BOOYAH!!!: Cyborg/Victor Stone Appreciation 2023

[Ascended]

OH yes. That's actually one of the dilemmas i had with Cyborg in the past. I really wanted to like him more than did but i didn't want to support subpar use of the character. I often look at characters through the lens of a marketing professional as opposed to a comic fan. Cyborg was the itch that could never be scratched for me as i couldn't understand why a character with this much potential wasn't being utilized in a way to maximize it. It made the decision to buy past titles more difficult and dependent upon other factors (like who was writing ) than it should have been.

Totally get it. I tend to look at all this (well, most things really) from a business perspective too. And I tend to apply literary analysis to everything; took a bunch of those classes since I figured good advertising needs some knowledge of how to tell a story; the story of you buying the product I'm selling! But it's kinda ruined fiction a little bit, in some ways.

I'm curious ....are you finding chatter about the character outside of this forum and X (Twitter)?

More like....awareness? And this should be taken with a huge grain of salt anyway. I keep my online footprint pretty small and this is the only nerd site I regularly visit. So there's definitely an echo chamber effect. But I see stuff like, crap I don't know, Vic in memes, or talk about Ray Fisher and his accusations against WB, commercials for Doom Patrol and GO! where Vic is strongly featured, things like that. Not conversations like we're all having per se, but cultural saturation.

But I was talking about Vic getting attention from DC itself anyway. Sorry for not being clear, that's what I get for trying to write this while asking my kids about their day at school.

As far as the artist of issue #1 - 3 Tom Rany is concerned i found his art jarring initially but i adapted to it.

I find Rany (Rainy? Raney?) a bit of an acquired taste, but one I'm generally a fan of. His stuff is...I dunno, like a slightly distorted Neal Adams, maybe? He gets a little more elastic with the facial expressions and body language, it's a little more....over-acted? Some of his perspectives are harsher. But it's solid, detailed work, and with the right inker/colorist I find his work damned good. But his style isn't a great fit for every kind of story, and I think it's actually a little too...grounded? traditional? for this one.

No clue as i haven't searched. With that said...aren't accurate comic sales numbers difficult to find these days?

It's basically impossible. The best we have, that ivc2 or whatever it's called, isn't what I'd call superior data. And they're just about all we got, outside of a few specific things we can track, like Amazon trade sales.

This. I'm... resigning myself to the fact that what i really want to see i have to create.

Isn't that always the case?

I'll take quality Cyborg when it comes but i can't full emotionally invest based upon the track record of DC.

Amen. I want to see DC put in the effort and I'll support them when they try. I always give Vic's books a chance, but it's hard to really get too excited, considering how Vic's been treated. It's a new regime so we shouldn't hold the sins of past ones against them, and so far the only complaint I have is that it took them a year (two?) before Vic started to get attention. I wish they were pushing him harder and faster, but I can't complain about the steps they've taken this past year. I can't even be mad he's only getting a mini when that's what everyone gets these days, to start. I hope this upwards swing continues and builds upon itself. I don't expect it to, but I'm hoping.

[skyvolt2000]

No clue as i haven't searched. With that said...aren't accurate comic sales numbers difficult to find these days?

All I have seen with those sales charts is they be used as weapons to attack POC, Woman and LGBTQA+ creators and characters.

Here is the hardcore TRUTH bomb- DC and Marvel only CARE about PRE-ORDERS.

That is not ME saying it. That is David Walker, Gail Simone and Dr Eve Ewing saying that.

Marvel nor DC CARE about how many unsold books are sitting on a comic book store shelf.

Guess what STORE do CARE.


No store is going order say 50 copies of Cyborg. They are going to order enough for the book to do what Static (at least where I live does) SELL OUT or leave as few unsold issues.
You can not get Static's first series in any of the 15 stores in my city. Come May 2024-the current run will be in the same boat. Jaime Reyes's last book-hard to find.

So Cyborg can have say 10K and sell out every issue-the echo chamber will scream failure.

Yet the book did what it was suppose to do-SELL. Just not sell enough books to a person.

However that is debatable as we know there are stores that won't sell a POC lead book and others that can't because they just don't sell no matter what.

So any sale list is NOT going to list those stores that didn't order the book.

And that is NOT accounting the secondary market that is doing more damage.

Ebay
Half Price Books
Comic Cons boxes.
Midtown Comics forever sales. I would say Midtown being the MAIN one.

