I think Batman has two masks, not one

[anakin99]

I find the idea of Bruce Wayne being the mask and Batman's the TRUE self absurd I think he has two masks Bruce Wayne's Playboy Billionaire for the public and Batman is in order to spread terror in criminals and Then there's just Bruce When he is alone in the cave with Alfred or one of Robins When he is not trying to deceive or scare anyone

[JBatmanFan05]

I long ago used to buy "Bruce Wayne is the mask and Batman's the true self", but I definitely do not buy it anymore. I think, perhaps along similar lines, that thinking that has, intended consequence or not, hurt Bruce Wayne in Batman comics. Grant Morrison seemed to want to reject or end this mask/true self duality (The Return of Bruce Wayne is titled the way it is for many reasons), and I instantly understood why because Batman comics became a place where Bruce was too moody, too antisocial, too unromantic, etc.

Pre-Crisis Bruce Wayne had more of a "life" and that was the better healthier Bruce, and Morrison said and would say that if Batman truly trained in all these things, eastern and western arts and philosophies, that he'd be more zen and happy and holistic, not an endlessly hopelessly grimdark type.

[bat39]

I find the idea of Bruce Wayne being the mask and Batman's the TRUE self absurd I think he has two masks Bruce Wayne's Playboy Billionaire for the public and Batman is in order to spread terror in criminals and Then there's just Bruce When he is alone in the cave with Alfred or one of Robins When he is not trying to deceive or scare anyone

Yeah, that's been my thinking. Its how the Nolan films approached things as well (though ironically, the Nolan films literally had Rachel calling Bruce the 'mask'...but I guess that was her reaction based on seeing his overdone fake 'playboy' persona in action).

I do believe though that over time, the 'public' Bruce Wayne evolves into something closer to Bruce's true self, and ideally, the Batman persona too softens over time (or at least, when the times are good, like in the Silver Age) to reflect Bruce's real self rather than the violent vigilante he initially portrayed himself as.

Its funny that this discussion tends to happen mostly with Bruce. You never have people arguing about whether Robin or Nightwing is the 'real' person/Dick Grayson is the 'mask' or not

I long ago used to buy "Bruce Wayne is the mask and Batman's the true self", but I definitely do not buy it anymore. I think, perhaps along similar lines, that thinking that has, intended consequence or not, hurt Bruce Wayne in Batman comics. Grant Morrison seemed to want to reject or end this mask/true self duality, (The Return of Bruce Wayne is titled the way it is for many reasons) and I instantly understood why because Batman comics became a place where Bruce was too moody, too antisocial, too unromantic, etc.

Pre-Crisis Bruce Wayne had more of a "life" and that was the better healthier Bruce, and Morrison said and would say that if Batman truly trained in all these things, eastern and western arts and philosophies, that he'd be more zen and happy and holistic, not an endlessly hopelessly grimdark type.

I think even if Bruce is hopelessly grimdark, its Bruce who's hopelessly grimdark, not Batman. Batman is just a construct. If Bruce truly believes that Batman is the 'real' him, then he literally is insane, and I've never been a fan of that interpretation of the character (though I admit it might be a valid one in some cases).

I think Robert Pattison did a great job portraying a Bruce Wayne who, to begin with at least, was pretty messed up and consumed by his crusade. But he's still Bruce Wayne - Batman is still just a suit, a tool to strike fear into the hearts of criminals.

[JBatmanFan05]

I think even if Bruce is hopelessly grimdark, its Bruce who's hopelessly grimdark, not Batman. Batman is just a construct. If Bruce truly believes that Batman is the 'real' him, then he literally is insane, and I've never been a fan of that interpretation of the character (though I admit it might be a valid one in some cases).

I think Robert Pattison did a great job portraying a Bruce Wayne who, to begin with at least, was pretty messed up and consumed by his crusade. But he's still Bruce Wayne - Batman is still just a suit, a tool to strike fear into the hearts of criminals.

I admit you make a good point about Matt Reeves's seemingly fundamental conception of the Bruce/Batman dynamic, it perhaps being less dualistic (or more mostly-Bruce/Bruce-centric).

Whether it's Bruce or Batman, I don't want either being hopelessly grimdark (unless it fits certain very temporary stories for example like after Jason died). I'm fine with a younger Year One/Two-ish Batman having some more struggles with being too moody, too antisocial, too unromantic, but Morrison and thinking back to Denny O'Neill and other writers like Matt Wagner, etc make the stronger truer and more classical case for "present" Bruce/Batman as someone who should not be so persistently mired in misery, but a more mature adult really back in tune with all the arts and philosophies he trained in (like when Bruce came out of the cave renewed after Infinite Crisis).

Its funny that this discussion tends to happen mostly with Bruce. You never have people arguing about whether Robin or Nightwing is the 'real' person/Dick Grayson is the 'mask' or not

Perhaps because their characters don't tend to get so out of whack for so long. So mired in some dualism.

[Alan2099]

There was a JLA story in the 90s where the hereos and their secret identities got split into two different people. Batman was essentially a blank empty shell while Bruce was filled with hate and rage when it came to crime.

[bat39]

I admit you make a good point about Matt Reeves's seemingly fundamental conception of the Bruce/Batman dynamic, it perhaps being less dualistic (or more mostly-Bruce/Bruce-centric).

Whether it's Bruce or Batman, I don't want either being hopelessly grimdark (unless it fits certain very temporary stories for example like after Jason died). I'm fine with a younger Year One/Two-ish Batman having some more struggles with being too moody, too antisocial, too unromantic, but Morrison and thinking back to Denny O'Neill and other writers like Matt Wagner, etc make the stronger truer and more classical case for "present" Bruce/Batman as someone who should not be so persistently mired in misery, but a more mature adult really back in tune with all the arts and philosophies he trained in (like when Bruce came out of the cave renewed after Infinite Crisis).




Perhaps because their characters don't tend to get so out of whack for so long. So mired in some dualism.

I think Morrison's point was also that it's a bit cyclical. Bruce has his ups and downs over the course of his career as Batman, and Morrison's run was really all about him being in a good place and getting to an even better place with Batman Inc.

[JBatmanFan05]

I think Morrison's point was also that it's a bit cyclical. Bruce has his ups and downs over the course of his career as Batman, and Morrison's run was really all about him being in a good place and getting to an even better place with Batman Inc.

Yeah, Morrison's run is about a lot (and about different things all at once), both offering an ideal (creative life) (him thinking Bruce/Batman should be a more 60s/70ish James Bond type, a mentally strong healthier playboy socialite who fights crime) but Morrison facing the grim reality (creative death) (Batman seems unable to break out of a cycle that inevitably now always seems to bring him on back to a more or less grimdark Post-Crisis-ish Miller/Moore-influenced uptight jerky paranoid misery).