Last of Us on HBO

[Immortal Weapon]

I appreciate that you disagree with my interpretation, but I hope you would not argue that being an important aspect of art? That it can be viewed and appreciated differently by different people?

In the spirit of discussing as opposed to just declaring one another wrong, I wasn't saying Joel's decision to protect Ellie was wrong. Marlene and the Fireflies were wrong with their plan to kill her and hope for the best.

Joel was wrong because he was killing people who were surrendering. Marlene could have just shot him in the back, but instead tried to reason with him, even disarming herself after he just slaughtered every other Firefly. Yeah, I have to say I think shooting her because "you'll just come after her" was wrong.

The Fireflies might have been flawed, but they were not the immoral raiders Joel usually kills or even amoral Fedra. He acknowledged they were well-intentioned but misguided, before he ever met Ellie. That his adoptive daughter was temporarily in danger from them did not justify exterminating every one like they were vermin, which is what he did.

And yep, fair enough if you still consider him totally right in all that, but yeah -- I guess I'd say, interesting take, and I'd be curious to the ethical or practical justification. Like, Joel had already proven he alone was more deadly than the whole Firefly army. Killing them all wasn't a rational decision on his part imo, but again just a trauma response.

I don't think Joel was wrong in killing the people who were surrendering. He's been surviving in a hellscape for 20 years. It would be dumb of him to let them live as it will give them a chance to get back at him later. That was case for him and Ellie in their encounter at the university. Had he let them live they likely would have tracked them to Jackson.

The Fireflies are not a lesser evil in my eyes. From what I remember from the Riley episode the fireflies bombings would often put civilians in danger and they treat it as collateral damage. Fireflies don't have any moral objections to recruiting children. Their mission statement of wanting to restore the world to how it was is ridiculous when it's beyond repair for that goal to be realistically possible. Given how divisive they are to the general public of the setting they are not as effective as they should be.

[Tuck]

The Fireflies are not a lesser evil in my eyes. From what I remember from the Riley episode the fireflies bombings would often put civilians in danger and they treat it as collateral damage. Fireflies don't have any moral objections to recruiting children. Their mission statement of wanting to restore the world to how it was is ridiculous when it's beyond repair for that goal to be realistically possible. Given how divisive they are to the general public of the setting they are not as effective as they should be.

Yeah, they're Lost Causers by the time the game starts. I think a lot of players see them as good guys because of the voice over during the opening credits, when their cause was justified.

There's even some stuff in the museum in the birthday flashback in the second game. It's missable, but it shows the Fireflies essentially committing what would be war crimes.

Their fervent devotion to getting a vaccine by any means necessary is desperation that mirrors Ellie's own statement toward the end of the first game: "After all that we've been through. After everything I've done. It can't be for nothing."

At the point the game is set, Tommy's group is the way forward for humanity. Putting aside production and infrastructure questions, a vaccine doesn't fix that the world is utterly broken. It would have 20 years ago, but not in the game's present.

[thwhtGuardian]

I don't think Joel was wrong in killing the people who were surrendering. He's been surviving in a hellscape for 20 years. It would be dumb of him to let them live as it will give them a chance to get back at him later. That was case for him and Ellie in their encounter at the university. Had he let them live they likely would have tracked them to Jackson.

The Fireflies are not a lesser evil in my eyes. From what I remember from the Riley episode the fireflies bombings would often put civilians in danger and they treat it as collateral damage. Fireflies don't have any moral objections to recruiting children. Their mission statement of wanting to restore the world to how it was is ridiculous when it's beyond repair for that goal to be realistically possible. Given how divisive they are to the general public of the setting they are not as effective as they should be.

Pretty much this, there wasn't much of a moral question in Joel's killing because he literally had no other option. His world isn't ours, it's not like he could escape without killing anyone, run to the cops and tell them a cult was trying to kill his adopted daughter and then let the criminal justice system take it's course. In his situation the only way to keep Ellie alive is to kill those who would come after her.

