BOOYAH!!!: Cyborg/Victor Stone Appreciation 2023

[Iconic]

Someone mentioned Clark and Bruce being involved as well. I mention that as ... and i'm no the most knowledgeable when it comes to DC ... but isn't this the New 52 Justice League + Zatanna and Plastic Man?

Which i'm fine with as long as Cyborg is treated well but ...wasn't there a fan push back with regard to the new 52 ? And wasn't the issue of what is and isn't canon thrown into flux when new 52 was canceled? Wouldn't that mean Cyborg is pulling ...double duty as a hero (triple if you consider his solo activities)?

I'm sure i have some of that incorrect but i'm relying on you folks to correct me

If Vic is Leaguing it again, it’s all the more why DC should elevate his profile and cement him as a premier character.

[Ascended]

isn't this the New 52 Justice League + Zatanna and Plastic Man?

Eh, the New52 roster was just the normal Big 7 with Vic taking J'onn's place. So if this is true it's a pretty standard JLA line-up, as it's not like Zee and Plas haven't been Leaguers before. Can't be sure, but the scan y'all are talking about....isn't that just one of the covers for issue 4? I don't think that's hinting at a new League.

Which i'm fine with as long as Cyborg is treated well but ...wasn't there a fan push back with regard to the new 52 ?

Two kinds, generally speaking. There were fans who didn't want Vic on the League at all, and a second group who just didn't like how he was used there. Among the first group there were folks who didn't ever want him anywhere but the Titans and then those who just didn't want Vic to be a League founder, but were fine with him joining later on. Among the 'how he's used' group, we resented the fact that he was the only Leaguer without a solo book (he didn't get a solo until years later) and we resented that he got less page time than anyone else and was most often used as a Boom Tube taxi. He had a few highlights during the New52 League, especially the invasion from earth-3, but DC didn't even try to make it look like they were putting any real effort into him.

And wasn't the issue of what is and isn't canon thrown into flux when new 52 was canceled? Wouldn't that mean Cyborg is pulling ...double duty as a hero (triple if you consider his solo activities)?

What is and isn't canon is probably even more in flux now than it was in the New52 or Rebirth, honestly.

IF there's a new League anytime soon and IF Vic is part of it, then yeah he'd be pulling triple duty, assuming the Titans aren't cancelled. But that shouldn't be a challenge for a dude who can teleport *and* fly faster than sound. Plenty of other heroes have been on multiple teams at once while still doing their solo thing too, it's not even that unusual. As fans, we should only hope we're lucky enough for Vic to be used to much!

Anyway, finally got to the LCS and read #4. Enjoying the book a lot, and though I wish the art team were a better fit (I like them, just maybe not for this title) I dig what Hampton is doing with the character and mythos. Loved the introspective conversation Silas got to have, nice to see Hampton zero-in on the parallels between Vic's origin and Silas' new situation. Enjoying the story, enjoying the villain, enjoying the new additions to the supporting cast. Totally called that streamer being a new love interest. I can't say this is the best book I'm pulling from DC but it's far from bad and if the quality stays like this then I'm in for the long haul.

As for the talk about Vic changing his appearance, both of Vic's last two books went over that 'development' as if it were new, so it's great to see Hampton acknowledge it and not retread that ground again. Dude seems to be pushing Vic ahead rather than cycling the same stories and I love him for it. Hoping we get a little exploration of Vic's headspace when it comes to how he looks. If he still has the ability to look normal, which was never retconned anyway, just ignored, then there's a reason he doesn't use it as a regular thing and it'd be interesting to see Vic's internal justifications for his choice. And at least some fans definitely seem to need that.

[Alan2099]

A lot of the complaints people have about Cyborg are the same complaints (or similar ones) that people have had about Martian Mahunter while he was on the JLA. Both of them seem to fall into that category of "the 7th member" of the League. Kinda makes me wonder whether saying the JLA even HAS a "Big Seven" is accurate.

