Thoughts on Wonder Woman killing Maxwell Lord

[Zahina]

How do you feel about Wonder Woman killing Maxwell Lord?

Did she do the right thing or it damaged her character as an ambassador and focused too much as a warrior?

[Gaius]

Worst thing to ever happen to the character.

Even more than Daddy Zeus.

- Done entirely for Superman’s and Batman’s benefit. That “friendship” can jump in a well for all I care.
- Ruined one of WW’s great runs and derailed the character in main comics until Rebirth.
- Saddled her with character no one cared about since the 80s as some “great WW villain”
- Pretty much solidified WW being “the one who does what needs to be done/”slay Queen”. Pseudo-mature rubbish.

I refuse to even partake in a “was she right?” debate. It was a poorly written series of contrivances so DC could get their stupid “broken Trinity” concept for that event no one cares about anymore. Had no actual proper buildup to it and like the rest of WW in Infinite Crisis, it only makes sense if that’s the only time in your life you’ve ever read WW.

[Primal Slayer]

The moment itself....I'm here for it.

I think she did the right thing but was treated horribly for it by her peers which wasn't surprising since they rather see more people die before anything happens to an enemy.

[Skytten]

The moment itself....I'm here for it.

I think she did the right thing but was treated horribly for it by her peers which wasn't surprising since they rather see more people die before anything happens to an enemy.

My thoughts exactly.

[Guy_McNichts]

I have mixed feelings on the whole thing.

The act itself doesn't bother me. Although the circumstances that led to Diana killing Max are a bit contrived, I believe that she believed it was her only choice. What was more important was--under Greg Rucka's writing at least--she only did it as a last resort, wasn't happy about it, and was perfectly willing to accept any consequences for her actions.

And I initially liked the fallout. Diana's life pretty much fell apart around her. Her reputation was in shambles, she had to become a fugitive to save Themyscira, her friends were turning their backs on her, the gods abandoned her...her back was against the wall, and it was good drama. I was into it and looking forward to where it would go.

Unfortunately, subsequent writers...named Geoff Johns....flushed all that nuance down the toilet and bungled the payoff in Infinite Crisis. After all the effort Rucka made in establishing her stance on killing, Johns reduced it to: "Diana kills her enemies and will get mad if you tell her not to."
Then he made it where the real problem is she isn't human and doesn't understand humans. So she gets a secret identity and government job, and everything's supposed to be roses.

They clearly wanted a scenario where the Trinity is at odds, but no one is completely right or wrong. The problem is, in execution, it wound up a situation where Diana comes across in the right, while Batman and Superman (mostly Batman) are total dickheads to her.
Which wouldn't be an issue if the pay-off was Clark and Bruce apologizing to her or accepting that, although they don't agree with her decision to kill Max, they shouldn't have treated her like that.

But no.
Either because he's a mediocre writer, or in an effort to make Diana lose the moral high ground (or both), Johns turns her into angry stab-woman, and then the story pivots awkwardly to the "Diana isn't human" bollocks so that she, Clark and Bruce can just smile and forget about the whole thing.

Nowadays, the unfortunate legacy of Max Lord is that he's now the "proof" that Diana is a kill-crazy, bloodthirsty WARRIOR who murders her opponents without hesitation. Now, whenever some nitwit--who's never read a Wonder Woman comic in his life but insists he knows how she's supposed to be--goes off on how Diana is "actually" a hardcore, no mercy, "badass," it's those panels of her snapping Max's neck and/or the infamous "When I deal with them, I deal with them."

That, and we also have to pretend Max is one of Wonder Woman's rogues now. Because there's no other reason he would be one of the villains of Wonder Woman 1984, and I cannot believe Patty Jenkins would've thought of that on her own.
Thanks, Geoff. Never miss an opportunity to screw Wonder Woman over, do you?

Also, and I've banged on about this before, but the whole Max Lord-Brother Eye-Infinite Crisis saga really soured my ability to believe Bruce respects or even genuinely cares about Diana. Her life fell apart, and it really was all his fault. And rather than own up to it or at least apologize, he tells her she's not human so that he can "fix" her with a secret identity and job she never asked for.
Great, Bruce...you not only scum-bagged your so-called good friend, now you're gaslighting her into thinking she was the problem. Clark treated Diana poorly, too, but it was at least implied he felt bad about it.
Combined with Tower of Babel and The Hiketeia...I'm sorry, but Bruce is a terrible friend and an *******.


