Resurrection Protocols and Mutant Body Modification

[BobbysWorld]

I'm honestly trying to avoid getting sucked into this particular discourse again, so all I'm gonna say is this:

We all approach reading the same narratives from different POVs, shaped by our own experiences and worldviews. And my objection to the way most of the debates on this topic go down stems entirely from the fact that - whether people mean to or not - a lot of ppl seem to approach this topic from the angle of 'any disabled character would obviously want to be 'fixed' because they can't possibly be leading their best life while disabled, and if they claim to be or reject the 'obvious fix' others insist exist, they should need to offer an explanation for why they think their life is fine as is, so their motivations and sincerity can be examined.'

I'm sincerely not trying to assume anything about specific peoples' thoughts or feelings on this matter, whether they are disabled or not, and of course disabled people aren't a monolith - especially considering that 'disabled' is an umbrella that includes both people who have disabilities that DO put a ceiling on their quality of life, as well as people w/disabilities that just require different accommodations or approaches to life, that society's not optimized for - like of COURSE there are going to be drastic differences of opinions here.

All I'm saying is in general terms, the subtext I pointed out above definitely DOES have a strong presence in these arguments. Whether its intended or not, peoples' word choices, analogies, generalizations and assumptions all paint pictures that aren't necessarily a subtext some of you INTEND to put into your posts, but that doesn't mean that the subtext is never there.

And people really need to stop saying that they just want to see some mutants who do choose to 'fix' their disabilities, and ask why its okay for Xavier to do it and not others.....like, PLEASE just stop a beat and recognize that the fact that nobody on this particular forum is running around in threads demanding that Xavier be kept disabled for the sake of representation IS proof that even those of us who like Karma keeping her prosthetic, for instance, recognize that its okay for other mutants to choose differently!

The problem I have is people thinking its reasonable to expect disabled characters be put under a microscope and demand they justify being happy as they are now, and not taking every opportunity to 'fix or better' themselves.....because how does that NOT eventually at some point turn into expecting everyone to keep adjusting themselves to match societal 'norms' more closely and closely until all variations deemed even SLIGHTLY inferior are weeded out?

Why CAN'T there be disabled characters who just....don't feel a need to offer up an explanation for why they seem to be happy and content, and don't think they need to be able-bodied to exist as such? Why is your suspension of disbelief - that can accept a terraformed Mars full of thousand year old mutant demon-fighters juts fine - seemingly INCAPABLE of accepting a disabled mutant who doesn't use resurrection to become able-bodied, even if they already have working prosthetics or accommodations that keep them active on the same levels as any other X-Men?

And I'm just asking that you ask yourselves, if you never have before, if you're honestly SURE that this couldn't possibly bleed over into how you view or interact with disabled people, even if you have a disability yourself, since your needs and quality of life and possible accommodations don't necessarily line up with every other disabled person's?

Because if you genuinely can't conceive of a disabled person NOT using the resurrection process to remove their disability, like you can't fathom that without an explanation....aren't you implicitly operating under the assumption that however happy the disabled character is now, whatever their current quality of life.....its only as good as they can make it WITHOUT being able-bodied. That there's a ceiling on how good their life can possibly be, as long as they are disabled.

And can you see how this could be EXTREMELY relevant to disabled people who don't have the options of something like the resurrection process and never will - and how it could very reasonably leave people with the impression that many of you inherently view disabled people with at least some degree of pity, some measure of assuming 'well, how good COULD their life ever really be, if they can't walk or have a prosthetic limb?'

Yes, many disabled people WOULD leap at the option of the resurrection process and that SHOULD be treated as good and valid for them if its what they choose. But the problem is no matter HOW many disabled characters retain their disabilities - whether its one, two, or twenty.....the very angle of perspective that has people demanding an explanation, as though a disabled character has to JUSTIFY their right to exist as disabled, DEFEND the implication that they're already perfectly happy with their body and life the way it is.....that entire line of questioning IS the problem here, because it innately centers able-bodied as the holy grail that any and all disabled characters - and people - should be ASSUMED to always want.

Instead of approaching things from the angle of seeing disabled characters as whole, complete entities as they are while disabled, not just 'subpar but as good as they can be while disabled.'

Because if you can't suspend your disbelief that a disabled person could be happy with their self-image AS a disabled person....how can you say that you're NOT assuming at least people with certain disabilities to be if not lesser than you...at least more pitiable than you, in some respects? And if you're disabled and projecting on a character with a very similar disability to you, what makes your projection onto this character any more or less valid than another disabled person's, so again....isn't....'accepting that they COULD be fine with their disability even if not offering a specific reasoning why, and even if I wouldn't be, in their situation' STILL more accommodating of other viewpoints on this disabled character than 'there's no WAY they could be fine with their disability because I certainly am not or wouldn't be' is?