[Ascended]

A lot of the complaints people have about Cyborg are the same complaints (or similar ones) that people have had about Martian Mahunter while he was on the JLA. Both of them seem to fall into that category of "the 7th member" of the League. Kinda makes me wonder whether saying the JLA even HAS a "Big Seven" is accurate.

Honestly I think it's more like a "Big 5" than anything; the Trinity, a Flash, and a Lantern. Even Aquaman often feels like he's just kinda there for little reason beyond habit and tradition.

[marhawkman]

Honestly I think it's more like a "Big 5" than anything; the Trinity, a Flash, and a Lantern. Even Aquaman often feels like he's just kinda there for little reason beyond habit and tradition.

Main 7 if you put in MM and Aquaman. Which feels very "classic JL" to me. Yeah, some are more often used than others, but....

[Sutekh]

A lot of the complaints people have about Cyborg are the same complaints (or similar ones) that people have had about Martian Mahunter while he was on the JLA. Both of them seem to fall into that category of "the 7th member" of the League. Kinda makes me wonder whether saying the JLA even HAS a "Big Seven" is accurate.

Yeah, that 7th slot seems to be a rotating one. It's Martian Manhunter! Unless Morrison is writing, then it's Plastic Man! Oh wait, it was always Black Canary? And then the cartoon, where it's Hawkwoman! And now, Cyborg gets his hot second in the temp chair! (And I feel like Captain Marvel was *this* close to yoinking it from him, for a while there...)

Hard to see Cyborg getting that slot as a huge upgrade we should be all grateful for when he's the fifth person to warm that seat.

[skyvolt2000]

A lot of the complaints people have about Cyborg are the same complaints (or similar ones) that people have had about Martian Mahunter while he was on the JLA. Both of them seem to fall into that category of "the 7th member" of the League. Kinda makes me wonder whether saying the JLA even HAS a "Big Seven" is accurate.

In terms of marketing it's NOT.

Because in general it's not even a big 5 when you look at certain products.

When New 52 was going on the products that included or used New 52 JL included Bruce, Clark, Hal and Barry in EVERYTHING.
I have seen toys, fruit snacks and cereal only feature those 4.
At least one party set only featured those 4.
Another managed to include Aquaman.

In other case you will see Wonder Woman and Aquaman (later Jessica Cruz and maybe Simon (not sure about him).
Cyborg was generally left off.

I have also seen OLDER Justice League stuff with Bruce, Hal, Barry, Clark, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Batgirl, Ollie and Dinah on shelves like Portfolios.

When we had Justice League valentines-Cyborg was EXCLUDED. Although in that set-it featured Catwoman and Batgirl in their 70-80s outfits-I want to say it was early George Perez or Jose Lopez Garcia.

Heck I saw more John Stewart Justice League stuff than non-movie Cyborg Justice League.

[Customizer]

In terms of marketing it's NOT.

Because in general it's not even a big 5 when you look at certain products.

When New 52 was going on the products that included or used New 52 JL included Bruce, Clark, Hal and Barry in EVERYTHING.
I have seen toys, fruit snacks and cereal only feature those 4.
At least one party set only featured those 4.
Another managed to include Aquaman.


Heck I saw more John Stewart Justice League stuff than non-movie Cyborg Justice League.

As someone that purchases and pays attention to as much, if not more , non movie JL movie Cyborg general product than Cyborg comic book product i thought you might be wrong. I've purchased everything from toys and Justice League cake toppers to obscure European Kinder egg surprise Justice League mini statues (of horrible quality) and i'd always seen Cyborg. However ...the more i thought about it i realized that i found these items because i was specifically searching using "Cyborg Justice League" as opposed to just "Justice League" more often than not. I just made a casual Justice League only search and you're right. Far more non JL movie Justice League product is marketed with Superman, Batman, Flash and Green Lantern Hal than it is with other characters. If i were to include Diana then i'd say the majority of product is marketed using those 5 only.

I came across a number of odd tchotchkes that really drove home the point. One in particular stood out to me - a child sized carboard cut out with the heads of Superman and Batman removed so kids could take a picture as the characters. Cyborg was right above them in the art. His head wasn't cut out for a child to take a picture as Cyborg. I found that...interesting.

