Sales Discussion: Batman, Bat- Family and Related Titles

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

I mean The TT were Dick's things and Babs was the tech wizard

As the first Robin and Batgirl they do have more angles to tackle and at that point, Dick was handling Blüdhaven while Barbara had stopped being Oracle and was full-time as Batgirl in the field but we're back to my point about how nostalgia is bad, Dick is back with the titans and nothing really worthwhile has come from that, Beast World is an awful event and as a whole it just keeps hitting the same plot beats while editorial is now stuck tryin to keep her as Batgirl and Oracle at the same time without committing to either, leaving her stuck as Dick's hang-on. Jason on the other hand, is stuck endlessly rehashing the same plot beats of UTRH over and over.

[HsssH]

It is so weird that Red Hood has two omnibuses and Birds of Prey by Gail Simone, Birds of Prey by Chuck Dixon, Robin by Chuck Dixon and Batman Beyond have no omnibus treatment... Most of them are so much better runs and all of the titles are so much popular than Red Hood.

Red Hood has probably made more money for DC than Birds of Prey and Dixon's Robin combined.

[Frontier]

Tim's problem was the New 52 reboot, plain and simple.

Well, there is a certain amount of sex appeal with Poison Ivy, Catwoman and Harley Quinn.

Writers seem to shy away from sex appeal with Batwoman these days, plus as far as personality goes Kate doesn't get flirty in costume - the main sex appeal in the past had her in states of undress or with poses. I'm not too familiar with Huntress, so I don't know the situation there.

They also refuse to put Barbara in spandex.

Gunn didn't read Tim's solo and all of a sudden decide he wants to do stuff with Damian. Tim's problem extends beyond the floppies.

I don't see what that had to do with it. Did he say he'd never read a Tim comic?

Using one Robin doesn't make any other Robin less than by comparison, even if it's sometimes treated that way.

[Godlike13]

As the first Robin and Batgirl they do have more angles to tackle and at that point, Dick was handling Blüdhaven while Barbara had stopped being Oracle and was full-time as Batgirl in the field but we're back to my point about how nostalgia is bad, Dick is back with the titans and nothing really worthwhile has come from that, Beast World is an awful event and as a whole it just keeps hitting the same plot beats while editorial is now stuck tryin to keep her as Batgirl and Oracle at the same time without committing to either, leaving her stuck as Dick's hang-on. Jason on the other hand, is stuck endlessly rehashing the same plot beats of UTRH over and over.

Red Robin wasn't a particularly imaginative moniker, while leading the Teen Titans was a niche that every Robin has filled. He was just who they choose to do it with at the time, in an effort to copy what Dick did before. It’s not an issue of nostalgia, character like Dick and Babs are purposely put in lesser positions so their brothers and sisters can do things they did. Because they either don't know what to do with the others or they think its safe things to do. Even if they don't do it as well. Beast World is biggest thing the Titans have done in decades. You would never see something like that when Teen Titans was Tim "niche" because they literally wiped out most of Dick's Titans gen and erased him ever being a Titan so the Teen Titans could be Tim and his gen's "niche". But he wasn't actually doing anything they couldn't do with another Robin. Same with Babs. She's been sidelined not because of nostalgia but because they wanted to push Steph and Cass as Batgirls again, but Babs was the one with a movie in the works. So she still had to be Batgirl somewhere as insurance. That didn't really work out and so now the Batgirl brand is in half state of limbo as a whole. The same thing just happened to Damian. He was just sidelined so they could push Tim, though they didn't know Gunn wanted to use him so they didn't even bother to even stash him anywhere relevant.
And the reason Jason's stuck endlessly rehashing the same plot beats of UTRH over and over is because, like with what they do with Tim, its safe. Its the most likely take to be adapted. Where less traditional ideas like having lead a team of monsters die on the vine.

I don't see what that had to do with it. Did he say he'd never read a Tim comic?

Using one Robin doesn't make any other Robin less than by comparison, even if it's sometimes treated that way.

