AVENGERS vs JL

[Captain Morgan]

The term "Canis Major System," is a bit misnomer because "Canis Major" could refer to either a constellation [sic: a collection of stars and systems] or a Dwarf Galaxy that is intertwined with the Milky Way Galaxy, so depending on where in those enormous spaces Superman was sent, this could refer to distances of anywhere of any from 8.6 Lightyears away (Sirius) up to 25,000 lightyears (parts of the Monoceros Ring).

He might have meant the system around the star VY Canis Majoris which is ~3,900 lightyears, so that's pretty far.

But like, our nearest spiral galaxy [as in a galaxy on the same scale as the Milky Way], Andromeda, is 2,000,000 lightyears away so the difference in the distances are pretty profound.

It is also a travel feat, so it doesn't entirely matter. What's more impressive, though, is that he was able to get teleported into a distant chunk of space with no frame of reference, reorient himself, and then locate Earth within moments. Even with super senses that's an incredible amount of information to sort through.

[Sharpandpointies]

In fairness, Clark travelling even 8.9 lightyears in...what, a few seconds? Is a pretty awesome travel speed feat.

[Captain Morgan]

In fairness, Clark travelling even 8.9 lightyears in...what, a few seconds? Is a pretty awesome travel speed feat.

Sure, but it is still a travel feat. If they don't count as evidence of combat reactions for Thor and Sentry they shouldn't count for Supes either. So it is a great feat to demonstrate his overall scale of ability, bad for rumbles. (But again, sorting where he actually needed to go seems like you could make a case for reaction speed, maybe.)

[Nik Hasta]

Just to check, those two images are definitely sequential, right?

I only ask because Luther's conversation on the second page doesn't seem to match up with the ending of the previous one.

[Sharpandpointies]

Sure, but it is still a travel feat. If they don't count as evidence of combat reactions for Thor and Sentry they shouldn't count for Supes either. So it is a great feat to demonstrate his overall scale of ability, bad for rumbles. (But again, sorting where he actually needed to go seems like you could make a case for reaction speed, maybe.)

Oh, I wouldn't at all use it for combat, no.

But it might help indicating that Clark is, indeed, better than before. So if he starts pulling out substantially better combat speed feats, one could point at this travel feat and say 'Yeah, but he HAS been increasing in power, says so, and has other feats to substantiate that increase in power'.

[Sharpandpointies]

Good lord, but the feat is nearly worthless for exact distances. It's exactly as Nik says; 'Canis Major system' could, indeed, refer to any number of distances, and it's shocking that an intellectual of Luthor's supposed ability used that kind of phrasing. ^_^

[Jcogginsa]

The comic is action comics 1050. There is indeed a page between those two images

What's happening here isn't really a speed feat at all. What Superman is doing is essentially using the bio-electric powers (similar to what he had in All-Star Superman) to make a wormhole of some kind. Possibly by forcing the one Lex sent him through back open, or possibly by flat out creating a boom tube. (The visual looks kind of similar, and Clark got exposed to some God Stuff in the preceeding storyline, so he's a bit boosted.)

You can kind of tell it's a wormhole in those pages, but it's more obvious in the missing page. You can see a mountain range on the other side

[Sharpandpointies]

Whoo, boy.

*goes to look*

Yep, there's a whole thing going on in that missing page, just like Jcogginsa describes.

[Nik Hasta]

The comic is action comics 1050. There is indeed a page between those two images

What's happening here isn't really a speed feat at all. What Superman is doing is essentially using the bio-electric powers (similar to what he had in All-Star Superman) to make a wormhole of some kind. Possibly by forcing the one Lex sent him through back open, or possibly by flat out creating a boom tube. (The visual looks kind of similar, and Clark got exposed to some God Stuff in the preceeding storyline, so he's a bit boosted.)

You can kind of tell it's a wormhole in those pages, but it's more obvious in the missing page. You can see a mountain range on the other side

Boy am I glad I asked. Not a speed feat at all.

[greatmetropolitan]

Apologies all, my fault. I thought Id had all the pages in sequence but mucked it up.

But hey, at least Lex has wormhole feats now? ^_^

[Rightoya]

"Bog-standard" Scarlet Witch is, by virtue of being a universal-level reality warper, definitely more powerful than Kent Nelson as Fate. However, she's not surviving a blitz by kryptonians (or their analogues) or a high-end Flash.

What is even going on at Marvel, how are they writting their normal stories if the give their superheroes cosmical super-version as their current standard?

Marvel generally doesn't give out high-end superspeed to every other character like DC does, so Marvel often suffers in this match.

In this case, however, Sentry is there. Sentry can obliterate everyone (maybe) on the DC side, even though many are quicker than he is. Sentry's risk against DC before was dealing with Martian Manhunter, who has (had? dunno about current...) near-light reactions AND high-end telepathy. We used to accept, more or less, that MM could shut down Sentry more often than not. However, Sentry has been through a bunch of evolutions since then, and has had several explicit powerups, so I don't know if that's still the case.

Those three in normal forms have zero chance against Sentry or current Thor.

Superman ok, but if even a sub light Martian Manhunter could theoretically shut Sentry down, what defenses has Sentry even against high end soul manpulation or speed force shenanigans of even faster characters?