Anyway. All I have time for in this thread, so either chew on it or pick it apart, I'm honestly too exhausted to keep doing the 'hey could people accept that maybe disabled people don't view our lives as just being about hanging in there and treading water until the day we get a miracle cure' rounds.

And for the record, none of this actually has anything to do with the OPTICS of disability representation. The root of the issue is the default societal PERCEPTIONS of disability, and how people approach anything that deviates from the baseline assumption of 'well of course disabled people all want to get better, no matter how much they claim to be happy with their self-image while disabled.'

Given that the latter assumption is basically the entire foundation of ableism and everything that stems from it.

[Phoenixx9]

Bounce *poink!*

Oh, hahaha. <poink>

Thanks!

It seems he is much better as EGG and hatching the resurrected.

[Grunty]

I just know that by breaking some of the unwritten rules of super hero comics, like providing an easy in universe method for reviving dead people via cloning, Hickman opened a pandora's box of logic issues that are firmly attached to the genre and should never be drawn attention to.

But he did and now we have these discussions which won't find any satisfying answers because it's still based on what ever the writer thinks is right, even if it makes little actual sense from how fiction operates in relation to reality.

[Devaishwarya]

This Sci-Fi/High Fantasy fiction of comic books is not supposed to make actual sense in relation to (our) reality or else it it wouldn't be "fiction"...hence the necessity of a strong and well-developed Suspension of Disbelief. But that's a topic for a different thread.

[BobbysWorld]

Okay, I lied, one last post:

Even decades ago, intentionally optimistic views of the future like Star Trek created characters like Geordie LaForge who used a high-tech visor to accommodate his blindness....instead of just assuming that any society capable of technological teleportation could 'cure' blindness.

Because the goal of any sufficiently advanced society should be to find ways to adjust itself and make accommodations for even those members of society that society isn't built to be innately optimized for.

NOT to find ways to make individuals adjust THEMSELVES to accommodate society's refusal to ever try and optimize the experiences opportunities of even members who don't match its baseline perception of 'normal or able-bodied.'

Science fiction has never precluded the possibility of disabled people even in bright, shiny futures, regardless of how advanced the tech becomes.

[Chris0013]

The situation between Cosmar and Dani is a tricky one as by the end of Ayala's story Dani did realise she wasn't listening so it was written specifically to come across as her being tone deaf.

Masque has been using his gifts in exactly that way in the Madripoor Hospital. So you're right...there other options available, which tells me that those who haven't corrected simply don't want to for whatever reason me as readers might concoct.

I think that is a pretty big leap.

I would say it would be a 'quality of life' type of thing on an individual basis. Someone like Forge or Karma who just has a cybernetic limb or two really has no or at least a very minor QoL adjustment. Someone like Face though...if he were to get all the damage done by his power undone then he would have a massive QoL change for the positive.

There was some discussion about Hellion in the Academy X thread. For example, CGAR had a really nice headcanon that also ties into his past characterization.



I don't have a headcanon, so much as I have a story I like to imagine. Basically, he bonds with Surge's younger brother, who ends up losing a limb in an accident. Julian decides to keep his disability because it'd be a dick move to toss off his disability while his human friend can't. And he decides to become this sort of role model for other amputees, turning what was once a source of shame and difficulty into something that can reach out and inspire others like him.

Having read Hellion since the beginning I assume he would want his arms back. Even if just simply to be able to put his arms around a girl he is dating.

[Daedra]

I though about this for a while but I don’t feel like I should be sharing my personal deliberations, I wish this argument could be discussed without people taking things personally but I have my doubts about it. I’ll just judge what writers do with this plot point and buy comics in accordance with my enjoyment as always.

[marhawkman]

There is that converse aspect to Cable's upgrade as well...the correction being a "downgrade" in terms of originality and uniqueness.
Starsmore is also one of those with a very unique look that many fans love and appreciate. They correct his powers and they take away exactly what made him stand out. Granted Martha didn't become a Floating Brain in a Bowl by her own powers, this was done to her...so the choice to have a body now that she can, is perfectly understandable. As much as we prefer "Martha in a Jar" this makes sense. What would be Jono's reason?

Which raises another point...it has to make sense for the character and ultimately their story.

In Chamber's case he realized on M-Day that having his powers negated nearly killed him. He hated it when it happened. I don't think he's ever LIKED it. Simple stuff like "I no longer have the ability to eat Ice cream" really bugged him.

[Chris0013]

In Chamber's case he realized on M-Day that having his powers negated nearly killed him. He hated it when it happened. I don't think he's ever LIKED it. Simple stuff like "I no longer have the ability to eat Ice cream" really bugged him.

And AoA had a Chamber that had some sort of gizmo that controlled or allowed him to safely use his powers.

[Grunty]

There is that converse aspect to Cable's upgrade as well...the correction being a "downgrade" in terms of originality and uniqueness.
Starsmore is also one of those with a very unique look that many fans love and appreciate. They correct his powers and they take away exactly what made him stand out. (...)