Now, taking the choice out of Ellie's hands? That was where the moral quandary lied. Could he have woken her up, explained what was going on and see if she felt if her life was worth a potential cure? What would she have decided? He took that choice away, and who is he to decide if the good of the one outweighs the good of the many?
That's the moral gray area, not the killings.

[Immortal Weapon]

Pretty much this, there wasn't much of a moral question in Joel's killing because he literally had no other option. His world isn't ours, it's not like he could escape without killing anyone, run to the cops and tell them a cult was trying to kill his adopted daughter and then let the criminal justice system take it's course. In his situation the only way to keep Ellie alive is to kill those who would come after her.

Now, taking the choice out of Ellie's hands? That was where the moral quandary lied. Could he have woken her up, explained what was going on and see if she felt if her life was worth a potential cure? What would she have decided? He took that choice away, and who is he to decide if the good of the one outweighs the good of the many?
That's the moral gray area, not the killings.

Joel knew that Ellie was willing to sacrifice herself. The moment where they saw the giraffes and moment they shared right before being ambushed by the fireflies made that clear to him. Joel doing what he did was clearly a selfish decision. One imo was the better one in the long run.

[Tuck]

Ellie is 14, suffering from survivor's guilt, and was raised by the leader of the cause for which she wishes to sacrifice herself.

If any semblance of the government The Fireflies were formed to re-establish existed in the world, Ellie would not be legally competent to make the decision to sacrifice herself. (Pretty sure it wouldn't be legal even if she were a legal adult of sound mind.)

[Immortal Weapon]

Ellie is 14, suffering from survivor's guilt, and was raised by the leader of the cause for which she wishes to sacrifice herself.

If any semblance of the government The Fireflies were formed to re-establish existed in the world, Ellie would not be legally competent to make the decision to sacrifice herself. (Pretty sure it wouldn't be legal even if she were a legal adult of sound mind.)

Ellie wasn't raised by Marlene. Ellie was raised at a Fedra boarding school. Marlene re-enter her life when she got infected and discovered her immunity.

[Tuck]

Ellie wasn't raised by Marlene. Ellie was raised at a Fedra boarding school. Marlene re-enter her life when she got infected and discovered her immunity.

That's the show. Ellie doesn't know Marlene until her immunity is discovered.

In the game, Ellie complains to Marlene that she makes her stay in the school. Ellie has known Marlene all her life.

[thwhtGuardian]

Joel knew that Ellie was willing to sacrifice herself. The moment where they saw the giraffes and moment they shared right before being ambushed by the fireflies made that clear to him. Joel doing what he did was clearly a selfish decision. One imo was the better one in the long run.

As I said, that's the moral quandary. Is it selfish? Is it for the best? There's room to see both ways which makes it interesting.

A guy with his back against the wall and no other options trying to protect someone he loves? No real moral dilemma there.

[Adam Allen]

I don't think Joel was wrong in killing the people who were surrendering. He's been surviving in a hellscape for 20 years. It would be dumb of him to let them live as it will give them a chance to get back at him later. That was case for him and Ellie in their encounter at the university. Had he let them live they likely would have tracked them to Jackson.

The Fireflies are not a lesser evil in my eyes. From what I remember from the Riley episode the fireflies bombings would often put civilians in danger and they treat it as collateral damage. Fireflies don't have any moral objections to recruiting children. Their mission statement of wanting to restore the world to how it was is ridiculous when it's beyond repair for that goal to be realistically possible. Given how divisive they are to the general public of the setting they are not as effective as they should be.

Everyone's opinions will likely be different on this bit, as we can really only speculate, but I really doubt the Fireflies would have come after Joel ... or at least, when they did inevitably show up at Tommy's compound, it would be to try to reason with them about working on a cure.

No, thwhtGuardian, Joel couldn't run to the police about the Fireflies, but it was also abundantly clear that he didn't need to. The entire storyline showed over and over that Joel was a killing machine who literally mowed down armies single-handedly. Nobody who actually knows who he is is going to try to fight Joel, if they don't have to.

But no, they also weren't going to just let the idea of a cure go, which is again where I thought a more interesting story path would have continued.

As I said, that's the moral quandary. Is it selfish? Is it for the best? There's room to see both ways which makes it interesting.