Its indicative of Tim's situation, there's no new interest in him. Tim's a road that goes no where. While floppies can't afford to give resources to all of them. So when they push one, the pull from the other. In this instance they pushed the one no one wants to do anything with. His last series wasn't just a mistake because it was bad, it was a mistake to begin with.

[Felipe Silveira]

For decades, DC has had difficulty finding ways to "move" its "less important" characters. I always use Black Canary at DC as an example compared to Spider Woman at Marvel. There is no doubt who is more important in their respective universe, yet Spider Woman receives much more attention from Marvel than Black Canary from DC.
And when DC has released something with "less important" characters it has been a disaster: Robin (Tim), Hawkgirl, Fire and Ice.....etc.

[Godlike13]

DC never treated Tim as a less important character, he was pushed as an important character. One they wanted to build lines around. Thing is audiences didn't respond to him as an important character. DC and general audiences aren't on the same page with Tim.

[WonderNight]

For decades, DC has had difficulty finding ways to "move" its "less important" characters. I always use Black Canary at DC as an example compared to Spider Woman at Marvel. There is no doubt who is more important in their respective universe, yet Spider Woman receives much more attention from Marvel than Black Canary from DC.
And when DC has released something with "less important" characters it has been a disaster: Robin (Tim), Hawkgirl, Fire and Ice.....etc.

Maybe DC doesn't have the resources and market share to push less popular characters as much.

[Frontier]

Red Robin wasn't a particularly imaginative moniker, while leading the Teen Titans was a niche that every Robin has filled. He was just who they choose to do it with at the time, in an effort to copy what Dick did before. Its not an issue of nostalgia, character like Dick and Babs are purposely put in lesser positions so their brothers and sisters can do things they did. Because they either don't know what to do with the others or they think its safe things to do. Even if they don't do it as well. Beast World is biggest thing the Titans have done in decades. You would never see something like that when Teen Titans was Tim "niche" because they literally wiped out most of Dick's Titans gen and erased him ever being a Titan so the Teen Titans could be Tim and his gen's "niche". But he wasn't actually doing anything they couldn't do with another Robin. Same with Babs. She's been sidelined not because of nostalgia but because they wanted to push Steph and Cass as Batgirls again, but Babs was the one with a movie in the works. So she still had to be Batgirl somewhere as insurance. That didn't really work out and so now the Batgirl brand is in half state of limbo a s whole. The same thing just happened to Damian. He was just sidelined so they could push Tim, though they didn't know Gunn wanted to use him so they didn't even bother to even stash him anywhere relevant.
And the reason Jason's stuck endlessly rehashing the same plot beats of UTRH over and over is because, like with what they do with Tim, its safe. Its the most likely take to be adapted. Where less traditional ideas like having lead a team of monsters die on the vine.

I think people were too hard on the Red Robin name.

I don't think it's some slight to Dick when another Robin leads their own Titans team with their generation of characters. And it's not like Cass or Steph were Babs redux when they had Batgirl books. Babs sales hadn't been all that hot for a while now.

Damian still had his own solo with Joshua Williamson so he wasn't completely cast aside for Tim.

Its indicative of Tim's situation, there's no new interest in him. Tim's a road that goes no where. While floppies can't afford to give resources to all of them. So when they push one, the pull from the other. In this instance they pushed the one no one wants to do anything with. His last series wasn't just a mistake because it was bad, it was a mistake to begin with.

I don't believe that. Especially when there was so much working against the book beyond just starring Tim.

[Badou]

Tim is stuck in the 16-18 age range and basically all characters in that range are kind of struggling in DC now. I don't think DC knows what to do with them or how to use them. It feels like books focusing on teens have dried up at DC completely.

[skyvolt2000]

Maybe DC doesn't have the resources and market share to push less popular characters as much.

Spider Woman gets more attention because of Miles and Peter and the use of almost everyone who is a Spider person.

She also held previous solos and has over 100 solo issues.

She also has a rather popular costume that get drawn a lot in fan art.

