Dark Web: X-Men #3 Review *spoilers*

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Are you seriously eluding to Jean (and, Scott by affiliation) being responsible for Madelyne's cruel fate? First, from Mister Sinister's cloning vats to the moment Jean sacrificed herself in the Blue Area of the Moon, Madelyne was little more than an unconscious mind that Minister Sinister planned to use and discard after she seduced Scott into getting her pregnant.

Second, when Mister Sinister's machinations hit a snag and Madelyne discovered that her likeness and childhood memories were in fact those of Jean Grey's Mister Sinister decided to '86 his test-tube creation and cut his losses to avoid being discovered. IMHO, Madelyne's full integration with her template and bodily demise at the end of Inferno should have officially been the proper end of her story but nooo, Marvel had to resurrect and burn her beyond recognition too



IIRC, Madelyne had already started to corrupt the X-men well before she even turned into the Goblin Queen in UX-Men #242. I'm fairly sure Maddie telepathically instigated an affair with Alex forcing him to serve as Goblin Prince to her Goblin Queen persona after she was corrupted by S'ym (and N'astirh).

Mechanically, they are responsible, OTP and all that.

Someone suggested bringing back the O5. Well, you can't have Jean Grey simultaneously existing and not tied to Cyclops even today, in these relatively modern times, so just imagine 40 years ago. So the question became, "how do we get rid of the current love interest so Cyclops can have a different love interest?"

We should ask ourselves if Jean is truly genetically superior to Emma since both Jean and Jean's clone died from this question, but Emma has survived it unscathed lolol

[Triniking1234]

Why does everyone hold this against the character like she wasn't being manipulated by magical demons and going through an incredible amount of psychological trauma at the time? It doesn't excuse it but it does add context. It's very interesting which characters have their bad behavior held against them, and which skate on by unscathed. Scott abandoned his wife, Jean was hooking up with a married man (Oh no, here comes Mercury with some scans), but Maddie is the bad one.

Illyana was going through the same thing but she's one of the heroes of the story.
Cry me a river over this red head trying to hand over New York to Satan to get back at TWO people.

[davetvs]

It's almost like different people respond to traumatic situations differently. Who'da thunk? Not you, certainly.

[Triniking1234]

Even if readers take that into account, why would that stop them from viewing Maddie as a villain? It's not like they gave her an out like they did with Jean during Dark Phoenix and Harry Osborn over in the Spidey books.

[Havok83]

It's almost like different people respond to traumatic situations differently. Who'da thunk? Not you, certainly.

yeah and the one that wasnt trying to actively murder innocent people is the one that gets more sympathy. Maddie has chosen violence almost everytime since Inferno so that doesnt fly. And that was without magical demonic corruption. Going forward may be the start of something different for her but she has lacked remorse for what she has done in the past nor has she sought redemption for it. By comparison, we've seen Jean constantly haunted by her actions while DP, taking responsibility for that and wanting to do better bc she knows what she is capable.

[Agent Grayson]

No matter what trauma Maddie had been through, it doesn't excuse her endangering the lives of millions of people to make herself feel better.

[EmeraldGladiator]

I know I should practice what I preach about responding to those who post in bad faith, and generally I think it is best not to take the bait, but I believe when Jean and Scott were intimate in X-factor (was it around issue 25/26??) was after they believed Maddie and Nate to have died (X-factor 13-ish). Of course they were not dead, but Scott and Jean did not know this .. plus I feel like at that point Scott and Maddie were sufficiently separated (just not legally). I have every issue of X-factor with the O5 but I'm not home to check, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. I know it annoys some, but a few of us do try to be factual and use the source material (I'm sure all the academics here can relate).

The Maddie and Nate Grey relationship was definitely wild. Some have speculated that was in part why we got the Queen Jean retcon but wouldn't that be much worse (plus we don't know when exactly Maddie was replaced). Yikes, lots of soapy drama for sure.

Plus, though we can explain away Maddie's actions (it has explanatory value that she was victimized and all the demon stuff), it shouldn't take away the consequences that she tried to kill her son. I argued this once with a certain podcaster that is a big Maddie fan. I've worked in human services and the criminal justice system for 15 years. Trust me if you try to kill your child your parental rights are going to be terminated. This includes folks who may have mental health issues or attempt to provide justification for the violence toward their kids (I do realize Maddie's situation isn't real life but I'm just saying so don't come for me).

