Thoughts on Wonder Woman killing Maxwell Lord

[WonderScott]

Diana is no more a killer than Superman or Batman at her core. It was ridiculous and out of character. If she believed in killing for countless harm that has been caused to others, Lex Luthor, Joker, Sinestro and others would be dead. You can put all the warrior and fighter motifs and baggage on her all you want, but it’s not who she is at her inception or now. It was dumb to try and differentiate her from Supes and Bats with this “I’ll do what needs to be done” characterization and it was done at her expense for the other two.

Diana may fight, but she fights to subdue and heal and provide other options when she can. They need to get rid of the d@mn sword and shield… she doesn’t need them and they stop her from offering an open hand to people first.

[WonderLight789]

I think that due to Dan pooping on Rucka by reneging on the assurances made prior to execution (no pun) made it go down just like Byrne predicted it would. Had Rucka been able to do the fallout and the full discussion it would have been better.
However, it would still continue the departure begun with the Post Crisis revamp. It used to be that WW would be the LAST person to champion taking away someone's tomorrows. "There's always a better way" was her thing AND her kit made it so she really did have options.

Although Post Crisis depowered the Golden Lasso limiting its powers mainly to the domain of Truth, Perez and Berger defined the eff out of said Truth powers and they were the one flaw in Rucka's plot.

The other part that reeks is that neither WWs proclivity for killing nor Batman's paranoia were overcome at the end of IC. The DiDidiot and Johns claimed that Diana needed to be more Human so their Flashpoint and New 52 depowers her and makes her a daughter of Zeus from an imbalanced relationship where No wasn't an option? #MissMe

Did they actually admit they depowered her, and that they felt her powewr level was the problem? Then it is about time they depower superman too.

OT: It goes to show that batman and superman are hypocrites. They rather let countless innocent people die, instead of killing one villain in a context where there was no other option? WOW, they are such good people.

[Agent Z]

Diana is no more a killer than Superman or Batman at her core. It was ridiculous and out of character. If she believed in killing for countless harm that has been caused to others, Lex Luthor, Joker, Sinestro and others would be dead. You can put all the warrior and fighter motifs and baggage on her all you want, but it’s not who she is at her inception or now. It was dumb to try and differentiate her from Supes and Bats with this “I’ll do what needs to be done” characterization and it was done at her expense for the other two.

Diana may fight, but she fights to subdue and heal and provide other options when she can. They need to get rid of the d@mn sword and shield… she doesn’t need them and they stop her from offering an open hand to people first.

It's not like this was the first (or even second) time she'd killed someone.

[Guy_McNichts]

Another thing is the real meat of Sacrifice as a story is the fallout between Diana and the others. Max himself is, frankly, incidental. You could swap him out for pretty much anyone and nothing would change so long as they can control Superman.

So it's real frustrating that we have to pretend Max Lord is a Wonder Woman villain now when there's nothing to explore. Even though Sacrifice might not be in continuity anymore (or maybe it is, who knows?), any time Max shows his face in her neck of the woods, it's always based on this moment. But Diana killing him was completely impersonal. Her getting dragged into the whole thing was impersonal to Max, too.
No one cares about him periodically coming back to go, "Remember when you KILLED me, Diana?! Ooga-booga!"

If anything, Max should be haunting Superman or Batman. Clark had his mind and autonomy violated, and his good friend took the brunt of it. Like I said, he did at least feel a little bad about how he treated Diana. His anger and unresolved guilt is something that could be explored.
"Remember when I made you my attack dog, Superman? And then Wonder Woman sacrificed her reputation to protect yours?"

And, again, the whole thing really was Bruce's fault.
"Remember when Wonder Woman's life was destroyed because of you, Batman? How many Amazons died because of your paranoia?"

But in order for that to have any meaning, they would have to acknowledge that Clark and Bruce mistreated Diana or that they should feel any sort of guilt for the whole thing. And, as others have pointed out, DC's position on it is more or less that Diana was indeed wrong and needs to pay eternal penance for making a difficult decision in a situation Batman put her in.

So, we're stuck with Max...sometimes over rogues more deserving of time and attention. And we have to pretend this is some great rivalry based on a terrible, bad-bad mistake Diana did that she should feel sorry for.