Why RUSH to get that book at cover price when next week to 6 months it will be 75% off? Those 4 make it easier to wait if you don't care about covers.

Emphasis on 'quality.' I've debated the merits of supporting characters/books even when they're bad, and I still fall on the side of refusing to pay for stuff that doesn't entertain me. All that does is show DC I'll pay them for their lowest, worst effort, and if we all do that, what incentive do they have to improve?

There is NONE when you know with certain titles you got stores that will ORDER no matter how bad it is. Hi Batman.

I think more fans have to learn to understand that.

If not buying a badly done Cyborg book gets him sent to limbo or background duty in Titans-WHO does that really hurt???

I got Killadephia, House of Slaughter, Dark Age and 15 other black male lead books to read. That put DC and Marvel and even Milestone to shame.
Rodney Barnes's Monarch or Prodigy (the Michael Holt books we NEED) at Image.

[Customizer]

More like....awareness?... But I see stuff like, crap I don't know, Vic in memes, or talk about Ray Fisher and his accusations against WB, commercials for Doom Patrol and GO! where Vic is strongly featured, things like that. Not conversations like we're all having per se, but cultural saturation.

Ah ok. I was hoping there was some location i wasn't aware of where people were talking about Cyborg non stop lol. I'm not sure what i'm expecting but between hearing that western comics are dead and seeing what seems like low engagement with regard to discussions on various platforms ...it concerns me a bit when i think of DC characters. I've said before i wish they'd license Cyborg to another publisher. Morgan Hampton is doing fine work but if his series isn't continued i'd stand by that wish.




Cyborg 003-006.jpg

Here is the hardcore TRUTH bomb- DC and Marvel only CARE about PRE-ORDERS.

That is not ME saying it. That is David Walker, Gail Simone and Dr Eve Ewing saying that.

Marvel nor DC CARE about how many unsold books are sitting on a comic book store shelf.

Guess what STORE do CARE.



So Cyborg can have say 10K and sell out every issue-the echo chamber will scream failure.

Yet the book did what it was suppose to do - SELL. Just not sell enough books to a person.

However that is debatable as we know there are stores that won't sell a POC lead book and others that can't because they just don't sell no matter what.


If not buying a badly done Cyborg book gets him sent to limbo or background duty in Titans - WHO does that really hurt???

I got Killadephia, House of Slaughter, Dark Age and 15 other black male lead books to read. That put DC and Marvel and even Milestone to shame.
Rodney Barnes's Monarch or Prodigy (the Michael Holt books we NEED) at Image.

That's good information.

I buy most of my digital comics from Amazon and directly from creators. Do you have any recommendations with regard to sites that sell digital comics (and specifically independents outside of their own websites)?

[kefkaroth]

found an interesting thing from someone today that in the 90s there was a scrapped romantic pairing that was supposed to be cyborg and donna troy. even have a black and white pic of them embracing looking into each others eyes. would enjoyed seeing that happen. why do they gotta shaft victor with some sexy hot white chick like he isnt good enough for them (which is one of my top 3 cyborg pairings).wonderborg.jpg

[Iconic]

Random thought.

Seeing that Echo trailer has me thinking it be awesome to get an (hbo) Max series of Cyborg. Something that can definitively introduce him to the public at large. That’s why I’d prefer to get rid of the full time faceplate and constant tech visuals in order to make it cost effective for production. It would be far more intriguing for an actor to want to play the role not having to be in prosthetics 24/7. The hook of a transformation would be entertaining to visualize. It could be the thing to finally answer the most burning questions about his make up.

[Hypestyle]

Has there been a Henry Irons / Cyborg mini-series? I'd like to see an ongoing series with them as a team-up group.

[Ascended]

Ah ok. I was hoping there was some location i wasn't aware of where people were talking about Cyborg non stop lol.

Internet's a big place, there very well could be. Like I said, this is the only nerd site I visit so I wouldn't know. Some Titans-related fan site maybe. Or a chat about black heroes and/or "disabled" ones (whatever term it is we're using for an amputee hero with bionic enhancements).

I'm not sure what i'm expecting but between hearing that western comics are dead and seeing what seems like low engagement with regard to discussions on various platforms ...it concerns me a bit when i think of DC characters. I've said before i wish they'd license Cyborg to another publisher. Morgan Hampton is doing fine work but if his series isn't continued i'd stand by that wish.

