7 most powerful characters then I still think Avengers would have a good chance of winning.

Superman/Wonder Woman/Captain Atom/Shazam/Dr. Fate/Martian Manhunter vs Sentry/Hyperion/Thor/Scarlet Witch/Blue Marvel/Gladiator (ok he was never an Avenger-if I remember right) would be a good battle.

[Rightoya]

Bog-standard Scarlet Witch is definitively not stronger than Kent Doctor Fate, but him and Zatanna were recently just Justice League Dark members anyway, and that are not the strongest members if you talk about anyone who was in the Justice League at some point, a Flash for example would be definitely part of the team, and technically even the Spectre.

[StupidMoniker]

JLA tends to have more superspeed flying bricks than the Avengers. The OG Avengers, for example, had Iron Man, Thor, Ant-Man, Wasp, and Hulk. Thor is the only one there with any superspeed and he is still a statue to the likes of Superman. OG JLA is Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern and Flash. Probably 4 or 5 of them could solo the OG Avengers lineup. The Avengers don't really get a team wrecker that could take the OG JLA until maaayybe the Sentry (40 years into their run), and that's if MM doesn't render him catatonic. If you go most powerful, you have to deal with things like Despero, the Phantom Stranger, and Dr. Fate and Zatanna with speed lend from Flash. Was Spectre in the JLA? I didn't see him in the wikipedia list of JLA members (except in the LEGO version), but that may not be an accurate or complete list.

[Alan2099]

JLA tends to have more superspeed flying bricks than the Avengers. The OG Avengers, for example, had Iron Man, Thor, Ant-Man, Wasp, and Hulk. Thor is the only one there with any superspeed and he is still a statue to the likes of Superman. OG JLA is Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern and Flash. Probably 4 or 5 of them could solo the OG Avengers lineup. The Avengers don't really get a team wrecker that could take the OG JLA until maaayybe the Sentry (40 years into their run), and that's if MM doesn't render him catatonic. If you go most powerful, you have to deal with things like Despero, the Phantom Stranger, and Dr. Fate and Zatanna with speed lend from Flash. Was Spectre in the JLA? I didn't see him in the wikipedia list of JLA members (except in the LEGO version), but that may not be an accurate or complete list.

I don't know when they first mentioned it but at some point they declared all of the Golden Age JSA members honorary JLA members.

[StupidMoniker]

I don't know when they first mentioned it but at some point they declared all of the Golden Age JSA members honorary JLA members.

Then, in addition to Spectre, they get a 5-D imp as well.

[Alan2099]

Yeah, but the Avengers have Squirrel Girl.

[big_adventure]

Bog-standard Scarlet Witch is definitively not stronger than Kent Doctor Fate, but him and Zatanna were recently just Justice League Dark members anyway, and that are not the strongest members if you talk about anyone who was in the Justice League at some point, a Flash for example would be definitely part of the team, and technically even the Spectre.

"Bog-standard" Scarlet Witch is, by virtue of being a universal-level reality warper, definitely more powerful than Kent Nelson as Fate. However, she's not surviving a blitz by kryptonians (or their analogues) or a high-end Flash.

Marvel generally doesn't give out high-end superspeed to every other character like DC does, so Marvel often suffers in this match.

In this case, however, Sentry is there. Sentry can obliterate everyone (maybe) on the DC side, even though many are quicker than he is. Sentry's risk against DC before was dealing with Martian Manhunter, who has (had? dunno about current...) near-light reactions AND high-end telepathy. We used to accept, more or less, that MM could shut down Sentry more often than not. However, Sentry has been through a bunch of evolutions since then, and has had several explicit powerups, so I don't know if that's still the case.

Avengers lineups have also included Dr. Strange. Strange might well be enough to win most of this on his own (autoshields tank supernovas and every kind of esoteric imaginable) and he can certainly kick J'onn out of Sentry's brain once he gets the chance to react, which turns Sentry back onto the rest of the other side, which doesn't go well for them.

Finally, you mention Spectre. If a decent version of Spectre is involved, I'm pretty sure he seals the deal for DC. Wanda could maybe do something about the guy, but, as pointed out, they can't protect her from getting obliterated at the bell, so she won't get the chance.

[Sharpandpointies]

Avengers lineups have also included Dr. Strange. Strange might well be enough to win most of this on his own (autoshields tank supernovas and every kind of esoteric imaginable) and he can certainly kick J'onn out of Sentry's brain once he gets the chance to react, which turns Sentry back onto the rest of the other side, which doesn't go well for them.

We need some clarity, here.

Strange's basic/autoshields tank exploding planets (and protect him from getting punched in half by the Juggernaut, stop Yandroth's 'Q-Ray Blaster' - I am not making this up - etc).