A guy with his back against the wall and no other options trying to protect someone he loves? No real moral dilemma there.

Again what made this a great climax to the story; up to this point, all of his killing had been "no other options, to protect someone he loves", so while making for a fun game and interesting show, there had been no moral dilemma in killing zombies, or humans who would for a certainty kill them, for selfish/greedy/petty reasons.

But had she been awake, Ellie would not have been on board with slaughtering the Fireflies, especially Marlene. And while I am fully acknowledging that in his place, I would likely have done probably the same thing, I am agreeing with you that this is what would have made for the interesting moral quandary, that I feel like was abandoned in the second game.

Even if you believe killing every Firefly was ethical, was completely disregarding Ellie's moral autonomy also ethical? Because he knew full well he was doing that, Marlene even pointed it out. And yeah, we can point out that she was a traumatized kid, but guess what -- even traumatized kids tend to want at least their moral autonomy to be acknowledged, and they do deserve that, as much as anyone else. After all of the responsibility and struggle Ellie had been through, all of the strength and resilience and intelligence -- in the end, he chose not to respect her ability to think or decide -- like, if he'd even just left Marlene alive, he could have explained to her what happened, and they'd likely have months to years before the Fireflies caught up, for Ellie to think about it.

It was a great ending, but the sequel abandons the concept entirely. More's the pity.

[Immortal Weapon]

Everyone's opinions will likely be different on this bit, as we can really only speculate, but I really doubt the Fireflies would have come after Joel ... or at least, when they did inevitably show up at Tommy's compound, it would be to try to reason with them about working on a cure.

After how Joel killed the majority of their people including their leader and one of their surgeons I don't see how they would be in the mood to talk things out. Joel did was a betrayal. That can't be taken lightly.

No, thwhtGuardian, Joel couldn't run to the police about the Fireflies, but it was also abundantly clear that he didn't need to. The entire storyline showed over and over that Joel was a killing machine who literally mowed down armies single-handedly. Nobody who actually knows who he is is going to try to fight Joel, if they don't have to.

Joel is a killing machine. But we also see moments where Joel had close calls and he was only saved by blind luck. Joel was growing increasingly anxious over his ability to protect Ellie which was getting worse once he started to care about her. He was getting panic attacks over it. He knew he was one slipped up from dying.

[inisideguy]

I watched the first season. It was well done. But I guess for me this genre is worn the heck out. But for those who enjoy it I say good for ya!

[ChrisIII]

I watched the first season. It was well done. But I guess for me this genre is worn the heck out. But for those who enjoy it I say good for ya!

The first game came out in 2013 where zombie-mania was more of a thing-the peak of Walking Dead, World War Z, Warm Bodies, etc.

[JBatmanFan05]

I watched the first season. It was well done. But I guess for me this genre is worn the heck out. But for those who enjoy it I say good for ya!

I've long been zombied out, I still have some PTSD about it lol, some real resistance. And I still managed to really enjoy Season 1 in part because of the climate change fungus distinguishing element. Plus for me the ending of the season really brought the rest of it home. The ending reminds the viewer that the fungal zombies and civilizational collapse are more or less just a setting in service of these traumatized and conflicted characters still deciding how they're gonna live at the end of the world. The sometimes thin lines that can stand between genuine philosophical principles (or human logic) and selfish emotions. The dark side of love, how a sense of love can pervert and cause people to kill, deceive, etc.

Now The Wire and Game of Thrones I think had more interesting and subversive themes it explored or tried to, but I think Last of Us here still can bring a lot to the table in future seasons.

[Tuck]

even traumatized kids tend to want at least their moral autonomy to be acknowledged, and they do deserve that, as much as anyone else.

The PTSD compromised her moral autonomy. We understand this. It's why our laws reflect the necessity of mental competence.

That's not to say it factored into Joel's reasoning. I'm not sure there was reasoning.

[Havok83]

I watched the first season. It was well done. But I guess for me this genre is worn the heck out. But for those who enjoy it I say good for ya!

The first season at least heavily downplayed the zombielike elements compared to the game in favor of more character driven scripts