Well, "comics are dead!" has been a headline since I started reading comics thirty years ago. I wouldn't get too worked up over those 'sky is falling' fools. Granted, the direct market isn't a quality business model and has no real growth potential and (generally speaking) it's been shrinking since the early 90's, but we're still a long way from an actual collapse. And when that does happen, all that means is publishers will have to find new outlets. The characters aren't going away even if/when the format does.

I've often said that other publishers would likely do a better job with DC's IP, but I wonder how true that really is? A lot of the guys who write for DC also write for those other companies. Would IDW or Boom! or someone really be that much better for Vic when the talent pool is largely the same? The biggest benefit is that the smaller publishers usually don't have a big name like Batman or Spider-Man to hog all the attention. But that only helps to ensure that Vic has a book, not that the book is good.

I think if we want the best version of Vic, odds are we'd have to look outside the comic book talent pool. Find some sci-fi novelist who's really up to date on what 'bleeding edge technology' actually looks like and knows how to adapt that into a character.

found an interesting thing from someone today that in the 90s there was a scrapped romantic pairing that was supposed to be cyborg and donna troy.

Never been a big Donna fan, so I myself am calling this a bullet dodged.

Has there been a Henry Irons / Cyborg mini-series? I'd like to see an ongoing series with them as a team-up group.

Not that I ever heard of, and I'm a huge Superman fan and John Henry Irons supporter so I feel like I would have. Of course, Steel hasn't been used much in the last twenty years, the current Steelworks mini (by Star Trek's Michael Dorn, and worth checking out) is the first book he's had, I think, this century.

[Customizer]

Has there been a Henry Irons / Cyborg mini-series? I'd like to see an ongoing series with them as a team-up group.

It's interesting that you should mention that as there was recently an interaction between John Stewart and Henry Irons. I won't provide details in the event that they may be considered spoilers. With that said it crossed my mind upon reading that interaction ...whether or not a Henry Irons and Victor Stone interaction could be written competently without Cyborg overshadowing Steel. I'd pay for that book.

I also found it interesting that i've got the "Cyborg itch that can't be scratched" at the moment that i've never felt for Steel despite some similarities.

Random thought.

Seeing that Echo trailer has me thinking it be awesome to get an (hbo) Max series of Cyborg. Something that can definitively introduce him to the public at large. That’s why I’d prefer to get rid of the full time faceplate and constant tech visuals in order to make it cost effective for production. It would be far more intriguing for an actor to want to play the role not having to be in prosthetics 24/7. The hook of a transformation would be entertaining to visualize. It could be the thing to finally answer the most burning questions about his make up.

As much as i enjoyed Doom Patrol (as a collective) i , naturally, focused on Cyborg (Jovian Wade?) when he was on screen. Putting aside how one might feel about the actor himself the way that Cyborg was presented from a costume perspective proved to me that .... it doesn't really work. The face piece was clunky and , unless the budget was higher, i'm not sure the torso could be pulled off well. It wasn't horrible but , well, look at it yourself (again):

JOvian.jpg

That's not a knock on the actor or costume designer. It's really the Cyborg character design itself. I like it in comics and in animation. It was horrible in the DC JL movie. I ..think the Rebirth Cyborg design could work with a slightly higher budget. Transformers have/had the same issue in their big screen translation. Anyway...i agree with what you've said. It would be far easier and appealing to an actor to ditch the face plate.

I've often said that other publishers would likely do a better job with DC's IP, but I wonder how true that really is? A lot of the guys who write for DC also write for those other companies. Would IDW or Boom! or someone really be that much better for Vic when the talent pool is largely the same? The biggest benefit is that the smaller publishers usually don't have a big name like Batman or Spider-Man to hog all the attention. But that only helps to ensure that Vic has a book, not that the book is good.

Reading this immediately made me think of IDW's "GI Joe" run with the I.P. . Specifically the
1) 2019 GI Joe comic which saw an alternative take on the classic premise:

When the United States are ruled by the command of COBRA, a secret organization named G.I. Joe must fight back by recruiting citizens, but the propaganda created by COBRA makes the Joes look like public criminals.

2) GI Joe: Cobra

Hawk assigns Chuckles to deep cover in an attempt to learn more about Cobra.[20] To this end, he became the Joes' undercover contact, with his only contact being Jinx. However, Cobra knew his identity from the start, and Chuckles was manipulated by Tomax and Xamot to become isolated and depressed.[21] He meets Cobra Commander, who reveals the charade, and is invited to join Cobra.[22] Chuckles agrees, and uses the opportunity to get closer to the Commander.