Something else i've noticed over the years but was reminded of after this casual product search was.... when "photogenic art work" to promote product was presented John Stewart was used quite often. Again.. interesting as Cyborg is available but you can only show half of his visage in those situations. When wish fulfilment is on the menu John Stewart seems to be the first brown skinned male hero chosen. It made me think about the very few promotional images i've seen with Black Lightning for example.

[Ascended]

That's not surprising is it? The biggest names on the League are Clark, Bruce, Diana, Barry and Hal. Naturally they'd be used for marketing more than J'onn, and until Mamoa showed up, Aquaman was something of a double-edged sword in marketing; well known but seen largely as a joke. Guys like Vic, Zee, Atom, the Hawks, all the "other" Leaguers who aren't actually on the roster all the time, they rarely get used in 'generic' JLA marketing.

And Black Lightning never gets anything due to the issues with Isabella, I assume. I thought he and DC had made nice and cut a deal a few years back but I dunno if that's true, since Jeff doesn't seem to be showing up any more than he ever did.

[skyvolt2000]

As someone that purchases and pays attention to as much, if not more , non movie JL movie Cyborg general product than Cyborg comic book product i thought you might be wrong. I've purchased everything from toys and Justice League cake toppers to obscure European Kinder egg surprise Justice League mini statues (of horrible quality) and i'd always seen Cyborg. However ...the more i thought about it i realized that i found these items because i was specifically searching using "Cyborg Justice League" as opposed to just "Justice League" more often than not. I just made a casual Justice League only search and you're right. Far more non JL movie Justice League product is marketed with Superman, Batman, Flash and Green Lantern Hal than it is with other characters. If i were to include Diana then i'd say the majority of product is marketed using those 5 only.

Now overseas it tends to be a different story as other places have stuff we in the USA don't.

Like for you 80s babies-The Get Along gang-their Marvel comic only lasted 6 issues. The overseas version with two extra members went 96.
Some European restaurants had JL John Stewart toys that never made it over here.
The last Fantastic Four movie had stuff in Mexico that never made it here.

That's not surprising is it? The biggest names on the League are Clark, Bruce, Diana, Barry and Hal.

While that might be true. The optics look bad with not just Cyborg but the 3 Leaguers played by POC left out of stuff.

Folks NOTICE that.

We get free posters from DC and Marvel for our schools sometimes. DC tends to be POC free posters. Unless it Justice League John Stewart more than Hal.
Marvel-T'Challa, Shuri, Miles, Falcon, America Chavez, Kamala, Moon Girl, Rhodey, Riri, Luke and sometimes Storm. But more Miles, Falcon and T'Challa.

Folks NOTICE when you go to cons and the artist alley is mainly those 5 and Harley. Stranger Things minus Lucas. TMNT minus black April. X-Men minus every POC NOT named Storm. Justice League without Cyborg unless it's 2000s JL with John Stewart.
Even the professional ones that became prints. Excluding Neal Adams's John Stewart prints, Miles (Spiderverse version) and T'Challa-POC free.

Folks NOTICE.

But folks want to act shocked or clutch pearls when POC lead stuff bombs. What has been done to promote???

Excluding Milestone, Riri, Panther, Miles and Kamala how many stores have had promo posters of POC?

Folks NOTICE.

We get the excuse of nobody bought this or that. Yeah just like they didn't for those 5. Yet you kept producing.

[Customizer]

It was a bit surprising to me. I thought, and somewhat still do, that Cyborg showed up in most non comic JL merchandise and promotional imagery. I saw that guy everywhere in my searches alongside the usual suspects.

At some point I'm going to quantify how much he shows up in a search offline and on just for the heck of it.

And I *definitely* see Sam Wilson a lot.

[marhawkman]

In terms of marketing it's NOT.

Because in general it's not even a big 5 when you look at certain products.

