Sales Discussion: Batman, Bat- Family and Related Titles

[Felipe Silveira]

The problem with Red Hood is that it spent 10 years being written by Lobdell, and what happened in those 10 years in the character's comic book is irrelevant to what the character is in relation to Batman.

[Felipe Silveira]

Note on Damian and Tim: Damian has been pushed a lot more by Batman than Tim. Batman vs Deathstroke in Rebirth, Shadow War and Robin vs Batman, and now Lazarus planet. Give Tim the same treatment in 4 years and we'll see interest in the character grow.

[Godlike13]

And Tim didn't have a single good series since then. This also needs to be taken into account when it comes to his sales. Jason has the similar problem.
Dick and Damian were way more lucky with that.

Account for what? It plays a factor in why his marketability has diminished, but doesn’t change that his marketability has diminished. The character can’t perform like he did 10 years ago. Which wasn’t even that high of a bar.

Note on Damian and Tim: Damian has been pushed a lot more by Batman than Tim. Batman vs Deathstroke in Rebirth, Shadow War and Robin vs Batman, and now Lazarus planet. Give Tim the same treatment in 4 years and we'll see interest in the character grow.

Future’s End, Rebirth Tec, Bendis Young Justice, Future State, his current return to Robin mega push. Let’s not confuse failures with poor treatment or not being pushed. In fact most of what they do with Damian is undercut by Tim Drake pushes. Damian was pushed out of the Bat offices with Rebirth and Tims return, then his Teen Titans was buried by Bendis’ YJ and their Wonder line attempt, and now his Robin book ended to make way for Tim’s. This idea that Damian has been push more is false. Tim gets pushed, the projects just flop. And they have to rely on outside Batman projects with Damian because the main Batman books won’t touch him.

[Frontier]

Future’s End, Rebirth Tec, Bendis Young Justice, Future State, his current return to Robin mega push. Let’s not confuse failures with poor treatment or not being pushed. In fact most of what they do with Damian is undercut by Tim Drake pushes. Damian was pushed out of the Bat offices with Rebirth and Tims return, then his Teen Titans was buried by Bendis’ YJ and their Wonder line attempt, and now his Robin book ended to make way for Tim’s. This idea that Damian has been push more is false. Tim gets pushed, the projects just flop. And they have to rely on outside Batman projects with Damian because the main Batman books won’t touch him.

To be honest the only one of those that was received well (even if I had my issues with it) was Rebirth 'Tec.

Did they say explicitly that Damians book was ended for Tim's? I don't think Bendis' YJ had anything to do with Damians' Titans imploding.

[Godlike13]

Again don’t confused failures with poor treatment or not being pushed. Because those projects weren’t received well by audiences doesn’t mean they weren’t trying and he wasn’t pushed.

[Felipe Silveira]

Again: Batman events, everything you've said, if added together, doesn't have the same impact as being central to Batman events. And being in something doesn't mean having something outstanding to add, in the events I spoke about, you have Damian's paternity being questioned, you have a Damain vs Deathstroke rivalry being pushed. You can't compare that to Bendis (which nobody cares about since Siege).

[Rac7d*]

Note on Damian and Tim: Damian has been pushed a lot more by Batman than Tim. Batman vs Deathstroke in Rebirth, Shadow War and Robin vs Batman, and now Lazarus planet. Give Tim the same treatment in 4 years and we'll see interest in the character grow.

Tim been around for 30 years we’re past time of building him up
Especially as robin

[Frontier]

Again don’t confused failures with poor treatment or not being pushed. Because those projects weren’t received well by audiences doesn’t mean they weren’t trying and he wasn’t pushed.

I think the failures, however unintentional, contribute to poor treatment.

[Morgoth]

It's a set of reasons. Poor treatment, terrible creative teams, absolute absence of any development, stubborn reluctance to let Tim become something outside of Robin, in fact, the problem is that they are too strongly attached to the archetype of "classic take on Robin" and are not willing to let it go, that's why they keep sabotaging Damian, despite the fact, he remains more popular now, even with all these attempts to bury him.

[Astralabius]

Account for what? It plays a factor in why his marketability has diminished, but doesn’t change that his marketability has diminished. The character can’t perform like he did 10 years ago. Which wasn’t even that high of a bar.