Those were only 2 examples of quite a few more unique takes on a classic I.P. in GI Joe that , sales aside, were really unique and took the franchise into new territory.

I'd love to see someone get a chance at doing the same with Cyborg. I think i would embrace an alt world Cyborg done well the way many embraced an alt world Miles Spiderman before he became a main universe fixture.

[Ascended]

it crossed my mind upon reading that interaction ...whether or not a Henry Irons and Victor Stone interaction could be written competently without Cyborg overshadowing Steel. I'd pay for that book.

I think it's gotta be hard to write Vic alongside a more 'traditional' super genius. But in the end I think it's a lot like Reed Richards and Tony Stark; they approach scientific problems and design solutions in very different ways, to the point where there's not really any direct competition. Vic's technopathy gives him a huge advantage, but Irons is likely the bigger IQ between them, which means he can contribute equally, just in a slightly different form.

I also found it interesting that i've got the "Cyborg itch that can't be scratched" at the moment that i've never felt for Steel despite some similarities.

I think Vic, as a non-legacy and prominent PoC, has different expectations than someone like Steel. I adore John Henry, but end of the day he's a Super, and what I consider 'quality use' for a legacy character isn't the same as what I demand for a stand-alone hero (which is how my brain sees Vic even if he's team ensemble 90% of the time). I've definitely had a "Steel" itch at times, but it's easier to scratch because Steel just has to be used well *within the parameters and confines of the Super-verse* as opposed to holding his own in the DCU at large.

The face piece was clunky and , unless the budget was higher, i'm not sure the torso could be pulled off well. It wasn't horrible but , well, look at it yourself

I don't get why the faceplate was so clunky. I know it's a low-budget show, but cosplayers make stuff far more streamlined and convincing than this. I feel like this is a failing of the show, not a hurdle in the character design.

The rest of the costume, I think, really highlights this. It's just a shirt with some printing on it, a glove with some plastic bits added in. It's not exactly high-end big-budget effort. And again, I'm not throwing shade at the show, the actor, or even the costume department. It is what it is and they had to spread their budget across the whole cast. But I wouldn't consider this show a metric for quality costume design.

Reading this immediately made me think of IDW's "GI Joe" run with the I.P. .

----

Those were only 2 examples of quite a few more unique takes on a classic I.P. in GI Joe that , sales aside, were really unique and took the franchise into new territory.

Not a GI Joe fan, but it sounds like a pretty interesting and unique spin. I think they've done the same with the ninja turtles too? It's possible a third-party publisher would do better with Vic, and I'd welcome it if it happened, but is this sorta improved treatment common? The indies I usually buy are self-owned IP like Atomic Robo and Radiant Black, or else really old pulp stuff like Green Hornet and Shadow, so not quite the same thing as a newer, active IP. But I'll take good Cyborg stories regardless of which publishing company's logo is on the cover.

I'd love to see someone get a chance at doing the same with Cyborg. I think i would embrace an alt world Cyborg done well the way many embraced an alt world Miles Spiderman before he became a main universe fixture.

Is it weird that I liked Miles more when he was still in the Ultimate universe? I feel like his story was stronger then.

Did you read Flashpoint? What did you think of how they handled Vic there?

[Customizer]

Vic's technopathy gives him a huge advantage, but Irons is likely the bigger IQ between them, which means he can contribute equally, just in a slightly different form.

Now that's something to think about....

I think Vic, as a non-legacy and prominent PoC, has different expectations than someone like Steel. I adore John Henry, but end of the day he's a Super, and what I consider 'quality use' for a legacy character isn't the same as what I demand for a stand-alone hero (which is how my brain sees Vic even if he's team ensemble 90% of the time). I've definitely had a "Steel" itch at times, but it's easier to scratch because Steel just has to be used well *within the parameters and confines of the Super-verse* as opposed to holding his own in the DCU at large.

It's interesting that you put it that way as i've purchased and read the last 5 issues of Steel and i actually had to read them a 2nd time to confirm what i noticed - that Steel wasn't doing much in the way of superhero activity in his own title. In fact i think the other Super...people (including Clark) have done *more* and i'm not including his niece in that group. Hours ago i said to myself that it seemed that issue 06 has to be when we'd see Steel cut loose. Foundations and motivations have been established so i can't imagine another full issue of.. exposition.