So, yeah...the act itself doesn't bother me. I rather liked the immediate aftermath of it--as it was written by Greg Rucka. But then Geoff Johns made a big mess of it, leaving a lasting stain we have to endure to this day.

In the grand scheme, they should've just stuck to Rucka's original pitch.

[Dr. Poison]

It certainly wasn't her best moment but I realize that the stakes were high with Lord controlling Superman at the time. That being said, I think there are several other instances that were just as bad if not worse:


1.) Wonder Woman crunching Orion's junk in the New 52.

2.) Wonder Woman killing Ares instead of the First Born in the New 52.

3.) Wonder Woman working at Taco Whiz. If that wasn't character assassination, I don't know what is.

[Ascended]

So, yeah...the act itself doesn't bother me. I rather liked the immediate aftermath of it--as it was written by Greg Rucka. But then Geoff Johns made a big mess of it, leaving a lasting stain we have to endure to this day.

In the grand scheme, they should've just stuck to Rucka's original pitch.

This.

I thought Rucka did a fair job with the task. I think he gave Diana a quality showing in the fight itself, I think he handled the aftermath decently.

Then Johns did Infinite Crisis and the whole thing went down hill from there. Which I think can be said for the entire "broken Trinity" concept. Watching the Trinity break over their own mistakes and disagreements had potential, and there were good ideas in the mix. But Johns somehow managed to avoid every single one, which is an achievement in and of itself.

What always got me is that Diana should've come out looking the best of them all. Batman made a murder machine satellite responsible for assimilating and killing thousands, Clark knew tons of shady things were happening in the hero community and said nothing. What did Diana do? Saved somebody's life. Saved the world, for that matter. Yet she was somehow wrong? In that same continuity Clark had executed three powerless Kryptonian criminals who were trapped in a collapsing pocket dimension. Those people were gonna be erased in like, ten minutes when their reality died, they had no powers, no way to escape, and Clark still killed them "just in case." They're not even the only people Clark had killed at that point in canon either, just the worst example! And he had the gall to condemn Diana for killing Max?

Rucka did write a great fight though, which was really appreciated at the time since it followed so closely to another Clark-Diana battle in For Tomorrow, where Diana had an absolutely horrid showing. Rucka did right by Diana, shame the same can't be said of DC in general, then or now.

[marhawkman]

The moment itself....I'm here for it.

I think she did the right thing but was treated horribly for it by her peers which wasn't surprising since they rather see more people die before anything happens to an enemy.

Yeah the initial fallout made sense, the context.. a bit... railroady, but decent.

It was the way it got used after the actual story that was dumb. Especially the Bat-Lunatic.

[Agent Z]

The fallout of this shows the clear double standard DC has when it comes to their characters. Even if you believe that Diana killing Max was as bad as Bruce creating Brother Eye and Superman covering up the League's mindwiping, Diana was the only one whose transgression was repeatedly thrown in her face beyond this arc. Bruce and Clark's screw ups were pretty much forgotten after Infinite Crisis. It's like DC knew turning Max evil was controversial but rather than admit they'd made a mistake, tried to make audiences hate Diana for killing Max.

[Gaius]

The fallout of this shows the clear double standard DC has when it comes to their characters. Even if you believe that Diana killing Max was as bad as Bruce creating Brother Eye and Superman covering up the League's mindwiping, Diana was the only one whose transgression was repeatedly thrown in her face beyond this arc. Bruce and Clark's screw ups were pretty much forgotten after Infinite Crisis. It's like DC knew turning Max evil was controversial but rather than admit they'd made a mistake, tried to make audiences hate Diana for killing Max.

Yeah, it's kind of irrelevant what one takes on this position given Infinite Crisis (and so DC) taking the position she was wrong and Johns writing her to admit she was wrong in the story.

Still waiting for the Caped Crusader to make up for all those Amazons he got killed.

