Stephanie Brown: Batgirl, Spoiler, and Robin Appreciation 2023!

[WebLurker]

I was talking about Gotham Knights the game not WFA

Must've missed that. Still, that seems like quite the molehill to make a mountain out of.

Also it didn't say "the relationship didn't work out but they had good times together while it lasted" but it said "they maybe weren't the right one for each other in the long run" after gushing over how Timber is super awesome which given that she is his long lasting love interest and how badly the breakup was done feels like throwing it under the bus and the "positive" they added felt like a bare attempt to placate Timsteph fans.

Was paraphrasing from memory. Also, once again, the point of the article was about Tim/Bernard, so of course that would be the focus. It does seem to be something that the brand as a whole is embracing (Titans and the Wayne Family Adventures comics are using it, after all), so DC would give it a positive focus in the marketing.

They could have said "while they are not together now, we still have a lot to love about their relationship" instead of implying they weren't possibly the right one for each other in the long run.

Well, technically, if you break up with someone and start dating someone else, that relationship wasn't right for them long-term. Kinda seems like just stating the obvious about the current status quo. Saying this as much to myself as anyone, but I have heard the perspective that different comics runs should be viewed as a soft reboot that, based on the authors' vision, might take things in a different direction than intended. The current run's status quo seems to be that Tim/Steph didn't fit, the relationship didn't last, and he found someone else with whom it works. That'll be canon unless a future author decides they want them back together and crafts a narrative that makes that work. It sucks if you don't like it, but I don't think we can assume that the writers are trying to piss us off or have an agenda behind everything.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Must've missed that. Still, that seems like quite the molehill to make a mountain out of.



Was paraphrasing from memory. Also, once again, the point of the article was about Tim/Bernard, so of course that would be the focus. It does seem to be something that the brand as a whole is embracing (Titans and the Wayne Family Adventures comics are using it, after all), so DC would give it a positive focus in the marketing.



Well, technically, if you break up with someone and start dating someone else, that relationship wasn't right for them long-term. Kinda seems like just stating the obvious about the current status quo. Saying this as much to myself as anyone, but I have heard the perspective that different comics runs should be viewed as a soft reboot that, based on the authors' vision, might take things in a different direction than intended. The current run's status quo seems to be that Tim/Steph didn't fit, the relationship didn't last, and he found someone else with whom it works. That'll be canon unless a future author decides they want them back together and crafts a narrative that makes that work. It sucks if you don't like it, but I don't think we can assume that the writers are trying to piss us off or have an agenda behind everything.

The GK is part of this trend where Tim's interest and history with women is being downplayed. Like WFA only mentions him "dating girls and messing up" and Titans he has shown no interest/history with women at all.

The focus on Timber is fine but no need to throw Timsteph under the bus like with that comment. Like I said they have a long meta history and even have ended up together pre-flashpoint via convergence and given the bad break up and is being relatively new immediately implying his long term love interest "wasn't the right one in the long run" is just unnecessary when something simple as "they are not together" would suffice. It's not an agenda it's clear DC is trying to throw Timsteph under the bus as even issue 1 of Tim's solo says he was 'settling' before Bernard.

[Digifiend]

The hair makes me think it is her

The lighting means we can't tell what hair colour she has (all we know is it's long, which rules out Cass), it could be Babs or Steph. I assumed Steph though.

Is the implication supposed to be the Batgirls took them out dancing to celebrate their coming out together as a couple?

No, it was one Batgirl and Batwoman.

So I saw a scan on a WFA spoilers:

Of Stephanie with Harper about to eat a burger. Does this mean Vegetarian Steph is over and she's back to eating whatever she wants? I hope so! Nothing is better then a burger! That's how Batgirls should end, with Steph renouncing the vegetarian way and eating a giant burger to symbolize it mwahaha!

end of spoilers

spoilers:

You've never heard of the McPlant? You can get vegetarian burgers now that look like normal ones.

end of spoilers

[WebLurker]

The GK is part of this trend where Tim's interest and history with women is being downplayed. Like WFA only mentions him "dating girls and messing up" and Titans he has shown no interest/history with women at all.