I think a lot of the difference of opinion on the subject of Maddy during the Outback/Inferno era comes from where your most vivid memories of that storyline come from. To my recollection TPTB were like we want a book with the O5 and are bringing Jean back, but Scott already is married to a look a like...Make it happen it did. A red headed body was found and baby Cable missing, easy peasy on to X-Factor. Claremont however being a lover of a good soap angle decided what if that body wasn't Maddy and ressurected her. This created major problems for the Simonson's because if Maddy is alive then Scott is a even bigger jerk. The reason I bring this up is because of that Maddy is protrayed totally different in X-Factor as she is in Uncanny. In Uncanny Maddy is nuanced, her motivations explained her story tragic. Her everything is taken from her and she decides to burn it all down. On X-Factor she is protrayed as a one note revenge seeking agent of hate. Though Jean's clone she doesn't even resemble her in the least she is drawn in an unattractive matter. Even the, he called out to Jean, sacrifice the brat stuff was all in X-Factor because in X-men she was all about finding her son. The Simonson's were put in an impossible situation because 40% of the book they ran would come off looking quite bad IF Maddy wasn't painted a certain way. I being more into Uncanny thant X-Factor I saw it the other way. After Maddy's death the Simonson's tried to appease the Maddy fans by making her memories a part of Jean. I personally hated that. I like Alex and Maddy herself believe she is her own person just like Cable isn't Stryfe and Peter isn't Ben.

[Mercury]

Why does everyone hold this against the character like she wasn't being manipulated by magical demons and going through an incredible amount of psychological trauma at the time? It doesn't excuse it but it does add context. It's very interesting which characters have their bad behavior held against them, and which skate on by unscathed. Scott abandoned his wife, Jean was hooking up with a married man (Oh no, here comes Mercury with some scans), but Maddie is the bad one.

You're a real pip! lmao! :hug: As MechaJeanix pointed out, Jean and Scott became intimate months after Madelyne was believed dead. As far as she was concerned, she was "hooking up" with a widower. Also, you continue skirting the fact that Jean admonished Scott when she found out he abandoned his family and repeatedly urged him to go back to them while refusing his advances. Not to mention that she sacrificed her soul to Mephisto to save Madelyne and Nathan and to ease Scott's guilt. #NoScansNeeded

It's because we are supposed to see Cyclops/Jean as this magically destined and rightful thing. Maddie until last week was a villain standing against the One True Pair (barf). Misogyny, reverent adherence to nostalgia, and dedication to the sanctity of the OTP kept her from moving beyond that. Let's see if this new status quo is at all protected for any significant length of time before reversion, Marvel Girl-style.

I love how Claremont recently (~6 months ago) elucidated Jean and Scott's and Logan and Mariko's relationships:

“She passionately loves Scott, he passionately loves [Mariko], but [in] 150 years at the max, both...Mariko and Scott are dead...Logan and Jean go on forever. They are core elements in the nature of the omniverse.”

For those interested in viewing this part of the interview, fast forward the video below to 33:15:



That said, I've come to love Jean and Scott being together again. For awhile, during the the beginning of the Krakoa era, I hated it. However, after putting their relationship into perspective, especially considering the leaps in development that were made to it during the time-displacement era and Jean's recent dalliance with Logan, it feels right. I think after Jean signed up to join Krakoa, she was still reeling from the events following her return in Phoenix Resurrection. She had her resurrection and time-displacement and all that she had learned during both to contend with, including learning about Scott's actions and death and that her entire family had been murdered due to her actions as Dark Phoenix. Plus, Xavier's betrayal (see Astonishing X-Men Annual #1) and her wars with Cassandra Nova and Nate Grey must have left her burnt out and disillusioned.

I think the above caused her to both regress in terms of her comportment and how she identified herself but also to indulge in her love for and attraction to Logan. In one way, it's as if she was trying to escape the reality of what she had been through leading up to Krakoa and perhaps pushing away what her instincts had and have been telling her about Xavier. In another way, however, she was breaking free from the restrictions of her marriage and doing what she wanted for a change. Clearly, to me at least, she exhibited the confusion and contradictory behavior of someone in the throes of grappling with denial and dissociation while processing trauma. The beginning of the Krakoan era is a fascinating period in Jean's life that is punctuated more by the silences than by what's being said. Ultimately, she realized she and Scott or more than just lovers; they're best friends. Hickman and Duggan made me realize that.

