Thoughts on Wonder Woman killing Maxwell Lord

[Shimbo]

3.) Wonder Woman working at Taco Whiz. If that wasn't character assassination, I don't know what is.

Agree to disagree. While definitely a strange choice, William Messner-Loebs did great character work with Diana using that plot point. Good stuff imo.

[WonderScott]

I get that she would definitely WANt to... would she be able to find another way fast enough though?

She’s Wonder Woman, so to me, yes.

[kingaliencracker]

I'm of the belief that heroes NOT killing is contrived itself, so I'm probably in the minority in not thinking Wonder Woman killing Max was a big deal.

It's funny to me the double standard that exists with DC heroes that doesn't exist with Marvel heroes. Marvel heroes kill all the time and no one bats an eye.

[hareluyafan1]

I'm of the belief that heroes NOT killing is contrived itself, so I'm probably in the minority in not thinking Wonder Woman killing Max was a big deal.

Not really. Most of the people here have said they were fine with the story as it was originally presented (i.e. WW made a difficult choice when she had no other option, regretted that it was necessary and was willing to face the consequences). The problem lies with what happened afterwards with Geoff Johns mishandling.

It's funny to me the double standard that exists with DC heroes that doesn't exist with Marvel heroes. Marvel heroes kill all the time and no one bats an eye.

Linkara (Atop the 4th Wall) explained it best. It's not double standards, it's just that Marvel and DC for most of their existence have had different philosophies. Traditionally DC heroes mostly are aspirational (the kind you want to emulate even if you could never be as good as they are) while Marvel heroes are generally more relatable (i.e. still good but more willing to make compromises).

Watch here. He explains it in the first minute-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxXfiqMKLOY

[Agent Z]

Not really. Most of the people here have said they were fine with the story as it was originally presented (i.e. WW made a difficult choice when she had no other option, regretted that it was necessary and was willing to face the consequences). The problem lies with what happened afterwards with Geoff Johns mishandling.



Linkara (Atop the 4th Wall) explained it best. It's not double standards, it's just that Marvel and DC for most of their existence have had different philosophies. Traditionally DC heroes mostly are aspirational (the kind you want to emulate even if you could never be as good as they are) while Marvel heroes are generally more relatable (i.e. still good but more willing to make compromises).

Watch here. He explains it in the first minute-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxXfiqMKLOY

That hasn't been true in decades, if it was ever true at all. People are clearly talking about the Big 7 when they say this (and even then it isn't totally accurate). Wally West, Kyle Rayner, John Constantine, Booster Gold, Ted Kord, Oliver Queen, Helena Bertinelli, just about all the Teen Titans don't fit this description. And this argument often ignores that DC and Marvel have shared staff across decades and often take inspiration from each other's ideas.

[DochaDocha]

The legacy and aftermath was far worse than the event itself. The worst thing that happened was that a WW movie was wasted on Maxwell Lord and that movie helped bury the franchise. It's only five and a half years since the first movie was a hit and already we have an uncertain future for the big screen.

[PopQuezy]

The legacy and aftermath was far worse than the event itself. The worst thing that happened was that a WW movie was wasted on Maxwell Lord and that movie helped bury the franchise. It's only five and a half years since the first movie was a hit and already we have an uncertain future for the big screen.

That seems to have more to do with the current financial instability of Warner Brothers and the failure of the Snyderverse and its exertions like Black Adam.

[DochaDocha]

That seems to have more to do with the current financial instability of Warner Brothers and the failure of the Snyderverse and its exertions like Black Adam.

To be fair, yes, WB's financials and many other factors come into play. And to be all honest, killing Maxwell Lord isn't the reason the second movie was bad (and obviously WW didn't kill ML in the movie...). Basically, what I'm saying is killing Lord led him to being attached to WW, which opened him to consideration for a movie, and in the end he was a bad choice for a primary movie villain. That contributed to the movie's lack of success (there are also a lot of factors here, not the least of which COVID), and the movie's lack of success made it a lot easier to reboot the character.

In short, that $#!) trickled down somehow.