Law of Conservation of Detail? In the case of Wayne Family, we're starting at a time when Tim is dating Bernard, so it's not really relevant who his last ex was, esp. since the strip is an episodic one. Also, not really sure what the issue is for this one, given that we're showing that Tim and Steph are close friends in this continuity and, not counting a cameo later on, Bernard has basically disappeared after the strip about him and Tim going out on a date. Maybe it's not Tim/Steph shipping material, but I would think that, in the broader multiverse, a universe where they never dated but were trusted friends would be preferable to what's being done in the main comics' one (e.g. the implications that Steph wasn't right for Tim and they were "settling" and all that).

The focus on Timber is fine but no need to throw Timsteph under the bus like with that comment. Like I said they have a long meta history and even have ended up together pre-flashpoint via convergence and given the bad break up and is being relatively new immediately implying his long term love interest "wasn't the right one in the long run" is just unnecessary when something simple as "they are not together" would suffice. It's not an agenda it's clear DC is trying to throw Timsteph under the bus as even issue 1 of Tim's solo says he was 'settling' before Bernard.

So you think that DC as a whole is invested in making Bernard Tim's main love interest and it's not just Fitzmartin?

[ohfellow]

So you think that DC as a whole is invested in making Bernard Tim's main love interest and it's not just Fitzmartin?

A thing like that cannot be up to a writer. She got approval from her editor.

Same thing with putting the blame on Bendis to age Jon up - a massive change like that, at the time, had DiDio's blessing.

And Taylor's sexuality change for Jon - for that, it has been said that it blindsided higher up executives at DC, but had his immediate editors blessings.

Writers don't get to just make any change they like, without at least an editor approving it, and their boss (the Group Editor) as well.

That's not to say that every change that is made is a wise one. The changes made to Power Girl recently are, in my opinion, ridiculously stupid! But Tini Howard's editor approved.

Jessica Chen worked for a really long time with Cloonan and Conrad - and Corona, who they stuck with to the bitter end, integral to the vision they had for how the book should look), to get Batgirls out the door. She's said as much, plus consider the long gap between the initial backup stories and the debut of the book), getting it to the point where her boss, Ben Abernathy, approved. And every bit of the style and the characterizations (Babs=an older, less physically capable mother figure, Cass=quietly confident and supremely skilled, Steph=always in trouble, always messing up, always rescued by Cass, to the point of even dying and being revived by Cass) were approved every step of the way. Chen even wrote sections of it - the chit-chat between her and the writers. And they mutually backed away from those intrusions in recent issues, as the tone got more serious and the authorial and editorial intrusions really moderated. (Too late to help.)

I have wandered from the question, but yes of course DC is invested in it and is not going to change this any time soon - in fact, surely never.

It is easy to imagine that they would revisit and revise the relationship with Stephanie, and explore her feelings about the breakup more realistically. Because that's secondary. It depends on whether they decide Stephanie is not just a validating prop for Tim, but is a self-respecting character who reacts the way a real person would. (But they have pushed Steph so far down that they may no longer see her as worth more than being a prop. I'm talking about the main DC comics, not the characterization in WFA let alone that Gotham TV show - where she is a smart hacker, but just tried to be physical and failed).

Steph was appearing in other books as much as Cass, one year and two years ago. Not anymore! Batgirls assassinated her character, wrote her as pretty useless, immature and lacking in confidence (at least self-aware to know that she wasn't competent enough, in this portrayal, to be deluded into confidence), and it worked - that's who she is now. Maybe she'll continue to show up a little in Joker, but I think they pushed her so far down that she may not appear much for some time to come. It seems to me that Cass is being written as the primary Batgirl.

But I hope I'm wrong.

[Konja7]

Steph was appearing in other books as much as Cass, one year and two years ago. Not anymore! Batgirls assassinated her character, wrote her as pretty useless, immature and lacking in confidence (at least self-aware to know that she wasn't competent enough, in this portrayal, to be deluded into confidence), and it worked - that's who she is now. Maybe she'll continue to show up a little in Joker, but I think they pushed her so far down that she may not appear much for some time to come. It seems to me that Cass is being written as the primary Batgirl.

Honestly, I think you're too hard on Batgirls portrayal of Stephanie. I've understand you don't like the way Stephanie is portrayed, but she is competent enough in this comics. Honestly, I think Stephanie personality is the best portrayed in Batgirls comic.

Also, you exagerate the "harm" Batgirls could make to Stephanie's reputation (her popularity doesn't seem to be affected). She is still one of the Batgirls after the book has been cancelled.