It's not so much about resources it's about usage and follow ups.

Like I have said does every character REALLY need a mini or ongoing?? Can't an OGN be enough? Can't digital only series like Marvel does work?

You can do it in ways that don't require a ton of resources.

Back ups in books since we are stuck in writing for trades-cut some of that filler material out.

[Konja7]

Tim is one of the best examples of how nostalgia can hurt a character. Red Robin with all of its flaws was a step in the right direction for Tim as a character and having him as a tech wiz and leading the Teen Titans gave him a niche that no other Robin could fill and set him apart quite nicely from his brothers. But once that Tynion decide to regress him to Robin and stuck him at Bruce's side it was the beginning of the end, Tim as a Robin is simply fighting a losing fight with Damian because The "regular" Robin is just not as compelling as the literal son of Batman or the fallen Robin looking for redemption. Not even the stunt of making him bi was enough to give him a strong enough hook to justify him being Robin again.

And since Zdarsky is also stuck on the same mindset that Tim should be Robin, his future looks bleak.

To be fair, New52 Teen Titans and the way it handles Tim didn't have a good reception. It started high on sales (as many New52 comics), but the popularity falls at the end. So, this was not a sustainable role for Tim anymore.

Honestly, I feel New52 Teen Titans was one of the biggest blows for Tim's popularity. In fact, Tynion making Tim to be Bruce sidekick again was an attempt to make Tim regain popularity, but it didn't work.


PS: Tim was still Red Robin with Tynion (even if his suit look similar to Robin).

[Aahz]

He was just who they choose to do it with at the time, in an effort to copy what Dick did before.

Not really he ended up in Teen Titans post flashpoint, since his generation had a pretty popular run up untill flashpoint, while Dick's generation didn't do all that good.

[Drako]

Not really he ended up in Teen Titans post flashpoint, since his generation had a pretty popular run up untill flashpoint, while Dick's generation didn't do all that good.

Not really. Johns left the book by issue #50 and the book ended in issue #100. The book with Sean Mckeever, Felicia D. Henderson and JT Krull was not popular.

And to the point of coping the Wolfman run, Johns brought back the classic line-up of Robin, Wonder Girl (with Cassie), Starfire, Cyborg, Beast Boy, Raven (which he brought back from the dead) and Kid Flash (he turned Impulse into Kid Flash). The only new addition was Superboy.

Not only that but at least in the beginning he used and brought back characters from that classic run, like Jericho, Deathstroke, Brotherblood.
Not saying that was a bad run cause i really like it.

[Aahz]

Not really. Johns left the book by issue #50 and the book ended in issue #100. The book with Sean Mckeever, Felicia D. Henderson and JT Krull was not popular.

But is made it to issue #100 and iirc only ended because of Flashpoint.

Dick gen of Titans didn't have such a long run since Wolfman's ended.

I mean you could still argue that he copied Dick, but that would have happend with Graduation Day not with the New 52.

Tim's gen being the Teen Titans after Flashpoint was imo mostly due to them allready being the Teen Titans before flashpoint.

[Godlike13]

I think people were too hard on the Red Robin name.

I don't think it's some slight to Dick when another Robin leads their own Titans team with their generation of characters. And it's not like Cass or Steph were Babs redux when they had Batgirl books. Babs sales hadn't been all that hot for a while now.

Damian still had his own solo with Joshua Williamson so he wasn't completely cast aside for Tim.

I don't believe that. Especially when there was so much working against the book beyond just starring Tim.

I never said it was a slight, its simply how they operated. They have them follow in others foot steps to try and recreate the successes of their predecessors. Often at the expense of their predecessors. And Damian’s book was canceled to make way for Tim’s.

It’s not really a matter of belief. Damian has been around for a 3rd of the time Tim has and already has a larger presence outside of floppies. It’s why Tim’s book was canceled so quickly, as we have seen them let poorly performing book hang around simply for better PR. It became evident to them that there is no future with Tim as Robin, the greater interest is in Damian now yet here they were pushing Tim as Robin.