Not a GI Joe fan, but it sounds like a pretty interesting and unique spin. I think they've done the same with the ninja turtles too? It's possible a third-party publisher would do better with Vic, and I'd welcome it if it happened, but is this sorta improved treatment common? The indies I usually buy are self-owned IP like Atomic Robo and Radiant Black, or else really old pulp stuff like Green Hornet and Shadow, so not quite the same thing as a newer, active IP. But I'll take good Cyborg stories regardless of which publishing company's logo is on the cover.

TMNT is an evergreen product so they'll get "reimagined" @every 5 years. I'm not a TMNT fan but the 2012 series reimagining was a fantastic example of that being done exceptionally well. I was actually floored by the story telling, cgi and "cinematography" as someone that had no interest in TMNT product. I think a 3rd party handling Vic would be at minimum on par with what's been received thus far from DC. And, yes, reimaginings are usually pretty common as long as the core of the I.P. is still recognizable in my experience. Void Rivals is a great example of that in a way (extension of the Transformers universe). I'm reading Radiant Black at the moment and read Atomic Robo in the past (some of it at least). I enjoy / enjoyed both.

Is it weird that I liked Miles more when he was still in the Ultimate universe?

As a legacy character .... you know what was going to happen once he came over. *shrugs* It is what it is.

Did you read Flashpoint? What did you think of how they handled Vic there?

I've seen the animated film and i'm going to completely read the source material soon. It's a good example of what can potentially be done once the shackles are thrown off i.e. the main character is from a different universe and isn't challenging the status quo. I saw one Flashpoint panel where the Flash describes Victor as "...taller....broader" and i thought to myself... " Because he is being allowed to be." .

[kefkaroth]

totally agree to that. thats my number one pairing for victor, starfire and wonder girl are neck in neck 2 and 3 for victor.

[Ascended]

Now that's something to think about....

Right? Vic's a really smart dude, I'm not diminishing his brains at all, but he can literally talk to machines. Gives him a huge advantage over people who, on the baseline, are probably more intelligent and educated on a topic.

It's interesting that you put it that way as i've purchased and read the last 5 issues of Steel and i actually had to read them a 2nd time to confirm what i noticed - that Steel wasn't doing much in the way of superhero activity in his own title.

That's actually something I really like about the book. John's not just doing the same old superhero stuff. He's exploring what comes next. What if he built a suit of armor around the whole city, so nobody needed a Super to save them? I love that kind of post-cape exploration of heroism; the ideas of not only what comes next on a cultural/social level but what these people do when they start looking at new options and alternatives for themselves.

Steel's basically trying to put the Super family out of business in Metropolis. That's his whole drive here, trying to make the city safe enough to not need people like him and the Kents. I find it fascinating. Always with the caveat that I want to see the hero kick serious ass before it ends of course, but we seem to be getting that next issue so I'm pretty satisfied right now.

I think a 3rd party handling Vic would be at minimum on par with what's been received thus far from DC.

Certainly, but if all that paperwork and effort to get him to a third party publisher doesn't put better quality in our hands, then I don't see the point. But you've got a great argument here with solid examples, so if you think a third party would get us better Cyborg then sign me up.

As a legacy character .... you know what was going to happen once he came over. *shrugs* It is what it is.

Weird how Miles' own popularity became the trap that pulled him in. Too big to let 'waste' in the Ultimate universe, but not big enough to replace or surpass Parker in the 616.

First thing I thought when I heard about the new Ultimate line was 'thank the gods Miles can go home' but we're not getting that, poor kid is still stuck in the 616 with half the gravitas of his origin and a third of the pathos of his story torn out.

I've seen the animated film and i'm going to completely read the source material soon. I saw one Flashpoint panel where the Flash describes Victor as "...taller....broader" and i thought to myself... " Because he is being allowed to be."

Flashpoint wasn't a great comic, but it was better than its animated adaptation. And Vic really impressed me there too, I had basically the same thought you did. This is what Vic can be if DC stops holding him back. Hell, Vic can grow well beyond what Flashpoint did for him. He just needs a writer willing and able to put in the work, an editor to encourage it, and enough sales to give it the necessary time.

[skyvolt2000]

Certainly, but if all that paperwork and effort to get him to a third party publisher doesn't put better quality in our hands, then I don't see the point. But you've got a great argument here with solid examples, so if you think a third party would get us better Cyborg then sign me up.