Cassandra as Batgirl will have a role in Spirit World, but that's likely due to her Asian heritage. I really doubt Cassandra or Stephanie will be the primary Batgirl again.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

A thing like that cannot be up to a writer. She got approval from her editor.

Same thing with putting the blame on Bendis to age Jon up - a massive change like that, at the time, had DiDio's blessing.

And Taylor's sexuality change for Jon - for that, it has been said that it blindsided higher up executives at DC, but had his immediate editors blessings.

Writers don't get to just make any change they like, without at least an editor approving it, and their boss (the Group Editor) as well.

That's not to say that every change that is made is a wise one. The changes made to Power Girl recently are, in my opinion, ridiculously stupid! But Tini Howard's editor approved.

Jessica Chen worked for a really long time with Cloonan and Conrad - and Corona, who they stuck with to the bitter end, integral to the vision they had for how the book should look), to get Batgirls out the door. She's said as much, plus consider the long gap between the initial backup stories and the debut of the book), getting it to the point where her boss, Ben Abernathy, approved. And every bit of the style and the characterizations (Babs=an older, less physically capable mother figure, Cass=quietly confident and supremely skilled, Steph=always in trouble, always messing up, always rescued by Cass, to the point of even dying and being revived by Cass) were approved every step of the way. Chen even wrote sections of it - the chit-chat between her and the writers. And they mutually backed away from those intrusions in recent issues, as the tone got more serious and the authorial and editorial intrusions really moderated. (Too late to help.)

I have wandered from the question, but yes of course DC is invested in it and is not going to change this any time soon - in fact, surely never.

It is easy to imagine that they would revisit and revise the relationship with Stephanie, and explore her feelings about the breakup more realistically. Because that's secondary. It depends on whether they decide Stephanie is not just a validating prop for Tim, but is a self-respecting character who reacts the way a real person would. (But they have pushed Steph so far down that they may no longer see her as worth more than being a prop. I'm talking about the main DC comics, not the characterization in WFA let alone that Gotham TV show - where she is a smart hacker, but just tried to be physical and failed).

Steph was appearing in other books as much as Cass, one year and two years ago. Not anymore! Batgirls assassinated her character, wrote her as pretty useless, immature and lacking in confidence (at least self-aware to know that she wasn't competent enough, in this portrayal, to be deluded into confidence), and it worked - that's who she is now. Maybe she'll continue to show up a little in Joker, but I think they pushed her so far down that she may not appear much for some time to come. It seems to me that Cass is being written as the primary Batgirl.

But I hope I'm wrong.

I dunno, the sales of Tim's solo and lack of enthusiasm for Bernard might make them change their minds and DC before has tried to get rid of Steph as Tim's love interest and failed as well.

[ComicNoobie]

A thing like that cannot be up to a writer. She got approval from her editor.

Same thing with putting the blame on Bendis to age Jon up - a massive change like that, at the time, had DiDio's blessing.

And Taylor's sexuality change for Jon - for that, it has been said that it blindsided higher up executives at DC, but had his immediate editors blessings.

Writers don't get to just make any change they like, without at least an editor approving it, and their boss (the Group Editor) as well.

That's not to say that every change that is made is a wise one. The changes made to Power Girl recently are, in my opinion, ridiculously stupid! But Tini Howard's editor approved.

Jessica Chen worked for a really long time with Cloonan and Conrad - and Corona, who they stuck with to the bitter end, integral to the vision they had for how the book should look), to get Batgirls out the door. She's said as much, plus consider the long gap between the initial backup stories and the debut of the book), getting it to the point where her boss, Ben Abernathy, approved. And every bit of the style and the characterizations (Babs=an older, less physically capable mother figure, Cass=quietly confident and supremely skilled, Steph=always in trouble, always messing up, always rescued by Cass, to the point of even dying and being revived by Cass) were approved every step of the way. Chen even wrote sections of it - the chit-chat between her and the writers. And they mutually backed away from those intrusions in recent issues, as the tone got more serious and the authorial and editorial intrusions really moderated. (Too late to help.)

I have wandered from the question, but yes of course DC is invested in it and is not going to change this any time soon - in fact, surely never.

It is easy to imagine that they would revisit and revise the relationship with Stephanie, and explore her feelings about the breakup more realistically. Because that's secondary. It depends on whether they decide Stephanie is not just a validating prop for Tim, but is a self-respecting character who reacts the way a real person would. (But they have pushed Steph so far down that they may no longer see her as worth more than being a prop. I'm talking about the main DC comics, not the characterization in WFA let alone that Gotham TV show - where she is a smart hacker, but just tried to be physical and failed).