[HestiasHearth]

Worst thing to ever happen to the character.

Even more than Daddy Zeus.

- Done entirely for Superman’s and Batman’s benefit. That “friendship” can jump in a well for all I care.
- Ruined one of WW’s great runs and derailed the character in main comics until Rebirth.
- Saddled her with character no one cared about since the 80s as some “great WW villain”
- Pretty much solidified WW being “the one who does what needs to be done/”slay Queen”. Pseudo-mature rubbish.

I refuse to even partake in a “was she right?” debate. It was a poorly written series of contrivances so DC could get their stupid “broken Trinity” concept for that event no one cares about anymore. Had no actual proper buildup to it and like the rest of WW in Infinite Crisis, it only makes sense if that’s the only time in your life you’ve ever read WW.

Bravo.
Concur with this 100 %

[WonderScott]

Diana is no more a killer than Superman or Batman at her core. It was ridiculous and out of character. If she believed in killing for countless harm that has been caused to others, Lex Luthor, Joker, Sinestro and others would be dead. You can put all the warrior and fighter motifs and baggage on her all you want, but it’s not who she is at her inception or now. It was dumb to try and differentiate her from Supes and Bats with this “I’ll do what needs to be done” characterization and it was done at her expense for the other two.

Diana may fight, but she fights to subdue and heal and provide other options when she can. They need to get rid of the d@mn sword and shield… she doesn’t need them and they stop her from offering an open hand to people first.

[Agent Z]

Diana is no more a killer than Superman or Batman at her core. It was ridiculous and out of character. If she believed in killing for countless harm that has been caused to others, Lex Luthor, Joker, Sinestro and others would be dead. You can put all the warrior and fighter motifs and baggage on her all you want, but it’s not who she is at her inception or now. It was dumb to try and differentiate her from Supes and Bats with this “I’ll do what needs to be done” characterization and it was done at her expense for the other two.

Diana may fight, but she fights to subdue and heal and provide other options when she can. They need to get rid of the d@mn sword and shield… she doesn’t need them and they stop her from offering an open hand to people first.

It's not like this was the first (or even second) time she'd killed someone.

[Guy_McNichts]

Another thing is the real meat of Sacrifice as a story is the fallout between Diana and the others. Max himself is, frankly, incidental. You could swap him out for pretty much anyone and nothing would change so long as they can control Superman.

So it's real frustrating that we have to pretend Max Lord is a Wonder Woman villain now when there's nothing to explore. Even though Sacrifice might not be in continuity anymore (or maybe it is, who knows?), any time Max shows his face in her neck of the woods, it's always based on this moment. But Diana killing him was completely impersonal. Her getting dragged into the whole thing was impersonal to Max, too.
No one cares about him periodically coming back to go, "Remember when you KILLED me, Diana?! Ooga-booga!"

If anything, Max should be haunting Superman or Batman. Clark had his mind and autonomy violated, and his good friend took the brunt of it. Like I said, he did at least feel a little bad about how he treated Diana. His anger and unresolved guilt is something that could be explored.
"Remember when I made you my attack dog, Superman? And then Wonder Woman sacrificed her reputation to protect yours?"

And, again, the whole thing really was Bruce's fault.
"Remember when Wonder Woman's life was destroyed because of you, Batman? How many Amazons died because of your paranoia?"

But in order for that to have any meaning, they would have to acknowledge that Clark and Bruce mistreated Diana or that they should feel any sort of guilt for the whole thing. And, as others have pointed out, DC's position on it is more or less that Diana was indeed wrong and needs to pay eternal penance for making a difficult decision in a situation Batman put her in.

So, we're stuck with Max...sometimes over rogues more deserving of time and attention. And we have to pretend this is some great rivalry based on a terrible, bad-bad mistake Diana did that she should feel sorry for.

Meanwhile...well, if Tower of Babel didn't do it, surely the Brother Eye debacle taught Bruce a lesson about conjuring plans and A.I. programs designed to torture and humiliate his closest allies. Right?



...or not.

[WonderScott]

It's not like this was the first (or even second) time she'd killed someone.

I understand and disagree with any time she’s killed.