Sales Discussion: Batman, Bat- Family and Related Titles

[Godlike13]

Nightwing isn't selling well because because there are more people who love Dick Grayson, it sells well because Tom Taylor is a good writer and Redondo's art is gorgeous. And it's the same with just about ever character not named Batman where their sales rise and fall with the quality of the creative team behind the book.


It's just a flat, objective fact and it's silly to try and pretend otherwise.

Dick’s book is over 100 issues. Taylor is the biggest name the character has seen in a decade. You acting like Ric wasn’t just 3 years ago. How has his book survived if just comes down to creators. Same goes for Damian. What kind of creators was Damian getting before William. It wasn’t the big sellers.

[ayanestar]

Nightwing isn't selling well because because there are more people who love Dick Grayson, it sells well because Tom Taylor is a good writer and Redondo's art is gorgeous. And it's the same with just about ever character not named Batman where their sales rise and fall with the quality of the creative team behind the book.


It's just a flat, objective fact and it's silly to try and pretend otherwise.

Dick sold more issues during his Ric era than Tim managed to sell with his first ever solo in years, and I would argue that book was worst than Tim's. Anyway, I'm not sure why you are trying to turn this into a Dick vs. Tim situation, nobody even mentioned Dick except you.

[thwhtGuardian]

If the character was really what sold the book then why wouldn't the sales be consistent rather than see-sawing with changes in art and writing?

And I bring up the Dick/Tim comparison up because the conversation always seems to be focused on putting down Tim as a character and not actually the elements that actually effect change in sales and then pivoting to how great Nigtwing is going.

And I say that as someone who thinks Taylor's Nightwing is probably top ten best superhero comics of the last ten years.

Again, it's just silly to think that the characters have a lot to do with sales. Is the character appeal a part of it? Sure, but at the end of the day the talent behind it is a much bigger factor. It's a cute conversation when it's between kids, "Batman sells better than Superman because Batman's cooler!" but for people actually serious about the hobby? It's not cute, it just feels out of touch with reality.

[Godlike13]

Sales are in a constant state of deflation, so you'll see many things that will potentially inflate sales. Events, variant, anniversaries, and yes creative changes, but then they go back to deflating. And we are talking about things that effect sales, like a characters not being as popular they were, readers preferring other characters, and pretentious marketing that turns off general readers. You guys just keep trying to spin it as if we are just putting Tim down.

[Drako]

If the character was really what sold the book then why wouldn't the sales be consistent rather than see-sawing with changes in art and writing?

And I bring up the Dick/Tim comparison up because the conversation always seems to be focused on putting down Tim as a character and not actually the elements that actually effect change in sales and then pivoting to how great Nigtwing is going.

And I say that as someone who thinks Taylor's Nightwing is probably top ten best superhero comics of the last ten years.

Again, it's just silly to think that the characters have a lot to do with sales. Is the character appeal a part of it? Sure, but at the end of the day the talent behind it is a much bigger factor. It's a cute conversation when it's between kids, "Batman sells better than Superman because Batman's cooler!" but for people actually serious about the hobby? It's not cute, it just feels out of touch with reality.

Well, having his book survive being written by Scott Lobdell and Dan Jurgens for 27 issues in a era despised by his fans and while the main character is basically another dude is no easy feat. Some books nowadays don't get to even twenty issues in a mediocre run, let alone being hated by the fanbase.

[thwhtGuardian]

Sales are in a constant state of deflation, so you'll see many things that will potentially inflate sales. Events, variant, anniversaries, and yes creative changes, but then they go back to deflating. And we are talking about things that effect sales, like a characters not being as popular they were, readers preferring other characters, and pretentious marketing that turns off general readers. You guys just keep trying to spin it as if we are just putting Tim down.

The first half of that statement is all good and mature in terms of understanding comic book sales but then you get right back into that juvenile, "It's because Batman is cooler than Superman!" territory at the end.

If Grant Morrison/Tom King/ Brian K. Vaughn/ Mark Waid said tomorrow that they were doing a Tim Drake book with art by Dan Mora/ Ivan Reis/ Greg Capullo or Zombie Jack Kirby that book would sell like hot cakes...and the same would be true if the character were even more obscure.

And the "pretentious marketing" I think I'd want clarification there.

[Aahz]

Well, having his book survive being written by Scott Lobdell and Dan Jurgens for 27 issues in a era despised by his fans and while the main character is basically another dude is no easy feat. Some books nowadays don't get to even twenty issues in a mediocre run, let alone being hated by the fanbase.

I also think that Dick has currently the biggest fanbase among Batman characters (appart from Batman) and a higher sales floor.

But I'm nit sure how long he would have survived a Megan Fitzmartin run with art from Rossmo ...

[Godlike13]

The first half of that statement is all good and mature in terms of understanding comic book sales but then you get right back into that juvenile, "It's because Batman is cooler than Superman!" territory at the end.

If Grant Morrison/Tom King/ Brian K. Vaughn/ Mark Waid said tomorrow that they were doing a Tim Drake book with art by Dan Mora/ Ivan Reis/ Greg Capullo or Zombie Jack Kirby that book would sell like hot cakes...and the same would be true if the character were even more obscure.

And the "pretentious marketing" I think I'd want clarification there.