It's like the case of an actress who had a success and undergoes plastic surgery to become better looking by hollywood standards only to realise afterwards that the flaws she had corrected actualy made her stand out.

So that's definetly a point to consider under these circumstances and which might lack proper reasons why it should stick around.

Though we should also consider this often mainly applies to a character's "classic" appearance. Classic meaning the one a character is most famous for, which doesn't necessarily need to be the original (first). Meanwhile when it's a much later alteration to a character's appearance it often doesn't have as much excuse to stay around.

Basicly if Forge's mechanic leg is removed it would remove from his "classic" appearance and even part of his backstory, if the same happens to Karma not many would likely mind, since it isn't part of hers and doesn't add anything interesting to her either.

(...) Granted Martha didn't become a Floating Brain in a Bowl by her own powers, this was done to her...so the choice to have a body now that she can, is perfectly understandable. As much as we prefer "Martha in a Jar" this makes sense. What would be Jono's reason?

Funny enough i feel they found the ideal middle ground for Martha since part of her "classic" and stand out appearance remained, while it's perfectly understandable she would seek to have a full body. I'm more confused it had to take the X-men writer so long for making it happen.

It also helps that she has always been a tertiary character at best. So it's not like it's the look she had for say 50 issues of the best selling "No-Girl" series.

This Sci-Fi/High Fantasy fiction of comic books is not supposed to make actual sense in relation to (our) reality or else it it wouldn't be "fiction"...hence the necessity of a strong and well-developed Suspension of Disbelief. But that's a topic for a different thread.

Hence why it's never good idea to raise too much attention to it. Which is what i feel happend when they introduced the RP and even presented it as some sort of primary solution to physical issues.

No powers? Get killed and be cloned back to life. Deformed appearance? Get killed and be cloned back to life. Headache? Get killed and be cloned back to life.

(...) Science fiction has never precluded the possibility of disabled people even in bright, shiny futures, regardless of how advanced the tech becomes.

True. They just find new ways to explain why they exist.

"This person can't walk normaly even though we can repair regular spinal damage because they suffered a Paraton Dempsy particle effects which causes their spin to constantly repair into a damaged state. So they need to use cybernetic leg braces."

[Devaishwarya]

Hickman and Co. only presented the RPs as a means of cheating death. It wasn't a primary solution to physical issues such as disabilities, etc. That's on some writers who saw the story possibilities...and ran with it. We are the ones who are having this rather deep discussion on the whys and wherefores of it. I can almost guarantee most of the lead writers don't care to delve so far because that was never the main intent.

[Thirteen]

Hickman and Co. only presented the RPs as a means of cheating death. It wasn't a primary solution to physical issues such as disabilities, etc.

The CRUCIBLE ritual was introduced early on as a way for decimated mutants to "be made whole" via the Resurrection Protocols. That got the ball rolling...I don't recall which mutant started the other modifications in the protocols - maybe Kid Omega?

[Devaishwarya]

The CRUCIBLE ritual was introduced early on as a way for decimated mutants to "be made whole" via the Resurrection Protocols. That got the ball rolling...I don't recall which mutant started the other modifications in the protocols - maybe Kid Omega?

Yes...for those who lost their powers during MDay. It still has nothing to do with actually "correcting" existing powers and abilities. That use certainly came after brought to the fore by Vita in their New Mutants (at least that's the first time I recall the idea being expressed).

[Grunty]

Hickman and Co. only presented the RPs as a means of cheating death. It wasn't a primary solution to physical issues such as disabilities, etc. That's on some writers who saw the story possibilities...and ran with it. We are the ones who are having this rather deep discussion on the whys and wherefores of it. I can almost guarantee most of the lead writers don't care to delve so far because that was never the main intent.

Touché.

The Crucible ritual was introduced early on as a way for decimated mutants to "be made whole" via the Resurrection Protocols. That got the ball rolling...I don't recall which mutant started the other modifications in the protocols - maybe Kid Omega?

The funny thing about the crucible is that it was actualy entirely uncessary too, since multiple other forms of repowering mutants were introduced in the 15 years since Decimation, some which were technicaly entirely mass reproducable (like the "fixed" morituri process from Spurrier's X-force run) and that's before we consider all the techno-organic wizardry Hickman just snapped into existence for the mutants.

So the primary reason for the crucible to exist as this only solution to depowered mutants, was most likely to be intentionaly creepy and unsettling, all to have a nasty reveal eventualy.

But then the nasty reveal didn't come and instead it seems like the other writers felt they need to present it as normal and acceptable.

[Alan2099]

So the primary reason for the crucible to exist as this only solution to depowered mutants, was most likely to be intentionaly creepy and unsettling, all to have a nasty reveal eventualy.

But then the nasty reveal didn't come and instead it seems like the other writers felt they need to present it as normal and acceptable.

It feels like the majority of Krakoa's set up worked like that.