The supernova feat involved him protecting his body by having his astral form cast the Crimson Bands on it for a shield. Now, the Crimson Bands are pretty up there with regards to 'tough stuff Strange can make', but this feat also has the caveat that the spell was cast by his astral form, which weakens the Bands. Not a huge amount, but somewhat. So it's a pretty impressive shielding feat, but it's an active shielding feat, requiring him to buff his shield, cast spells, etc.

...also, the Strange that was on the Avengers was pretty firmly in Fern-Buster™ territory, having been savagely beaten with a nerf bat in order to keep him from solving problems involving ninja with a snap of the fingers.

We could say 'Current Strange', but that gets into weird (and amusing) territory, as Current Strange is either Clea Strange (gales of laughter) or spoilers:

The Harvester (also much laughter).

end of spoilers.

[big_adventure]

We need some clarity, here.

Strange's basic/autoshields tank exploding planets (and protect him from getting punched in half by the Juggernaut, stop Yandroth's 'Q-Ray Blaster' - I am not making this up - etc).

The supernova feat involved him protecting his body by having his astral form cast the Crimson Bands on it for a shield. Now, the Crimson Bands are pretty up there with regards to 'tough stuff Strange can make', but this feat also has the caveat that the spell was cast by his astral form, which weakens the Bands. Not a huge amount, but somewhat. So it's a pretty impressive shielding feat, but it's an active shielding feat, requiring him to buff his shield, cast spells, etc.

...also, the Strange that was on the Avengers was pretty firmly in Fern-Buster™ territory, having been savagely beaten with a nerf bat in order to keep him from solving problems involving ninja with a snap of the fingers.

We could say 'Current Strange', but that gets into weird (and amusing) territory, as Current Strange is either Clea Strange (gales of laughter) or spoilers:

The Harvester (also much laughter).

end of spoilers.

Yeah, I didn't want to get too much into "which version" and just kind of take the "consistent-ish high-end version absent one-off powerups and stuff," though I have no idea what the OP was looking for.

I forgot this (somehow, given that the same poster used this character in another thread and I participated in it...): Thor is currently, and has been for a while, rocking Allfather status, and that lets him wipe out any JL person not named Spectre while ignoring what they can deliver to him.

[Jcogginsa]

A thought occurs re: Wanda

In recent x-Men comics, Wanda fucks around with the afterlife by creating a process which sends Mutant souls to a special afterlife, to help expend on their ressurection protocols. Because doing this also involves some space time fuckery, this story ends with present day Wanda fusing with an elderly future Wanda (who is with her in the after life) and a living clone of her without access to her full memories.

All this to say: Since Wanda can still use her powers after she dies, would that mean that the Justice League killing her would not take her out of the fight?

[cam18]

People say that JL is clear stronger, BUT based on what?

A) Scarlet Witch should theoretically be the most powerful characters of both teams or? I mean Zatanna and Dr. Fate are powerful, but still below Scarlet Witch or?
B) If you just call the 6-7 most powerful characters then I still think Avengers would have a good chance of winning.

Superman/Wonder Woman/Captain Atom/Shazam/Dr. Fate/Martian Manhunter vs Sentry/Hyperion/Thor/Scarlet Witch/Blue Marvel/Gladiator (ok he was never an Avenger-if I remember right) would be a good battle.

Scarlet Witch is far from the most powerful character on either team...not sure where that notion even comes from........Superman, Flash, Martian Manhunter, Various Green Lanterns including Ion Kyle, Dr Fate, Zatanna just to name a few....historically Scarlet Witch is not the powerhouse of the Avengers its Thor.

[Shellhead]

Scarlet Witch is far from the most powerful character on either team...not sure where that notion even comes from........Superman, Flash, Martian Manhunter, Various Green Lanterns including Ion Kyle, Dr Fate, Zatanna just to name a few....historically Scarlet Witch is not the powerhouse of the Avengers its Thor.

Scarlet Witch can alter reality on a planetary scale, but a mook with a gun could blow her brains out. And while she has bragged about being trained by Cap, she really can't take a punch.

[Alan2099]

Scarlet Witch can alter reality on a planetary scale, but a mook with a gun could blow her brains out. And while she has bragged about being trained by Cap, she really can't take a punch.

It's the whole glass canon thing. She COULD take out Superman, Dr. Fate, whoever... but she needs to be able to do that before they can react or before anyone can hit her.

[Wildling]

Scarlet Witch can alter reality on a planetary scale, but a mook with a gun could blow her brains out. And while she has bragged about being trained by Cap, she really can't take a punch.

I recall Hawkeye shot her in the back with the full intention to kill her and she warped the arrow off and got up like nothing happened. So her warping-ness can work for the effect of taking a punch, though assuming it works all the way up to a Superman punch is probably too much of a stretch.

[Captain Smith]

An arrow isn't an instant killer in most cases and if she retains consciousness, she can warp the attack away. Can she warp away something like an infinite mass punch at light speed into her head? If it hits, I don't think so unless she has set up some out of physical instantiation consciousness, like an astral body able to use her powers.