When New 52 was going on the products that included or used New 52 JL included Bruce, Clark, Hal and Barry in EVERYTHING.
I have seen toys, fruit snacks and cereal only feature those 4.
At least one party set only featured those 4.
Another managed to include Aquaman.

In other case you will see Wonder Woman and Aquaman (later Jessica Cruz and maybe Simon (not sure about him).
Cyborg was generally left off.

I have also seen OLDER Justice League stuff with Bruce, Hal, Barry, Clark, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Batgirl, Ollie and Dinah on shelves like Portfolios.

When we had Justice League valentines-Cyborg was EXCLUDED. Although in that set-it featured Catwoman and Batgirl in their 70-80s outfits-I want to say it was early George Perez or Jose Lopez Garcia.

Heck I saw more John Stewart Justice League stuff than non-movie Cyborg Justice League.

A gas station in my area got a set of promotional merch items that are stick on pictures of various DC characters.

24 in total, 12 character pics, 12 logos.
Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash
Aquaman, Cyborg, Mera, Supergirl
Catwoman, Joker, Harley, Black Manta

heheeh. Character choices are probably influenced by the DC movies and TV.

[Customizer]

As fans, we should only hope we're lucky enough for Vic to be used to much!

Agreed. I'll take as much * quality * Cyborg material as i can get.

Anyway, finally got to the LCS and read #4. Enjoying the book a lot, and though I wish the art team were a better fit (I like them, just maybe not for this title) I dig what Hampton is doing with the character and mythos. Loved the introspective conversation Silas got to have, nice to see Hampton zero-in on the parallels between Vic's origin and Silas' new situation. Enjoying the story, enjoying the villain, enjoying the new additions to the supporting cast. Totally called that streamer being a new love interest. I can't say this is the best book I'm pulling from DC but it's far from bad and if the quality stays like this then I'm in for the long haul.

As for the talk about Vic changing his appearance, both of Vic's last two books went over that 'development' as if it were new, so it's great to see Hampton acknowledge it and not retread that ground again. Dude seems to be pushing Vic ahead rather than cycling the same stories and I love him for it. Hoping we get a little exploration of Vic's headspace when it comes to how he looks. If he still has the ability to look normal, which was never retconned anyway, just ignored, then there's a reason he doesn't use it as a regular thing and it'd be interesting to see Vic's internal justifications for his choice. And at least some fans definitely seem to need that.

Despite my vocal misgivings regarding one specific aspect of Cyborg i'm enjoying the book as well (short of the unappealing scene of food flying out of the female characters mouth heh). I agree with your perspective on the art. It isn't bad....i just don't like it for this title. Upon looking a bit closer it ...reminds me of ...old 1970's era cartoon art a bit. Seriously - Google "1970's era cartoon art" and compare it to the latest issue art. It's not completely the same but i occasionally see things that remind me of that era.

Everything up to this point is ''enjoyably adequate" and i'm 100% fine with that. If i can put a comic down (or in my case close out a window as i purchase digital comics primarily) and feel as though i enjoyed the book and wasn't insulted intellectually or personally i'm ok with that. I don't need *every* title to be a deep metaphor about the nature of reality or human trafficking. I'm completely fine with Cyborg displaying his powers , kicking ass and looking good while doing it. It's a superhero comic.

I find myself ever so slightly concerned considering that this is a 6 issue series because it seems as though we're really about 3 issues away from Hampton really hitting his stride after establishing his foundation. At this pace and at this stage of the story ...it seems as though 2 more issues to complete the current arc are needed at least.

[Ascended]

Agreed. I'll take as much * quality * Cyborg material as i can get.

Emphasis on 'quality.' I've debated the merits of supporting characters/books even when they're bad, and I still fall on the side of refusing to pay for stuff that doesn't entertain me. All that does is show DC I'll pay them for their lowest, worst effort, and if we all do that, what incentive do they have to improve?

But I'm pretty happy with where Vic is at right now. I don't know if he's gotten this much attention, and good attention at that, in my thirty years as a DC fan.