Meanwhile...well, if Tower of Babel didn't do it, surely the Brother Eye debacle taught Bruce a lesson about conjuring plans and A.I. programs designed to torture and humiliate his closest allies. Right?



...or not.

[bat22]

I don't even think about the Max Lord killing. Far as I'm concerned, Diana didn't kill Max because DC killed his character well in advance.

[marhawkman]

Diana is no more a killer than Superman or Batman at her core. It was ridiculous and out of character. If she believed in killing for countless harm that has been caused to others, Lex Luthor, Joker, Sinestro and others would be dead. You can put all the warrior and fighter motifs and baggage on her all you want, but it’s not who she is at her inception or now. It was dumb to try and differentiate her from Supes and Bats with this “I’ll do what needs to be done” characterization and it was done at her expense for the other two.

Diana may fight, but she fights to subdue and heal and provide other options when she can. They need to get rid of the d@mn sword and shield… she doesn’t need them and they stop her from offering an open hand to people first.

well int he case of Max lord... he literally told her he had no interest in taking her offer of peace and told her he'd rather die.

[Perseus]

OT: It goes to show that batman and superman are hypocrites. They rather let countless innocent people die, instead of killing one villain in a context where there was no other option? WOW, they are such good people.

Kind of my feelings on this too.

I don't mind Diana killing if the situation absoultly calls for it. So, the act itself I understood her reasonings and felt it was justified honestly. But, like other stated it was the handling afterwards that annoys me. Diana doesn't really get to defend herself from the glares and scoffs of Bruce and Clark. She just takes it, she gets all the crap and doesn't even really stand up for herself because DC needs to make sure that she was in the wrong, which she wasn't to me, that feels more out of character to me than her doing the frankly necessary thing.

well int he case of Max lord... he literally told her he had no interest in taking her offer of peace and told her he'd rather die.

Exactly, I really don't like it when characters know damn well that monsters will just break out and harm more people or even continue to harm while incarcerated and just... let them.

I'm always for Diana going for rehabilitation and even imprisonment as a first option and giving second and third chances. However, some beings are just monsters, and some of those monsters need to die. Not everyone can or even wants to change. And I think people forget that it's not really up to the hero to do that, it takes away from the villain's responsibility as well. That isn't a facade of maturity, that's unfortunately reality for some people. Obviously, everything depends heavily on the circumstances of the narrative.

Unfortunately, not every writer is talented enough to be that nuanced and so Diana got saddled with the "when I deal with my villains, I DEAL with them" treatment. No nuance, no strenuous circumstances, no strong thematic resonance that parallels real atrocities, just angry, barbarian, sword happy, warrior woman who delights in violence for the fun of it.

[Dr. Poison]

What else did you want her to do? She'd tried telling him to stop and it didn't work. You seem more upset with Diana than the guy who was harassing her.



We're talking about a villain who ragdolled Orion, Diana and Ares, survived getting stabbed through the abdomen like it was nothing and later survived being ground zero when Apollo blew himself up.



What was out of character? She didn't have money and needed a job. This doesn't even make the 100 weirdest things DC has made Diana do.

1.) I am more upset with Diana because she's better than that. She sunk to Orion's level to deal with him and given the fact that crunching his junk & also threatening to castrate him didn't stop him, it was clearly done for shock value. If I was Diana, I would have laid him out flat, tossed him in a Boom Tube, and sent him home to New Genesis and then called Superman or Shazam to take his place.

2.) Diana could have gotten Ares away from the fight by flying him to a different location. After all, Diana was able to defeat the First Born by tricking him into falling into a pit. He couldn't fly out of it so he couldn't' fly after Ares to finish killing him.

3.) Come on, she had never worked at a fast food restaurant before this or even after this. It was done to be campy and it just seemed weird.....

[hareluyafan1]

3.) Wonder Woman working at Taco Whiz. If that wasn't character assassination, I don't know what is.

Beg your pardon but how is that in any way "character assassination?" That was an excellent character-building moment for WW. It shows she's humble and doesn't think of herself as 'better' than regular people. She's like Sara Crewe in "Princess Sara."

The "character assassination" is stuff like the "Justice League" cartoon that depicts her as a snooty cow. Bruce Timm even admitted that the basis of her entire character in that show was "she's a princess," which in his mind apparently meant she had to be a stuck-up snob.