Avengers lineups have also included Dr. Strange. Strange might well be enough to win most of this on his own (autoshields tank supernovas and every kind of esoteric imaginable) and he can certainly kick J'onn out of Sentry's brain once he gets the chance to react, which turns Sentry back onto the rest of the other side, which doesn't go well for them.

Finally, you mention Spectre. If a decent version of Spectre is involved, I'm pretty sure he seals the deal for DC. Wanda could maybe do something about the guy, but, as pointed out, they can't protect her from getting obliterated at the bell, so she won't get the chance.

I have to check which version of Spectre counted as a member, but if we are already talking about versions, multiple cosmical super-versions of Superman and Wonder Woman were actually still members of the Justice League, and at least the versions of Scarlet Witch, Sentry and Dr Stange you mentioned or a Thor with not even the full Odin Force would not stack up well to these.

Superman has had a big power boost lately - I think the only feat to its name is coming back from another galaxy in seconds, but that's still hella fast and has an impact here. Writer says he's at pre-crisis levels now. Like I say, feats aren't there yet as it's only just occurred.

Superman and Wonder Woman had both a big power boost in the later part of Rebirth, and there he had speed feats he actually could translate into combat, like building the moon out of little pieces back together in the time of a short conversation:

[big_adventure]

What is even going on at Marvel, how are they writting their normal stories if the give their superheroes cosmical super-version as their current standard?



Superman ok, but if even a sub light Martian Manhunter could theoretically shut Sentry down, what defenses has Sentry even against high end soul manpulation or speed force shenanigans of even faster characters?



I have to check which version of Spectre counted as a member, but if we are already talking about versions, multiple cosmical super-versions of Superman and Wonder Woman were actually still members of the Justice League, and at least the versions of Scarlet Witch, Sentry and Dr Stange you mentioned or a Thor with not even the full Odin Force would not stack up well to these.




Superman and Wonder Woman had both a big power boost in the later part of Rebirth, and there he had speed feats he actually could translate into combat, like building the moon out of little pieces back together in the time of a short conversation:

Lots of text there but...

Thor does have the full Odin force now.

Sentry explicitly has/had resistance to speed force shenanigans, due to his whole "out of sync with time" thing. Soul-ripping him would be a TERRIBLE idea because that brings the Void out directly. MM back kn the day had an edge on Sentry because he was specifically messed up mentally and a superspeed global level telepath would be theoretically able to poke around and figure out a trigger to make Bob somewhat catatonic. A straight up telepathic assault would, like a soul rip, be a terrible plan, because instant Void. The problem here is that a) i don't know if MM still has near light reactions and b) Bob has had about a dozen explicit upgrades since then, many to his mental state as much as his physical.

Finally, Scarlet Witch has been a super high end reality warper for like 20 years now - this isn't some new thing. Likewise, Thor being the allfather is his actual current state, in actual current comics. The current version of him has done some really impressive stuff. It's not a temp power up or anything.

[Sharpandpointies]

Apologies all, my fault. I thought Id had all the pages in sequence but mucked it up.

But hey, at least Lex has wormhole feats now? ^_^

No worries, i've made some...colossal mistakes with feats myself in the past. ^_^

What is even going on at Marvel, how are they writting their normal stories if the give their superheroes cosmical super-version as their current standard?

Marvel is weird with this the same way DC is weird with speed, I figure. They end up with a whole lot of PIS (like DC), or they then exile the character into Do-Nothing Land for the next while until they get nerfed.

[Gaastra]

That's a crossover so it's not canon.

Yes it was. Both marvel and dc did follow ups to the story and have talked about events from it.

She's done no such thing. She talked Galactus down from attacking the planet.

Talk my butt. She beats him easy, takes a photo of her on his knock to the ground body, makes him HER Harald and lets him go later!

[IMG][/IMG]

He got his butt kicked!

[Sharpandpointies]

Yes it was. Both marvel and dc did follow ups to the story and have talked about events from it.

Crossovers are not considered as valid for evidence on Rumbles. See 'What is a canon source?' in the Rules Thread; it talks about crossovers in that section, canon or not.

Talk my butt. She beats him easy, takes a photo of her on his knock to the ground body, makes him HER Harald and lets him go later!

[IMG][/IMG]

He got his butt kicked!

Would that be the 'Squirrel Girl defeats the Marvel Universe' mini or something of that kind?

Because that entire story depended on huge amounts of PIS (please check our rules) for Doreen to win her fights, as well as a whole lot of gimmes and external power-ups, and doesn't make for convincing evidence by Rumbles standards.

Edit: As an example, she beats Magneto by dropping the Thing (don't ask how) on him while stating 'Because your force field is based on magnetic forces, it only works on metal' (so Ben falls on Erik and squooshes him, haha). But this is not how Magneto's force field works at all; it has always blocked all manner of things, including non-metallic objects. So in order to have Squirrel Girl 'win', the writer basically completely disregarded how Magneto's power works.

Otherwise, outside of that story Doreen 'beating' Galactus went pretty much as noted, in Doreen's 'The Unbeatable Squirrel-Girl' series: she talked him down after realizing she could do absolutely nothing to him.