And they have to rely on outside Batman projects with Damian because the main Batman books won’t touch him.

Except for the two crossover issues for Shadow War and that one Demon or Detective backup story, when was the last time Damian even appeared in the main Batman title? City of Bane? I think it was totally possible to not even know that they had a falling out if you just read Batman because they never adressed it.

[Astralabius]

I think the failures, however unintentional, contribute to poor treatment.

Editorial deciding to make a character have a secret torture chamber, mind-wipe people and return to killing so they can kick them out of their mantle and turn them into a supervillain their new Superman and Batman can fight is poor treatment.
If DC wanted Tim to fail they could do much worse to him than they have done.

[Astralabius]

To be honest the only one of those that was received well (even if I had my issues with it) was Rebirth 'Tec.

Did they say explicitly that Damians book was ended for Tim's? I don't think Bendis' YJ had anything to do with Damians' Titans imploding.

I don't think they would ever explicitly confirm that. But we do know from Tynion that the goal of his Tec run was to make Tim the main Robin again. At the same time control over Damian was given to the Superman department. A week before the TT annual that saw Damian quitting as Robin came out an issue of Young Justice had Batman ask Tim to go back to being Robin. The whole goal of the Glass/Thompson run was to kick Damian out of the mantle and turn him into a villain for 5G.
Future State was based on plans they had for 5G. In FS Tim was Robin while Damian's fate was kept in the dark.
When Damian's solo ended even though the sales were good enough Tim's Robin solo took its place immediately.

I've seen some people talk as if Batman vs Robin being stated as the reason Damian's solo was always meant to end where it ended means Tim had nothing to do with it, but just because plans for Tim weren't the sole reason doesn't mean it didn't contribute to the decision to end Damian's book.

So, do we have any official confirmations? No. But it is hard to believe that Damian losing his place in the batman books, the robin mantle and his solo right when Tim gets these things back has absolutely nothing to do with each other.

[Konja7]

Future State was based on plans they had for 5G. In FS Tim was Robin while Damian's fate was kept in the dark.

Honestly, I don't think Tim being Robin was the plan for 5G. At that time, Bendis was trying to give Tim a new identity as Drake (which was pretty unpopular).

I think it's more likely DC did not want any character to have the Robin mantle, so Jace as Batman could have his own Robin.


PS: It's true that Future State was based on 5G at some level, but many stories were surely created based on plans for the following months.

[Fergus]

To be honest the only one of those that was received well (even if I had my issues with it) was Rebirth 'Tec.

Did they say explicitly that Damians book was ended for Tim's? I don't think Bendis' YJ had anything to do with Damians' Titans imploding.

Damian's TT didn't implode. Fans just didn't like how he was portrayed and then when it was revealed that the writer was tasked to intentionally make the character a villain in preparation for his role as the 5g big bad, fans lost their ****.

Ironically just like the much hated Lobdell TT before it the run had okay sales.

Williamson stated that his Robin series had a ticking clock built in. DC was already had batman v Robin in the works so he was advised it would be a short run.

However Glass also admitted that the decision had been made behind the scenes for Damian to lose Robin. He said that the decision was made even before he came on to the TT book.

[Fergus]

The market and the comic universe is always changing. Characters rise and fall in popularity as competition increases, readership changes and societal tastes change.

Superman used to more popular than Batman so it's not unusual for once popular characters to become less popular.

A character's fail in popularity isn't unusual.

Both Tim and Damian are pushed and both are mismanaged. The big Batman pushes that were cited for Damian were about as welcome/well recieved as DC's 3 big pushes for Tim in the last 3 era's:

New 52
TT founder and Batman Beyond.
Rebirth
Return to Robin as part of the face of DC's Teen Imprint


Rebirth Tec [restored origin and Batman push] and Infinite Frontier[Pr push as one of DC's key LGbtQ male characters and push in current batman series] were positive for Tim but this solo appears to be another misfire.

Damian's swerve from would be Mini Hitler in Rebirth to Williamson's Robin was a positive but BvR was a misfire.

Hopefully DC can get their **** together and course correct with both.