5G and what was to have been

[skyvolt2000]

I would argue that even the success of Wally West is now in question..... with sales of the Flash out of the top 100 since at least October.

1) Where is the promotion for the book?

2) How fans in general has DC chased off along with the constant questions about WHO is in charge?

3) Maybe it is more of none of the derailments that got everyone else have not hit Nightwing. And yes we saw other Nightwings in the book but none were trying to take over while Dick was still trying to figure out who he was.

4) Top 100? WHO CARES? How many books are pulling their same numbers or near it and getting PUSHED down by nonstop event mess? Along with certain variants boosting a title here and there and along with new books coming out.
Not being in the top 100 does not mean it's a horrible book no matter how many folks want to scream that as a battel cry to get writers fire or keeping books NOT starring straight white males from being made.

[Vordan]

Didio planning to pit Bruce and Clark against Luke and Jon is the real head scratcher. Luke becoming Batman alone would have been controversial, in no world was the general fanbase ever going to side with Luke over DC’s most popular character. Given how hard DC relies on Batman to fund the rest of the line I think 5G would have failed simply because Bruce is the only real moneymaker. Killing him off or diminishing him was never going to work long term.

As for Clark well he was fucked but that’s to be expected. In 5G he would have caused the JL to collapse and ultimately gotten both himself and Bruce killed. Fraction writing Jon’s book would have been amazing but the anger over Clark’s fate might have completely overshadowed that. We got the good Clark books we would have gotten in 5G anyway so I think Superman came out ahead, poor Jon instead is the one who is in the pits.

Edit:
Here’s the big caveat - Didio is all about synergy. 5G was put together when the plan for the films was that Clark would have been erased in favor of Sasha Supergirl and Bruce would have been replaced with Barbara Gordon and Terry McGuiness. In that light doing a big switch over to legacies makes sense. But what would have happened if Didio had stayed on and Gunn had still taken over? Where would things have gone now that Gunn is set to kick off a brand new cinematic universe with young versions of the classics? I think 5G would have been scrapped anyway and Didio would have done a New 52 again. So 5G was never going to last.

[Frontier]

Didio planning to pit Bruce and Clark against Luke and Jon is the real head scratcher. Luke becoming Batman alone would have been controversial, in no world was the general fanbase ever going to side with Luke over DC’s most popular character. Given how hard DC relies on Batman to fund the rest of the line I think 5G would have failed simply because Bruce is the only real moneymaker. Killing him off or diminishing him was never going to work long term.

As for Clark well he was fucked but that’s to be expected. In 5G he would have caused the JL to collapse and ultimately gotten both himself and Bruce killed. Fraction writing Jon’s book would have been amazing but the anger over Clark’s fate might have completely overshadowed that. We got the good Clark books we would have gotten in 5G anyway so I think Superman came out ahead, poor Jon instead is the one who is in the pits.

Edit:
Here’s the big caveat - Didio is all about synergy. 5G was put together when the plan for the films was that Clark would have been erased in favor of Sasha Supergirl and Bruce would have been replaced with Barbara Gordon and Terry McGuiness. In that light doing a big switch over to legacies makes sense. But what would have happened if Didio had stayed on and Gunn had still taken over? Where would things have gone now that Gunn is set to kick off a brand new cinematic universe with young versions of the classics? I think 5G would have been scrapped anyway and Didio would have done a New 52 again. So 5G was never going to last.

I don't really see how they could have spun that "Superman tries to make everybody do away with secret identities and ends up destroying the Justice League" in a way that makes sense.

[OBrianTallent]

I don't really see how they could have spun that "Superman tries to make everybody do away with secret identities and ends up destroying the Justice League" in a way that makes sense.

There was nothing about this that would have made sense in any way shape or form. You just simply can not turn Bruce Wayne into the villain, you can not turn Superman into the villain. Didio truly did want to turn the entirety of DC comics into his own warped vision. He had gone on record as saying heroes can not be happy, can not be married...

Someone above stated that they thought this was just a job to him...it was. He came from animation, it's been a long time (very long) but I remember reading an interview with him shortly after he came to DC where he talked about his lack of knowledge of the medium. I was very confused then as to why they would hire him as a writer. (He took over Superboy's series with Jimmy Palmiotti at the end of the series that took Kon into a very different direction and made the book ridiculous.) I was even more perplexed when he was promoted.