Tim’s not getting Grant Morrison/Tom King/BKV/Waid. They can’t just pay up to put those guys on low performing characters. Especially ones that have nothing going on outside of comics, and no real prospects there even. It’s just not cost effective and they quite frankly can’t afford it. They already made that mistake when they had Bendis try to launch a line around Young Justice. These characters need to be able to sustain with more reasonable and newer names. That’s the goal. Like I said before, DC is in the character business not the creator business.

And pretentious marketing, you know tag lines like The World Greatest Robin which doesn’t just makes sense to everyone who might not necessarily be a Tim fan.

[thwhtGuardian]

Tim’s not getting Grant Morrison/Tom King/BKV/Waid. They can’t just pay up to put those guys on low performing characters. Especially ones that have nothing going on outside of comics, and no real prospects there even. It’s just not cost effective and they quite frankly can’t afford it. They already made that mistake when they put Bendis on Young Justice. These characters need to be able to sustain with more reasonable and newer names. That’s the goal. Like I said before, DC is in the character business not the creator business.

And pretentious marketing, you know tag lines like The World Greatest Robin which doesn’t just makes sense to everyone who might necessarily be a die hard Tim fan.

They wouldn't be low performing with any credible creative team is the point. If the last run didn't have an absolute garbage artist it would have sold well enough to continue. Only little kids and completionists buy for the characters literally everyone else is about the actual quality of the product.

[Godlike13]

They wouldn't be low performing with any credible creative team is the point. If the last run didn't have an absolute garbage artist it would have sold well enough to continue. Only little kids and completionists buy for the characters literally everyone else is about the actual quality of the product.

Except they have performed low with credible creative teams. Young Justice had the most credible creative team any Bat character save for Batman has seen prior to Taylor on Nightwing. What’s more a better artist wouldn’t have change Gunn coming out and expressing interest in Damian. Which made the whole idea of Tim’s return to Robin and sidelining Damian counterproductive. Plus they put this artist on Harley Quinn before Tim. This wasn’t someone they just picked out of the trash.

[Frontier]

These sales discussions always seem to come back to Tim for some reason.

Except they have performed low with credible creative teams. Young Justice had the most credible creative team any Bat character save for Batman has seen prior to Taylor on Nightwing. What’s more a better artist wouldn’t have change Gunn coming out and expressing interest in Damian. Which made the whole idea of Tim’s return to Robin and sidelining Damian counterproductive. Plus they put this artist on Harley Quinn before Tim. This wasn’t someone they just picked out of the trash.

But a lot of people pointed out how Rossmo fit Harley better than a Tim book.

[dietrich]

This all just reads like sour grapes left over from the 90's when Tim fans would gloat that he was better because he had a solo and Dick didn't. I get it, it was gratingly annoying back then but that was thirty years ago so it just seems juvenile to gloat now that Tim Drake has fallen on hard times while Dick is having a renaissance.

I wasn't around 30yrs ago so didn't exprencie the 90's gloat but as someone who got into comics during the end of Morrison's Batman run.

I'm so over the revisionist history that Tim was the only one who believed, figured out and brought Bruce back. That isn't true and it's not some DC that was happening while the RR run was going on.

It's one of the the most recurring fanon for canon takes out there. It's happening right here on this thread.

It's annoying [a pet peeve perhapes] when fans who follow the comics repeat this **** or try to discredit/bad-faith those who correct them.

It's fine not to recall or be mistaken but it's not fair to call being factual or a different pov sour grapes.

[HsssH]

If the character was really what sold the book then why wouldn't the sales be consistent rather than see-sawing with changes in art and writing?

Fascinating how someone can read big 2 comics and at the same think that at the end of the day it is not about specific characters being more commercially viable than others.

Why do you think Batman/Superman by Waid/Mora is one the better DC's sellers and Shazam by same creative team is trending towards cancellation?

[Konja7]

They wouldn't be low performing with any credible creative team is the point. If the last run didn't have an absolute garbage artist it would have sold well enough to continue. Only little kids and completionists buy for the characters literally everyone else is about the actual quality of the product.

This isn't really true. Not every character will be success with a strong team. We have a good amount of comics with strong teams selling poorly.

I'm sure there are popular writers or artists that could influence sales at some level, but Big 2 comic buyers seem to mainly decide based on the characters (most Big 2 comics buyers are fans of the characters)


There is also an opportunity cost. Even if a C or B list character could have decent sales with a extremely popular team, it would still be less sales than A list character with the same team. So, they will put the popular teams with A list characters.

[Vordan]

Fascinating how someone can read big 2 comics and at the same think that at the end of the day it is not about specific characters being more commercially viable than others.

Why do you think Batman/Superman by Waid/Mora is one the better DC's sellers and Shazam by same creative team is trending towards cancellation?

I was about to point this out myself. Tim simply isn’t a “big” character anymore. Nightwing, Red Hood, and Damian Robin are all more popular and there’s no way he’s going to recover in popularity because those three are all getting featured more prominently. He will stick around because there are millennials fans in positions of power at DC, but once the 90s nostalgia wears off Tim is in a very precarious position. Can’t move forward, can’t move back, and no reason for DC to invest a lot of resources in him given how bloated the Batfamily is.