I agree with your perspective on the art. It isn't bad....i just don't like it for this title

Did you read the 00's era Outsiders with Arsenal and Nightwing? Guy did the art there too, and it was a really solid fit. It totally worked for that kind of title. But for Vic I want something a little more kinetic, a little more...cyberpunk? Whoever does these covers would be fantastic as an interior artist. Not quite a cartoony style, but just cartoony enough to be a lot of fun, and 'fun' is one thing Vic needs in abundance.

I find myself ever so slightly concerned considering that this is a 6 issue series because it seems as though we're really about 3 issues away from Hampton really hitting his stride after establishing his foundation. At this pace and at this stage of the story ...it seems as though 2 more issues to complete the current arc are needed at least.

I forget this is just a mini, not an ongoing. Do we know what sales have looked like? Hopefully the thing gets another 6 issues, if not the full ongoing treatment. That's what DC seems to be doing now, launching minis and then extending them if they do well. But I haven't heard anything about Vic's book.

Yeah, if this ends at #6 it's gonna suck. This arc does feel like prologue, with the best yet to come. It'd be par for the course, as Cyborg fans, if we never get to the best material but I'm so fucking sick of watching Vic get within inches of achieving greatness, only to have the rug pulled out from under him.

[Customizer]

Emphasis on 'quality.' I've debated the merits of supporting characters/books even when they're bad, and I still fall on the side of refusing to pay for stuff that doesn't entertain me. All that does is show DC I'll pay them for their lowest, worst effort, and if we all do that, what incentive do they have to improve?

OH yes. That's actually one of the dilemmas i had with Cyborg in the past. I really wanted to like him more than did but i didn't want to support subpar use of the character. I often look at characters through the lens of a marketing professional as opposed to a comic fan. Cyborg was the itch that could never be scratched for me as i couldn't understand why a character with this much potential wasn't being utilized in a way to maximize it. It made the decision to buy past titles more difficult and dependent upon other factors (like who was writing ) than it should have been.

But I'm pretty happy with where Vic is at right now. I don't know if he's gotten this much attention, and good attention at that, in my thirty years as a DC fan.

I'm curious ....are you finding chatter about the character outside of this forum and X (Twitter)?

Did you read the 00's era Outsiders with Arsenal and Nightwing? Guy did the art there too, and it was a really solid fit. It totally worked for that kind of title. But for Vic I want something a little more kinetic, a little more...cyberpunk? Whoever does these covers would be fantastic as an interior artist. Not quite a cartoony style, but just cartoony enough to be a lot of fun, and 'fun' is one thing Vic needs in abundance.

To clarify .... i was speaking of issue #4 artist Sean Damien Hill's work. I found it ....good enough but definitely reminiscent of 70's cartoon art. His depiction of Cyborg in the face could have been ..different. Looking at some of his other work (Bishop War College) the cartoony style is not as pronounced so ...maybe he was trying to be consistent with Rany's prior work? As far as the artist of issue #1 - 3 Tom Rany is concerned i found his art jarring initially but i adapted to it. When i compare panels between the 2 artists though i have less of an issue with Rany's work overall. It's definitely a different style though.

I forget this is just a mini, not an ongoing. Do we know what sales have looked like?

No clue as i haven't searched. With that said...aren't accurate comic sales numbers difficult to find these days?

Yeah, if this ends at #6 it's gonna suck. This arc does feel like prologue, with the best yet to come. It'd be par for the course, as Cyborg fans, if we never get to the best material but I'm so fucking sick of watching Vic get within inches of achieving greatness, only to have the rug pulled out from under him.

This. I'm... resigning myself to the fact that what i really want to see i have to create. The amount of time that passes between solo series or what we , Cyborg supporters, may deem acceptable use of a character is simply too great for me to invest fully into a character i didn't write or create. 3 , 5, 10, 17 years between characters receiving attention is just...ugh. No. Those are large chunks of life time you can't get back waiting and hoping that some comic company gets off of their ass and uses a character you like. I'll take quality Cyborg when it comes but i can't full emotionally invest based upon the track record of DC.