[godisawesome]

There was nothing about this that would have made sense in any way shape or form. You just simply can not turn Bruce Wayne into the villain, you can not turn Superman into the villain. Didio truly did want to turn the entirety of DC comics into his own warped vision. He had gone on record as saying heroes can not be happy, can not be married...

Someone above stated that they thought this was just a job to him...it was. He came from animation, it's been a long time (very long) but I remember reading an interview with him shortly after he came to DC where he talked about his lack of knowledge of the medium. I was very confused then as to why they would hire him as a writer. (He took over Superboy's series with Jimmy Palmiotti at the end of the series that took Kon into a very different direction and made the book ridiculous.) I was even more perplexed when he was promoted.

He’s also the guy who even in animation has a confusing and frustrating history - while he was a major figure in Beast Wars’s 3rd season, which was a continuity- and characterization-heavy finale to the show, when he was given the job of doing Beast Machines, he tried ordering the writers to ignore continuity and characterization at first, then oversaw a still continuity-heavy opening to the show that still had a wildly out-of character portrayal of the cast, and thus arguably the worst of both worlds.

I would argue that the success of both Beast Wars Season 3 and of some parts of his time at DC point towards genuine administrative and recruiting skills on his part that sadly are paired with an inability to understand his audience and too much unearned confidence in his own storytelling abilities… and at DC, we simply saw the latter overwhelm the former as time went on.

[DABellWrites]

I would argue that even the success of Wally West is now in question..... with sales of the Flash out of the top 100 since at least October.

(One could argue that they do have a good writer, and they did next to nothing in promoting the return of Wally West on the title....but nevertheless from my perspective.... DC's cut the Flash fanbase down the middle, with a whole new generation of Barry Allen fans from the tv show and comic, who just want to read Barry Allen, and not the other guy.

( I confess I lean to Barry now, and as a result, despite the good writing....I just lost interest in the Flash)

The most successful legacy character of them all is, Nightwing. Why?

He's not running around as Batman number 2. He has his own identity and costume, and no other Nightwing competitors to disrupt his fanbase. Not surprisingly, he sells better than Superman these days.

How much of Nightwing's success comes from being apart of Batman's franchise then it does on his own?

[Refrax5]

1) Where is the promotion for the book?

2) How fans in general has DC chased off along with the constant questions about WHO is in charge?

3) Maybe it is more of none of the derailments that got everyone else have not hit Nightwing. And yes we saw other Nightwings in the book but none were trying to take over while Dick was still trying to figure out who he was.

4) Top 100? WHO CARES? How many books are pulling their same numbers or near it and getting PUSHED down by nonstop event mess? Along with certain variants boosting a title here and there and along with new books coming out.
Not being in the top 100 does not mean it's a horrible book no matter how many folks want to scream that as a battel cry to get writers fire or keeping books NOT starring straight white males from being made.

The dude literally said it has a good writer and Wally is very much a straight white male. Chill out for once with the constant ranting and race-baiting.

[Bruce Wayne]

He came from animation, it's been a long time (very long) but I remember reading an interview with him shortly after he came to DC where he talked about his lack of knowledge of the medium. I was very confused then as to why they would hire him as a writer. (He took over Superboy's series with Jimmy Palmiotti at the end of the series that took Kon into a very different direction and made the book ridiculous.) I was even more perplexed when he was promoted.

He was basically parachuted in by someone high up at WB to run DC (https://bleedingcool.com/comics/supe...ddie-berganza/) over Levitz's choces like Loeb and Waid. The writing on Superboy and later editorial stuff was basically to groom and prep him for taking over DC.

Also it should be noted he is a fan. The sheer OCD over Barry/Nighwing/Batgirl imo is only something that a fanboy would care about. Ditto for pushing obscure stuff like Metal Men and OMAC and Forever People. The guy cleary cares. He is just not a fan of the post-Crisis era like a lot of us. Also he and Jimmy Palmiotti were friends growing up and supposedly one of the perks of being friends with long term Palmiotti was he got free comics off him. So he is definitely a fan.

[OBrianTallent]

He was basically parachuted in by someone high up at WB to run DC (https://bleedingcool.com/comics/supe...ddie-berganza/) over Levitz's choces like Loeb and Waid. The writing on Superboy and later editorial stuff was basically to groom and prep him for taking over DC.

