Justice Society of America #2 Review/Discussion

[Mantis-Ray]

I definitely think Johns' work has a lot of barely disguised military and cop propaganda and a variety of stereotypes, but he seems more racially ignorant than actually maliciously racist. And I remember Fisher ranting about someone being racist for lightening a black actor's skin color but it ended up being a digital correction due to the lighting in the scene, so his claims seemed less credible the more it went on.

Don't get me wrong. If Johns is actually a racist, that's reprehensible. But it more just seemed like Johns was just kind of insensitive and Fisher blew it out of proportion.

From the looks of it Fisher likes to blow things out of proportion

Like recently he called out Gunn for deleting a tweet related to Whedon despite Gunn has an auto-delete on old tweets and even then he and Gunn already talked about the tweet before and agreed there was no problem there

So whatever validity he may have had is getting lost in an ocean of picking fights with people

[Vordan]

Twitter culture warriors think he's a fascist because of the Justice League movie and some other vague reasons relating to his writings on stuff like Stargirl, JSA, GL, Flash and Doomsday Clock.

It’s almost admirable how many terminally online weirdos he’s managed to piss off.

[bat39]

The silver and bronze age and the age before zero hour are all very compressed then.

Another thing is some events may be re arranged.

Yeah, some kind of 're-arrangement' is probably necessary, especially when you consider things like Jon having been around in the background for a sizable chunk of Superman's career.

The way this stands, everything from the Silver Age to Zero Hour fits into 5 years, and then the last 8 years is everything from Zero Hour to today. Now, on one level, it does make a kind of sense, since exponentially more big status quo-altering stuff has happened since Zero Hour than it has in all the decades of DC publication history before that. But then, there's also the fact that things like Dick's career as Robin and transition to Nightwing, Wally's career as Kid Flash and then becoming Flash etc. were supposed to happen over a long period of time as well. Compressing those into 5 years doesn't make sense.

I definitely think Johns' work has a lot of barely disguised military and cop propaganda and a variety of stereotypes, but he seems more racially ignorant than actually maliciously racist. And I remember Fisher ranting about someone being racist for lightening a black actor's skin color but it ended up being a digital correction due to the lighting in the scene, so his claims seemed less credible the more it went on.

Don't get me wrong. If Johns is actually a racist, that's reprehensible. But it more just seemed like Johns was just kind of insensitive and Fisher blew it out of proportion.

I mean, the superhero genre is 'military/cop' propaganda if you really think about it. So that's hardly a criticism.

Ray Fisher is just one of the many guys who thought he could use the socio-political climate of 2020-21 to settle a few personal and professional scores. It worked for a while...until everyone got fed up.

[HsssH]

I mean, the superhero genre is 'military/cop' propaganda if you really think about it. So that's hardly a criticism.

That is a very hard pill to swallow for many twitter activists.

[Mantis-Ray]

That is a very hard pill to swallow for many twitter activists.

Nuance is a tough thing to grasp for some people, especially twitter users

I mean sure Punisher being a crazy white guy with guns shooting up criminals has some unfortunate optics now but are you really gonna call like Luke Cage fighting corrupt cops and government/military officials "copaganda"?

There's a complexity and variety here that you can't really just claim everything fits under one term but most people don't want a discussion

[bat39]

Nuance is a tough thing to grasp for some people, especially twitter users

I mean sure Punisher being a crazy white guy with guns shooting up criminals has some unfortunate optics now but are you really gonna call like Luke Cage fighting corrupt cops and government/military officials "copaganda"?

There's a complexity and variety here that you can't really just claim everything fits under one term but most people don't want a discussion

Of course there's complexity and variety and I was oversimplifying a bit.

But if you really look at the superhero genre, for the most part superheroes play the role of law-enforcement and military in-universe, and are often allied with those authorities.

For all the talk of Batman being a 'vigilante', the oldest supporting character of the franchise (older than Robin, Alfred, Joker) is Commissioner Gordon. If you think about it, Batman is essentially a (not-so) covert arm of the GCPD...an arms-length operative who isn't bound by due process.