Steph was appearing in other books as much as Cass, one year and two years ago. Not anymore! Batgirls assassinated her character, wrote her as pretty useless, immature and lacking in confidence (at least self-aware to know that she wasn't competent enough, in this portrayal, to be deluded into confidence), and it worked - that's who she is now. Maybe she'll continue to show up a little in Joker, but I think they pushed her so far down that she may not appear much for some time to come. It seems to me that Cass is being written as the primary Batgirl.

But I hope I'm wrong.

Reading this made me sad. I want this best for Steph's future

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I just realized all of Stephanie's interactions with Tim's personal life in his solo have been about Bernard.........ugh

[Celgress]

Still my favorite:

Mine as well.

[Majesty]

A thing like that cannot be up to a writer. She got approval from her editor.

Same thing with putting the blame on Bendis to age Jon up - a massive change like that, at the time, had DiDio's blessing.

And Taylor's sexuality change for Jon - for that, it has been said that it blindsided higher up executives at DC, but had his immediate editors blessings.

Writers don't get to just make any change they like, without at least an editor approving it, and their boss (the Group Editor) as well.

That's not to say that every change that is made is a wise one. The changes made to Power Girl recently are, in my opinion, ridiculously stupid! But Tini Howard's editor approved.

Jessica Chen worked for a really long time with Cloonan and Conrad - and Corona, who they stuck with to the bitter end, integral to the vision they had for how the book should look), to get Batgirls out the door. She's said as much, plus consider the long gap between the initial backup stories and the debut of the book), getting it to the point where her boss, Ben Abernathy, approved. And every bit of the style and the characterizations (Babs=an older, less physically capable mother figure, Cass=quietly confident and supremely skilled, Steph=always in trouble, always messing up, always rescued by Cass, to the point of even dying and being revived by Cass) were approved every step of the way. Chen even wrote sections of it - the chit-chat between her and the writers. And they mutually backed away from those intrusions in recent issues, as the tone got more serious and the authorial and editorial intrusions really moderated. (Too late to help.)

I have wandered from the question, but yes of course DC is invested in it and is not going to change this any time soon - in fact, surely never.

It is easy to imagine that they would revisit and revise the relationship with Stephanie, and explore her feelings about the breakup more realistically. Because that's secondary. It depends on whether they decide Stephanie is not just a validating prop for Tim, but is a self-respecting character who reacts the way a real person would. (But they have pushed Steph so far down that they may no longer see her as worth more than being a prop. I'm talking about the main DC comics, not the characterization in WFA let alone that Gotham TV show - where she is a smart hacker, but just tried to be physical and failed).

Steph was appearing in other books as much as Cass, one year and two years ago. Not anymore! Batgirls assassinated her character, wrote her as pretty useless, immature and lacking in confidence (at least self-aware to know that she wasn't competent enough, in this portrayal, to be deluded into confidence), and it worked - that's who she is now. Maybe she'll continue to show up a little in Joker, but I think they pushed her so far down that she may not appear much for some time to come. It seems to me that Cass is being written as the primary Batgirl.

But I hope I'm wrong.

We must be reading two completely different comics. Stephanie's run in Batgirls has been one of my favorites of her character thus far, and I enjoyed the confrontation with her father tremendously.

[WebLurker]

A thing like that cannot be up to a writer. She got approval from her editor.

Same thing with putting the blame on Bendis to age Jon up - a massive change like that, at the time, had DiDio's blessing.

And Taylor's sexuality change for Jon - for that, it has been said that it blindsided higher up executives at DC, but had his immediate editors blessings.

Writers don't get to just make any change they like, without at least an editor approving it, and their boss (the Group Editor) as well.

That's not to say that every change that is made is a wise one. The changes made to Power Girl recently are, in my opinion, ridiculously stupid! But Tini Howard's editor approved.

Obviously, the Powers That Be had to okay it in the first place. Meant more is Bernard being the boyfriend something that they're just okaying for Fitzmartain, or do they want it to last long-term after she's done?

I have wandered from the question, but yes of course DC is invested in it and is not going to change this any time soon - in fact, surely never.

Guess we'll see (I was thinking the odds were even money, but that's me.)