Also it should be noted he is a fan. The sheer OCD over Barry/Nighwing/Batgirl imo is only something that a fanboy would care about. Ditto for pushing obscure stuff like Metal Men and OMAC and Forever People. The guy cleary cares. He is just not a fan of the post-Crisis era like a lot of us. Also he and Jimmy Palmiotti were friends growing up and supposedly one of the perks of being friends with long term Palmiotti was he got free comics off him. So he is definitely a fan.

I stand corrected then, but it clearly did not show in how he treated the characters or where he was pushing the brands.

[Stanlos]

He was basically parachuted in by someone high up at WB to run DC (https://bleedingcool.com/comics/supe...ddie-berganza/) over Levitz's choces like Loeb and Waid. The writing on Superboy and later editorial stuff was basically to groom and prep him for taking over DC.

Also it should be noted he is a fan. The sheer OCD over Barry/Nighwing/Batgirl imo is only something that a fanboy would care about. Ditto for pushing obscure stuff like Metal Men and OMAC and Forever People. The guy cleary cares. He is just not a fan of the post-Crisis era like a lot of us. Also he and Jimmy Palmiotti were friends growing up and supposedly one of the perks of being friends with long term Palmiotti was he got free comics off him. So he is definitely a fan.

Ahh, so there WAS sanity somewhere. I have been wondering wtf they went with DiDio and Johns when effing Mark Waid, Kurt Busiek, Loeb, et al. were there. Good ol' social BS at work again

[Alan2099]

Honestly this all sounds like it would have been a really interesting Elseworlds limited series, but how dense do you have to be to think "Okay,. what we're going to do now is get rid of the most most popular characters in comics EVER ... then everyone will be happy!"?

[Primal Slayer]

Having the entire Fox fam take over all the Bat roles would've been stupid and im glad that never happened.

[Myskin]

I would argue that even the success of Wally West is now in question..... with sales of the Flash out of the top 100 since at least October.

Because Barry Allen exists. If Barry Allen had never come back, maybe they would have tried to make Wally West relevant in a more straightforward and convincing way. No matter what they say, there isn't enough space for two Flashes who are BOTH presented as main characters at the same time.

The most successful legacy character of them all is, Nightwing. Why?

Because - as you said - he's not replacing Batman. He evolved into another character, distinct enough from Batman to be his own thing. As I wrote elsewhere, we shouldn't forget that none of these characters - Wally Wast, Roy Harper, Dick Grayson - were ever conceived as heirs, but rather as sidekicks. They were not supposed to replace their mentors. It doesn't mean that the concept of legacy can't be relevant and also interesting in its own account, but it works only for very specific series (Starman, JSA, Stargirl).

[Captain Nostalgia]

Because Barry Allen exists. If Barry Allen had never come back, maybe they would have tried to make Wally West relevant in a more straightforward and convincing way. No matter what they say, there isn't enough space for two Flashes who are BOTH presented as main characters at the same time.


Because - as you said - he's not replacing Batman. He evolved into another character, distinct enough from Batman to be his own thing. As I wrote elsewhere, we shouldn't forget that none of these characters - Wally Wast, Roy Harper, Dick Grayson - were ever conceived as heirs, but rather as sidekicks. They were not supposed to replace their mentors. It doesn't mean that the concept of legacy can't be relevant and also interesting in its own account, but it works only for very specific series (Starman, JSA, Stargirl).

Agreed and agreed.

One of the general problem with legacy heroes is that 9 times out of 10 the original returns and splits the fanbase, and as you say, there is only enough space for one of them to hold the mantle of the Flash at the same time.

You therefore split the fanbase into two, the vast majority who only want to read their favourite version of the Flash..... thus inevitably dampening sales and damaging the brand.

Even multimedia wise, if a young kid is watching the Flash tv show, and picks up a Flash comic and it's not Barry, chances are he will be a little disappointed and lose interest.

People get emotional about this because if their favourite version of a hero is sitting on the sidelines, they understandably want them to hold the title, but from a business standpoint, it should be who sells the best, not.....but I want my favourite.

[Refrax5]

[QUOTE=Myskin;6337410]Because Barry Allen exists. If Barry Allen had never come back, maybe they would have tried to make Wally West relevant in a more straightforward and convincing way. No matter what they say, there isn't enough space for two Flashes who are BOTH presented as main characters at the same time.

I honestly don't think that's the issue. Barry has been more or less relegated to a side character. Why would a Wally book that is well received by his fans be selling poorly just because Barry Allen exists as a background character? It's not like Barry has his own book to divide sales, nor are they sharing the book.

There's one Flash book and Wally is the focus. I don't think that logic holds up at all.