On the Marvel side, in the movies the Avengers Initiative started as a project by SHIELD, an intelligence organization funded by the US and other major governments. So the Avengers were basically military/intelligence contractors. Captain America literally is a US Army officer turned SHIELD agent (Black Widow and Hawkeye were SHIELD agents too). This goes back to the comics where the Avengers had government sanction. Hell, even the X-men were a covert ops division for the FBI when they started out!

The superhero genre is fundamentally about the law-enforcement and military functions of the state being 'outsourced' to these private individuals who are supposed to be incorruptible and get the job done without any constraints. If superheroes existed in real-life, they'd be the nightmare of every left-wing progressive or 'woke' person (or even of an old-school liberal for that matter).

Incidentially, the Justice Society of America is probably one of the greatest examples of the convergence between superheroes and the military (whatever else you say about the Black Adam movie, it more or less got that part right!)

[Digifiend]

For all the talk of Batman being a 'vigilante', the oldest supporting character of the franchise (older than Robin, Alfred, Joker) is Commissioner Gordon. If you think about it, Batman is essentially a (not-so) covert arm of the GCPD...an arms-length operative who isn't bound by due process.

Catwoman and Joker debuted in the same issue, Batman #1 in 1940.

Commissioner Gordon debuted in the same issue as Batman himself! Detective Comics #27, 1939.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Detective_Comics_Vol_1_27

[bat39]

Catwoman and Joker debuted in the same issue, Batman #1 in 1940.

Commissioner Gordon debuted in the same issue as Batman himself! Detective Comics #27, 1939.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Detective_Comics_Vol_1_27

Yeah.

So the order of character introductions in real-life was Batman + Gordon -> Robin -> Joker + Catwoman -> Alfred

In most modern continuities it tends to be something like Batman + Alfred -> Gordon -> Catwoman -> Joker -> Robin

[Refrax5]

Yeah, some kind of 're-arrangement' is probably necessary, especially when you consider things like Jon having been around in the background for a sizable chunk of Superman's career.

The way this stands, everything from the Silver Age to Zero Hour fits into 5 years, and then the last 8 years is everything from Zero Hour to today. Now, on one level, it does make a kind of sense, since exponentially more big status quo-altering stuff has happened since Zero Hour than it has in all the decades of DC publication history before that. But then, there's also the fact that things like Dick's career as Robin and transition to Nightwing, Wally's career as Kid Flash and then becoming Flash etc. were supposed to happen over a long period of time as well. Compressing those into 5 years doesn't make sense.



I mean, the superhero genre is 'military/cop' propaganda if you really think about it. So that's hardly a criticism.

Ray Fisher is just one of the many guys who thought he could use the socio-political climate of 2020-21 to settle a few personal and professional scores. It worked for a while...until everyone got fed up.

To an extent, I agree. That's definitely something Alan Moore was getting at. But Johns REALLY leans into that stuff to the point where he gave Barry much more of a "hard-nosed cop" persona in Rebirth and his GL run felt like a military recruitment ad at times. Meanwhile you have some characters like the X-Men that are full-on outlaws.

But you are right that there are obvious right-wing ideologies baked into the concept of superheroes. It's something I struggle with more the older I get.

[bat39]

To an extent, I agree. That's definitely something Alan Moore was getting at. But Johns REALLY leans into that stuff to the point where he gave Barry much more of a "hard-nosed cop" persona in Rebirth and his GL run felt like a military recruitment ad at times. Meanwhile you have some characters like the X-Men that are full-on outlaws.

But you are right that there are obvious right-wing ideologies baked into the concept of superheroes. It's something I struggle with more the older I get.

I think the whole idea of Barry being a 'hard-nosed cop' might have been an attempt to differentiate him from Wally, who has generally been seen as a young 'chill' character (a straight-up jokester in the JL cartoon). As for GL, the whole concept of the Corps is that they are very much an intergalatic military (or rather 'peacekeeping' force). But yeah, Hal Jordan's own military background is something that has been really emphasized over the last couple of decades (and John being a Marine, and then transitioning into another kind of soldier with the GLC, is a pretty core part of his character after the JL/JLU).

When it comes to 'right-wing' ideologies, well, I think the term 'right-wing' (or 'left-wing') for that matter are used as a catch-all for a lot of ideas that get lumped together and sometimes tainted by association. But there are a lot of 'right-wing' ideas that are really the bedrock of any civilized society in the history of mankind - law and order, defence of the group/tribe/nation, protecting one's family/kinsmen/fellow citizens etc. Superheroes are just an extension of those age-old ideas. There are 'left-wing' ideas too that have been the bedrock of civilized society - such as protecting the weak - and those also play into the superhero concept.