It is easy to imagine that they would revisit and revise the relationship with Stephanie, and explore her feelings about the breakup more realistically. Because that's secondary. It depends on whether they decide Stephanie is not just a validating prop for Tim, but is a self-respecting character who reacts the way a real person would. (But they have pushed Steph so far down that they may no longer see her as worth more than being a prop. I'm talking about the main DC comics, not the characterization in WFA let alone that Gotham TV show - where she is a smart hacker, but just tried to be physical and failed).

Steph was appearing in other books as much as Cass, one year and two years ago. Not anymore! Batgirls assassinated her character, wrote her as pretty useless, immature and lacking in confidence (at least self-aware to know that she wasn't competent enough, in this portrayal, to be deluded into confidence), and it worked - that's who she is now. Maybe she'll continue to show up a little in Joker, but I think they pushed her so far down that she may not appear much for some time to come. It seems to me that Cass is being written as the primary Batgirl.

But I hope I'm wrong.

Do not get the "Batgirls ruined her argument at all, to be honest. Heck, if anything I'd argue the series shows that there are people at DC who see her as a character in her own right and not just a prop for another character.

I dunno, the sales of Tim's solo and lack of enthusiasm for Bernard might make them change their minds and DC before has tried to get rid of Steph as Tim's love interest and failed as well.

That does assume that Steph couldn't be replaced under the right circumstances (or that DC doesn't follow the playbook of the Spider-Man offices at Marvel and just do what they want regardless of what the fans want). I mean, Bernard is getting the synergy and being added into adaptations as the love interest, something they've never done with Steph.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Obviously, the Powers That Be had to okay it in the first place. Meant more is Bernard being the boyfriend something that they're just okaying for Fitzmartain, or do they want it to last long-term after she's done?



Guess we'll see (I was thinking the odds were even money, but that's me.)



Do not get the "Batgirls ruined her argument at all, to be honest. Heck, if anything I'd argue the series shows that there are people at DC who see her as a character in her own right and not just a prop for another character.



That does assume that Steph couldn't be replaced under the right circumstances (or that DC doesn't follow the playbook of the Spider-Man offices at Marvel and just do what they want regardless of what the fans want). I mean, Bernard is getting the synergy and being added into adaptations as the love interest, something they've never done with Steph.

Yeah but syngery doesn't and adaptions don't always mean a mainstay/replacements. Like in two adaptions Oliver Queen ended up with a blonde hacker OC (Chloe and Felicity) yet it hasn't transferred to the comics. They had synergy with TimCassie but that never went anywhere

[Majesty]

Obviously, the Powers That Be had to okay it in the first place. Meant more is Bernard being the boyfriend something that they're just okaying for Fitzmartain, or do they want it to last long-term after she's done?



Guess we'll see (I was thinking the odds were even money, but that's me.)



Do not get the "Batgirls ruined her argument at all, to be honest. Heck, if anything I'd argue the series shows that there are people at DC who see her as a character in her own right and not just a prop for another character.



That does assume that Steph couldn't be replaced under the right circumstances (or that DC doesn't follow the playbook of the Spider-Man offices at Marvel and just do what they want regardless of what the fans want). I mean, Bernard is getting the synergy and being added into adaptations as the love interest, something they've never done with Steph.

Exactly!!!

[WebLurker]

Yeah but syngery doesn't and adaptions don't always mean a mainstay/replacements. Like in two adaptions Oliver Queen ended up with a blonde hacker OC (Chloe and Felicity) yet it hasn't transferred to the comics.

That's an example of a change in the adaptation not becoming incorporated into the source material, not an adaptation "normalizing" a newer element of the source material. The New 52 adaptations not making Superman/Wonder Woman stick could be a more relevant example if you want to argue that we should assume that Tim/Bernard cannot or will not last. (In any event, Batman is a prime example of how adaptational changes often do become mainstays.)

Also, certainly not saying that Tim/Bernard becoming the new default is a given (too many variables). Just saying that I think DC could successfully make them the OTP if they wanted to (the recent synergy and Steph not being solidified as "the One," a la Lois Lane, Catwoman, Linda Park, Mary Jane Watson, etc. thanks to a lack of presence in adaptations and becoming well defined outside her original role as Tim's love interest). It's the wait-and-see phase of how this turns out.

They had synergy with TimCassie but that never went anywhere

I think it matters more how committed DC is to making Tim/Bernard a thing now than it does how successful previous love interest characters for him were.