A Cyborg book at say IDW would probably be a top 10 seller for them. His previous series was at 8K when it got axed. If that book was at IDW-it would have been top 10. Top 20 at Image.

For a book that does not leave a large pile unsold copies-that would be fine.

In terms of stories-I would suspect it would not be held hostage by whatever is going on at DC. So a writer would have more freedom to do what they can.

In other words the editorial staff at say IDW is NOT going to act like DC's.

Weird how Miles' own popularity became the trap that pulled him in. Too big to let 'waste' in the Ultimate universe, but not big enough to replace or surpass Parker in the 616.

If you thought the WAR of Lanterns, Hatefest for Jaime Reyes & Jason Rusch in the early days, The Gator movement, what was done to the Inhumans was all levels of toxic.

That would look tame if Marvel tried that. Aside from how badly Peter has been done in Amazing-letting those two co-exist is for the best.

First thing I thought when I heard about the new Ultimate line was 'thank the gods Miles can go home' but we're not getting that, poor kid is still stuck in the 616 with half the gravitas of his origin and a third of the pathos of his story torn out.

I think it's more of not wanting to exclude Miles from the main universe stories. Even with the multiverse.

[Customizer]

Right? Vic's a really smart dude, I'm not diminishing his brains at all, but he can literally talk to machines. Gives him a huge advantage over people who, on the baseline, are probably more intelligent and educated on a topic.

Again...that's something to think about. I can imagine some writers feeling as though they might have to cap Cyborgs abilities so that he isn't over powered (or at least use that excuse...). It's the equivalent of A.I. vs a human (The documentary "AlphaGo" comes to mind) - no matter how intelligent the human is eventually the A.I. becomes superior in an objective task.



Re: Steel i find myself continuing to purchase the title. It has story ingredients that i find appealing. I wanted to type " But..." lol. Meh. I'm just going to go along for the ride. Steel has enough good going for it thus far to prevent me from focusing on the "Why am i buying this title? " question that feels as though it wants to make its way to the forefront of my mind.

Certainly, but if all that paperwork and effort to get him to a third party publisher doesn't put better quality in our hands, then I don't see the point. But you've got a great argument here with solid examples, so if you think a third party would get us better Cyborg then sign me up.

100% in agreement there with the caveat that , in my case, one specific change to the character would be enough to make a significant difference in how i viewed the I.P. . With that said i realize for most the writing would be the primary issue with regard to whether moving Cyborg to a 3rd party publisher was worth it or not. For example my perspective on Semper Jr.'s work has changed in the last year. I'd view that level of work with some visual changes to Cyborg at a 3rd party publisher as an upgrade over the current state.

Flashpoint wasn't a great comic, but it was better than its animated adaptation. And Vic really impressed me there too, I had basically the same thought you did. This is what Vic can be if DC stops holding him back. Hell, Vic can grow well beyond what Flashpoint did for him. He just needs a writer willing and able to put in the work, an editor to encourage it, and enough sales to give it the necessary time.

I'm almost done with it I'll reserve my opinion until i'm completely finished.

If you thought the WAR of Lanterns, Hatefest for Jaime Reyes & Jason Rusch in the early days, The Gator movement, what was done to the Inhumans was all levels of toxic.

That would look tame if Marvel tried that. Aside from how badly Peter has been done in Amazing-letting those two co-exist is for the best.

I saw a small glimpse of that with the recent Miles Morales video game announcement.

[Ascended]

A Cyborg book at say IDW would probably be a top 10 seller for them. His previous series was at 8K when it got axed. If that book was at IDW-it would have been top 10. Top 20 at Image.

In other words the editorial staff at say IDW is NOT going to act like DC's.

He'd probably be top 5 for IDW, honestly.

And that would ensure his book stuck around long term, which would be to the good. That's a great point. I was just thinking in terms of story quality but being at a smaller company would definitely be a benefit for him, just in terms of how he's prioritized. I dunno if we'd actually get better comics out of it, but Vic would get more attention from the top offices.

That would look tame if Marvel tried that. Aside from how badly Peter has been done in Amazing-letting those two co-exist is for the best.

True. I dunno, I just miss Miles being on his own earth with his original history and origin. He doesn't feel as fun in the 616 to me, and feels like he's deeper in Parker's shadow than he was in the 1610.

I think it's more of not wanting to exclude Miles from the main universe stories. Even with the multiverse.

Which makes sense, I just don't like it as much personally.