[TheCasualReader]

Suffice to say, I disagree.

The modern concept of superheroes is accountability and/or protection: they hold someone accountable; corrupt cop, criminal, eldritch horror. They protect someone from: corrupt cops, criminals, eldritch horrors etc.

The concept of superheroes does not itself lean one way or another. It is the ideology of the writer that chooses the direction a superhero (and their related universe) leans. This is why superheroes, and their stories, comes in such a wide variety that can be tailored to appeal to any belief/ideology.

I say modern because mythological figures (ex. Gilgamesh and/or Enkidu) folklore and even some fairy tale characters consistute an early concept of superheroes that further broadens the variety of superhero stories in general and is further evidence that the writer's ideology/beliefs is what defines which ways a superhero leans.

[Hol]

To an extent, I agree. That's definitely something Alan Moore was getting at. But Johns REALLY leans into that stuff to the point where he gave Barry much more of a "hard-nosed cop" persona in Rebirth and his GL run felt like a military recruitment ad at times. Meanwhile you have some characters like the X-Men that are full-on outlaws.

But you are right that there are obvious right-wing ideologies baked into the concept of superheroes. It's something I struggle with more the older I get.

There are also lots of Liberal ideas in comics...especially these days. I am a liberal and I like seeing both as long as it is done right. Plenty of room for many peoples ideas and perspectives in comics as far as I am concerned. As long as it is done well and doesn't feel like an after school special.

[Hol]

I think the whole idea of Barry being a 'hard-nosed cop' might have been an attempt to differentiate him from Wally, who has generally been seen as a young 'chill' character (a straight-up jokester in the JL cartoon). As for GL, the whole concept of the Corps is that they are very much an intergalatic military (or rather 'peacekeeping' force). But yeah, Hal Jordan's own military background is something that has been really emphasized over the last couple of decades (and John being a Marine, and then transitioning into another kind of soldier with the GLC, is a pretty core part of his character after the JL/JLU).

When it comes to 'right-wing' ideologies, well, I think the term 'right-wing' (or 'left-wing') for that matter are used as a catch-all for a lot of ideas that get lumped together and sometimes tainted by association. But there are a lot of 'right-wing' ideas that are really the bedrock of any civilized society in the history of mankind - law and order, defence of the group/tribe/nation, protecting one's family/kinsmen/fellow citizens etc. Superheroes are just an extension of those age-old ideas. There are 'left-wing' ideas too that have been the bedrock of civilized society - such as protecting the weak - and those also play into the superhero concept.

Very well said. Nice to read such a reasonable voice online these days. Everyone is so divided nowadays.

[bat39]

Suffice to say, I disagree.

The modern concept of superheroes is accountability and/or protection: they hold someone accountable; corrupt cop, criminal, eldritch horror. They protect someone from: corrupt cops, criminals, eldritch horrors etc.

The concept of superheroes does not itself lean one way or another. It is the ideology of the writer that chooses the direction a superhero (and their related universe) leans. This is why superheroes, and their stories, comes in such a wide variety that can be tailored to appeal to any belief/ideology.

I say modern because mythological figures (ex. Gilgamesh and/or Enkidu) folklore and even some fairy tale characters consistute an early concept of superheroes that further broadens the variety of superhero stories in general and is further evidence that the writer's ideology/beliefs is what defines which ways a superhero leans.

Not sure what we disagree on here, to be honest.

Very well said. Nice to read such a reasonable voice online these days. Everyone is so divided nowadays.

Thank you!

[Dataweaver]

Yep; comics have room for both Green Lantern and Green Arrow. Frankly, while I wouldn't trust the current crop of writers to do it right, I think now would be a perfect time to revisit the “hard traveling heroes” concept, with a conservative hero and a liberal hero teaming up and taking a trip across America. But as I said, I wouldn't trust the current crop of writers to do it right; just about everyone at DC these days would likely treat the conservative member of the pair as a villain in all but name, which would defeat the point of the book every bit as much as treating the liberal hero as a villain in all but name would.

But we're getting off topic here.