Thoughts on Wonder Woman killing Maxwell Lord

[WonderLight789]

Kind of my feelings on this too.

I don't mind Diana killing if the situation absoultly calls for it. So, the act itself I understood her reasonings and felt it was justified honestly. But, like other stated it was the handling afterwards that annoys me. Diana doesn't really get to defend herself from the glares and scoffs of Bruce and Clark. She just takes it, she gets all the crap and doesn't even really stand up for herself because DC needs to make sure that she was in the wrong, which she wasn't to me, that feels more out of character to me than her doing the frankly necessary thing.



Exactly, I really don't like it when characters know damn well that monsters will just break out and harm more people or even continue to harm while incarcerated and just... let them.

I'm always for Diana going for rehabilitation and even imprisonment as a first option and giving second and third chances. However, some beings are just monsters, and some of those monsters need to die. Not everyone can or even wants to change. And I think people forget that it's not really up to the hero to do that, it takes away from the villain's responsibility as well. That isn't a facade of maturity, that's unfortunately reality for some people. Obviously, everything depends heavily on the circumstances of the narrative.

Unfortunately, not every writer is talented enough to be that nuanced and so Diana got saddled with the "when I deal with my villains, I DEAL with them" treatment. No nuance, no strenuous circumstances, no strong thematic resonance that parallels real atrocities, just angry, barbarian, sword happy, warrior woman who delights in violence for the fun of it.

It is what happens when DC wants their 2 golden boys to always look pure, and to be ''right'' all the time. They end up looking like hypocrites. So in my book, that wgole event just makes them look bad, not Diana. And anybody that isn't bias and read the whole thing, could notice that.

[marhawkman]

I get it, but I still think Diana would find another way. As a character she’s a “yes, and” and not “either/or.” But, that’s just my take on who she is and how she operates.

I get that she would definitely WANt to... would she be able to find another way fast enough though?

[Anodyne]

3.) Wonder Woman working at Taco Whiz. If that wasn't character assassination, I don't know what is.

I was a little embarrassed by that, but I liked Diana's attitude: There's nothing wrong with feeding people.

Re Max Lord: I don't want to say killing someone is good, but it's sometimes better than the alternative. How many people will die while you're seeking another way?

[hareluyafan1]

It was just a very odd choice for Diana given that she had never worked at a fast food restaurant before or even after that.

Again, how is that "character assassination?" Diana didn't complain about working at a fast food restaurant, didn't act like it was beneath her, didn't consider it demeaning etc. She was humble.

An odd creative choice perhaps, but I really don't see where you're getting the idea that it was "character assassination" when it was an admirable show of character.

It's like if Bruce Wayne suddenly became a gastroenterologist or Clark Kent became a ballet dancer for an issue or two.

Again, how would that be "character assassination?" If Bruce or Clark were humble about it and did not view becoming a gastroenterologist or ballet dancer as beneath them then that would be a good display of character.

I liked Dians's attitude: There's nothing wrong with feeding people.

Exactly.

[bardkeep]

I don't hate the fact that Diana killed Max Lord, but I absolutely hate the ripple effect it had and wish it had never happened. It wound up being used to demonize Diana and broadly popularized the "ruthless warrior woman" interpretation that I think wound up leading to n52. The only good that came from it was the excellent arc in Marc Andreyko's Manhunter series where Diana hires Kate as her lawyer.

Taco Whiz, on the other hand? Absolutely rules. The in-universe justification for it was absolute nonsense and it was very silly but I love that Diana approached it in the most Diana way imaginable. Not at all understanding what's undignified about feeding people, delighting in the opportunity to serve people who couldn't afford anything else, treating her working class coworkers with as much respect as she would any world leader...that's Wonder Woman right there. The opposite of character assassination if you ask me.

Also this panel will always make me laugh:

[Agent Z]

I don't hate the fact that Diana killed Max Lord, but I absolutely hate the ripple effect it had and wish it had never happened. It wound up being used to demonize Diana and broadly popularized the "ruthless warrior woman" interpretation that I think wound up leading to n52. The only good that came from it was the excellent arc in Marc Andreyko's Manhunter series where Diana hires Kate as her lawyer.

Taco Whiz, on the other hand? Absolutely rules. The in-universe justification for it was absolute nonsense and it was very silly but I love that Diana approached it in the most Diana way imaginable. Not at all understanding what's undignified about feeding people, delighting in the opportunity to serve people who couldn't afford anything else, treating her working class coworkers with as much respect as she would any world leader...that's Wonder Woman right there. The opposite of character assassination if you ask me.

Also this panel will always make me laugh:

While I don't think Johns's writing in Infinite Crisis helped, I'd say the blame for this view of Wonder Woman should mainly go to Kingdom Come. At least with Infinite Crisis, it was mitigated by Rucka and Andreyko's writing.

[Primal Slayer]

While I don't think Johns's writing in Infinite Crisis helped, I'd say the blame for this view of Wonder Woman should mainly go to Kingdom Come. At least with Infinite Crisis, it was mitigated by Rucka and Andreyko's writing.