Okay when did this happen?
--jthree

I know I should practice what I preach about responding to those who post in bad faith, and generally I think it is best not to take the bait, but I believe when Jean and Scott were intimate in X-factor (was it around issue 25/26??) was after they believed Maddie and Nate to have died (X-factor 13-ish). Of course they were not dead, but Scott and Jean did not know this .. plus I feel like at that point Scott and Maddie were sufficiently separated (just not legally). I have every issue of X-factor with the O5 but I'm not home to check, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. I know it annoys some, but a few of us do try to be factual and use the source material (I'm sure all the academics here can relate).

The Maddie and Nate Grey relationship was definitely wild. Some have speculated that was in part why we got the Queen Jean retcon but wouldn't that be much worse (plus we don't know when exactly Maddie was replaced). Yikes, lots of soapy drama for sure.

Plus, though we can explain away Maddie's actions (it has explanatory value that she was victimized and all the demon stuff), it shouldn't take away the consequences that she tried to kill her son. I argued this once with a certain podcaster that is a big Maddie fan. I've worked in human services and the criminal justice system for 15 years. Trust me if you try to kill your child your parental rights are going to be terminated. This includes folks who may have mental health issues or attempt to provide justification for the violence toward their kids (I do realize Maddie's situation isn't real life but I'm just saying so don't come for me).

As always, an insightful post.

Are you seriously eluding to Jean (and, Scott by affiliation) being responsible for Madelyne's cruel fate? First, from Mister Sinister's cloning vats to the moment Jean sacrificed herself in the Blue Area of the Moon, Madelyne was little more than an unconscious mind that Minister Sinister planned to use and discard after she seduced Scott into getting her pregnant.

Second, when Mister Sinister's machinations hit a snag and Madelyne discovered that her likeness and childhood memories were in fact those of Jean Grey's Mister Sinister decided to '86 his test-tube creation and cut his losses to avoid being discovered. IMHO, Madelyne's full integration with her template and bodily demise at the end of Inferno should have officially been the proper end of her story but nooo, Marvel had to resurrect and burn her beyond recognition too

IIRC, Madelyne had already started to corrupt the X-men well before she even turned into the Goblin Queen in UX-Men #242. I'm fairly sure Maddie telepathically instigated an affair with Alex forcing him to serve as Goblin Prince to her Goblin Queen persona after she was corrupted by S'ym (and N'astirh).

You make some good points, but I think Madelyne should be given the benefit of the doubt. I dislike it when she, or Jean as Dark Phoenix, for that matter, is blamed and villainized without consideration for the pain, abuse, and trauma she endured. She suffered, to use the legal term Claremont used to describe Jean's mental state as Dark Phoenix, "diminished capacity."

[EmeraldGladiator]

No matter what trauma Maddie had been through, it doesn't excuse her endangering the lives of millions of people to make herself feel better.

As has Arcangel, as has Scott as has Magneto as has Peter as has ect, ect, ect. I can't think of an X-man that hasn't done some very unexcusable things it is part of being an X-man or New Mutant see Karma some for a less valid reason than being corrupted by a demon right after finding out everything they thought they knew about themselves was a lie, oh and your husband left you for his ex.

[JB]

On the subject of Dark Web, anyone know if anything pertinent happened in Amazing Spider-Man #18 today?

[Mercury]

On the subject of Dark Web, anyone know if anything pertinent happened in Amazing Spider-Man #18 today?

Madelyne tries to reason with Ben, crediting Jean with changing her stance and perspective. However, Hallow's Eve steals Madelyne's scythe, throws her off a cliff, and gives the scythe to Ben, who turns into King Chasm.

[Mercury]

Of course, this the climax, so they have to up the stakes, but I'm praying Ben gets a happy ending too.

[JB]

Holy crap! Thank you, Mercury!

[Triniking1234]

So if someone takes Illyana's Soul Sword, they get her magic-related powers and demon control powers? Cuz that's what Wells is implying.

[Mercury]

Holy crap! Thank you, Mercury!

WAIT! I forgot the best part. Jean is like, "Oop." lol!



Jean does have a long history with Spidey, though—both Peter and Miles.