[Stanlos]

Did they actually admit they depowered her, and that they felt her powewr level was the problem? Then it is about time they depower superman too.

OT: It goes to show that batman and superman are hypocrites. They rather let countless innocent people die, instead of killing one villain in a context where there was no other option? WOW, they are such good people.

The depowering has not been addressed openly to me or in any exchanges to which I was party or privy. Only the depictions of the books indicated this. Both Supes and WW were greatly diminished in N52 but some fans didn’t seem to notice. In fact, a number of them thought the opposite. But if you are a bean counter and have been following their abilities it is obvious upon inspection of actuals.

[Gaius]

Another thing is the real meat of Sacrifice as a story is the fallout between Diana and the others. Max himself is, frankly, incidental. You could swap him out for pretty much anyone and nothing would change so long as they can control Superman.

So it's real frustrating that we have to pretend Max Lord is a Wonder Woman villain now when there's nothing to explore. Even though Sacrifice might not be in continuity anymore (or maybe it is, who knows?), any time Max shows his face in her neck of the woods, it's always based on this moment. But Diana killing him was completely impersonal. Her getting dragged into the whole thing was impersonal to Max, too.
No one cares about him periodically coming back to go, "Remember when you KILLED me, Diana?! Ooga-booga!"

If anything, Max should be haunting Superman or Batman. Clark had his mind and autonomy violated, and his good friend took the brunt of it. Like I said, he did at least feel a little bad about how he treated Diana. His anger and unresolved guilt is something that could be explored.
"Remember when I made you my attack dog, Superman? And then Wonder Woman sacrificed her reputation to protect yours?"

And, again, the whole thing really was Bruce's fault.
"Remember when Wonder Woman's life was destroyed because of you, Batman? How many Amazons died because of your paranoia?"

But in order for that to have any meaning, they would have to acknowledge that Clark and Bruce mistreated Diana or that they should feel any sort of guilt for the whole thing. And, as others have pointed out, DC's position on it is more or less that Diana was indeed wrong and needs to pay eternal penance for making a difficult decision in a situation Batman put her in.

So, we're stuck with Max...sometimes over rogues more deserving of time and attention. And we have to pretend this is some great rivalry based on a terrible, bad-bad mistake Diana did that she should feel sorry for.

Meanwhile...well, if Tower of Babel didn't do it, surely the Brother Eye debacle taught Bruce a lesson about conjuring plans and A.I. programs designed to torture and humiliate his closest allies. Right?



...or not.

Yeah, that's the thing everyone who tries to backwards justify Lord as this great WW villain forgets. To paraphrase Batman's stupid mic drop moment; "Last time anyone cared about Max Lord was when he died".

The only thing interesting about him was getting his neck snapped and having Clark and Bruce happily ruin Diana's life. Multiple reboots later and a Diana who may or may not have killed, he's alive, and that's still all he has going for him.

[Dr. Poison]

Beg your pardon but how is that in any way "character assassination?" That was an excellent character-building moment for WW. It shows she's humble and doesn't think of herself as 'better' than regular people. She's like Sara Crewe in "Princess Sara."

The "character assassination" is stuff like the "Justice League" cartoon that depicts her as a snooty cow. Bruce Timm even admitted that the basis of her entire character in that show was "she's a princess," which in his mind apparently meant she had to be a stuck-up snob.

It was just a very odd choice for Diana given that she had never worked at a fast food restaurant before or even after that. It's like if Bruce Wayne suddenly became a gastroenterologist or Clark Kent became a ballet dancer for an issue or two.

[BiteTheBullet]

Did they actually admit they depowered her, and that they felt her powewr level was the problem? Then it is about time they depower superman too.

OT: It goes to show that batman and superman are hypocrites. They rather let countless innocent people die, instead of killing one villain in a context where there was no other option? WOW, they are such good people.

Too late on the Superman front. They recently gave him a power upgrade in their 'soft' reboot with issue 1050 (I think that is the number). I believe he should be close to juggling planets again.

[WonderScott]

It's not like this was the first (or even second) time she'd killed someone.

I understand and disagree with any time she’s killed.

[WonderScott]

well int he case of Max lord... he literally told her he had no interest in taking her offer of peace and told her he'd rather die.

I get it, but I still think Diana would find another way. As a character she’s a “yes, and” and not “either/or.” But, that’s just my take on who she is and how she operates.