Kingdom Come came out in 1996. It has absolutely no impact on her after that. She didn't become more warrior woman for another 15 years.

[hareluyafan1]

I don't hate the fact that Diana killed Max Lord, but I absolutely hate the ripple effect it had and wish it had never happened. It wound up being used to demonize Diana and broadly popularized the "ruthless warrior woman" interpretation that I think wound up leading to n52. The only good that came from it was the excellent arc in Marc Andreyko's Manhunter series where Diana hires Kate as her lawyer.

Taco Whiz, on the other hand? Absolutely rules. The in-universe justification for it was absolute nonsense and it was very silly but I love that Diana approached it in the most Diana way imaginable. Not at all understanding what's undignified about feeding people, delighting in the opportunity to serve people who couldn't afford anything else, treating her working class coworkers with as much respect as she would any world leader...that's Wonder Woman right there. The opposite of character assassination if you ask me.

Also this panel will always make me laugh:

Exactly.

Kingdom Come came out in 1996. It has absolutely no impact on her after that. She didn't become more warrior woman for another 15 years.

Plus even then, in Kingdom Come it was specifically explained why Diana was behaving that way, and it was pointed out that she wasn't acting like herself. Her entire arc was about realizing she had lost her way and needed to rediscover herself.

[Agent Z]

Kingdom Come came out in 1996. It has absolutely no impact on her after that. She didn't become more warrior woman for another 15 years.

She didn't become more warrior woman after Infinite Crisis either until the New 52.

The main source of contention here is that in Infinite Crisis and subsequent pre-Flashpoint stories, Diana becoming a murderous savage is pretty much an informed flaw. It was Kingdom Come and the New 52 Justice League that really ran with the interpretation that she was less moral and stable than other heroes because she didn't have a rule against killing.

[hareluyafan1]

She didn't become more warrior woman after Infinite Crisis either until the New 52.

Sorry for going slightly off-topic, but does anyone else hate the blatant misuse of the word "warrior" when it comes to WW?

By definition a "warrior" is someone who fights. It does not automatically make one bloodthirsty or ruthless. There are tons of warriors in fiction who actually dislike fighting and do so only out of a sense of duty. Yet somehow Diana being a warrior means she has to be a ruthless savage who enjoys killing.

One thing that ticks me off is the scene in Justice League: War and the comic it was adapted from where she threatens an innocent man by pointing a sword at him. Naturally people respond with "she's a warrior" as if that makes it okay. Heck, a "warrior" should know that you never point a weapon at someone unless you're willing to kill them. Weapons are not toys and should be treated lightly.

[Gaius]

Kingdom Come came out in 1996. It has absolutely no impact on her after that. She didn't become more warrior woman for another 15 years.

Plus even then, in Kingdom Come it was specifically explained why Diana was behaving that way, and it was pointed out that she wasn't acting like herself. Her entire arc was about realizing she had lost her way and needed to rediscover herself.

I mean, it did.

It's kind of irrelevant what the point of what WW's role in story was since in regards to this discussion since KC's status as an evergreen book that will probably be one of the only comics most casuals, or the one major book where WW has a decent role most writers, will read has indeed had an effect on how people and writers and see Wonder Woman.

DKR as a story is quite clearly a cautionary tale of what could happen to Batman and Superman in a dark future but quite clearly had a direct influence on how people wrote "normal" Superman and Batman form there on out. Same is true for KC when it comes WW.

[Primal Slayer]

One Elseworlds story from 1996 is not to blame for how she turned out 15 years after the fact. She spent all her time inbetween being written differently from KC

[Perseus]

sorry for going slightly off-topic, but does anyone else hate the blatant misuse of the word "warrior" when it comes to ww?

By definition a "warrior" is someone who fights. It does not automatically make one bloodthirsty or ruthless. There are tons of warriors in fiction who actually dislike fighting and do so only out of a sense of duty. Yet somehow diana being a warrior means she has to be a ruthless savage who enjoys killing.

One thing that ticks me off is the scene in justice league: War and the comic it was adapted from where she threatens an innocent man by pointing a sword at him. Naturally people respond with "she's a warrior" as if that makes it okay. Heck, a "warrior" should know that you never point a weapon at someone unless you're willing to kill them. Weapons are not toys and should be treated lightly.

preach this sh*t!!!

[DisneyBoy]

I'm really sick of Maxwell Lord being linked to Wonder Woman. Or rather, her being saddled with him and executing him.

It was a story beat that felt wedged into the Wonder Woman book, and the ramifications are still on-going. Why? Max isn't interesting, doesn't really have much of a gimmick and isn't even a "Wonder Woman" character.

She's killed before and with far less of a hooplah made about it. The whole thing boggles my mind. It's like someone somewhere decided Max was super duper cool and had to be a big deal. And now he never goes away.

Sick of him.

[John Venus]

In the end it doesn't matter how nuanced the writing is; a lesser writer will always screw it up somehow.

Case in point: Sacrifice itself.

Rucka & everyone else: Wonder Woman only killed under specific circumstances in which she had no choice but to do it.

Johns & Didio: z0mg WoDeR wOmAN l1keS t0 kILLs peepul