[Gaius]

I'm of the belief that heroes NOT killing is contrived itself, so I'm probably in the minority in not thinking Wonder Woman killing Max was a big deal.

It's funny to me the double standard that exists with DC heroes that doesn't exist with Marvel heroes. Marvel heroes kill all the time and no one bats an eye.

My opinions on if Diana should kill are fairly separate from this event. In fact, I'm fine with her killing when the situation calls for it as was done in other runs I liked like Perez or Rucka's. In regards to this instance, it's a poorly written story where getting into a debate on "was she right?" give this it far more merit and legitimacy that it deserves. DC wanted an "OMG" moment for the buildup to their stupid event and they got one.

There's no debate as far DC's concerned given they had her admit she was wrong in IC and then continue to pull that nonsense with Diana being some barely civilized barbarian who has to be reigned in by Superman and Batman.

As others have said, my hatred for this story are entirely around that it's a poorly written story that's been elevated to some great "iconic" moment that dragged Diana through the mud both in-universe and by DC editorial, ruined and derailed all the more interesting developments doing on in Rucka's run at the time, shackled the most boring character in comics (Max Lord) to Wonder Woman's world like an unwanted summer tic.

[Celgress]

I'm okay with it. She had no choice. The only time I approve of heroes killing is when there is no other viable way to protect people. A compromised Superman could have hurt a lot of innocent people before Max's influence was broken if it could have been broken.

[Agent Z]

That seems to have more to do with the current financial instability of Warner Brothers and the failure of the Snyderverse and its exertions like Black Adam.

The Snyderverse has not been a thing for the majority of the DCEU's existence, so that excuse doesn't work. Snyder didn't direct Black Adam and frankly it's failure can't be blamed on being connected to him when no one even knew Cavill was making an appearance. WW1984 got a bad reception from people who didn't like Snyder's work.

[BiteTheBullet]

The Snyderverse has not been a thing for the majority of the DCEU's existence, so that excuse doesn't work. Snyder didn't direct Black Adam and frankly it's failure can't be blamed on being connected to him when no one even knew Cavill was making an appearance. WW1984 got a bad reception from people who didn't like Snyder's work.

I have had no problem with Synder and his direction for the most part, but WW1984 was just bad period! Whether you liked Synder or not, that movie was just awful and hurt her good showings prior to the movie (except for the curb stomping she and the other 'Superbuddies' got at the hand of Superman in JL).

[Agent Z]

There's another factor to why killing Max was controversial that isn't talked about often, though I can see why given the elephant in the room it addresses.



"Medousa had snakes for hair, it was easy to see she was a monster. But Max? Max looked like everyone else..."

[marhawkman]

Oh, yeah, DC comics totally uses Hollywood "scary face" logic for showing off whether a character is good or evil. Max... didn't have that. he looked like an ordinary guy.

So, him as the big-bad in a story broke with the basic tropes of the medium, and made people as real questions about morality, in a stage that uses ersatz imitation morality.

[PopQuezy]

The Snyderverse has not been a thing for the majority of the DCEU's existence, so that excuse doesn't work. Snyder didn't direct Black Adam and frankly it's failure can't be blamed on being connected to him when no one even knew Cavill was making an appearance. WW1984 got a bad reception from people who didn't like Snyder's work.

I'm not certain what you think I'm excusing. Man of Steel was released in 2013 and Snyder's Justice League was released in 2021 and the DCEU, as is, is seemingly going to end in 2023. That seems like the majority of the DCEU's existence to me. Also, I never said Snyder directed Black Adam. I said it was an extension of the Snyderverse, which it is. Whether Cavill was in it or not, Waller and the woman from Peacemaker were in it, which are also extensions from the Snyderverse.

Anyway, that wasnt' even my point, and the original commenter seemed to get my point. The seeming reboot of the DCU is because of a variety of factors: WB's financial instability, ATT's mishandling of WB, the Snyderverse and its extensions failing to connect with the larger audience, the streaming wars not being as profitable as first believed, etc. My comment was not an attack on Snyder, so I'm not certain how you interpreted as such.